Mooney Purchase - m20F sitting for 8 years

[KSMooniac]

28 minutes ago, Schllc said:

I meant the base price for an annual is before any additional items are found. 
I suppose that’s possible, but I’ve never had it happen to me. 
Ending up at 7k when it’s all said and done is a more realistic expectation for cost of a completed annual. 

Just to level-set the less experienced... an "annual inspection" is technically JUST an inspection.  Usually parts, repair labor, upgrades, whatever are bundled into the down-time and added to the cost.  So I agree that 7k as a realistic cost for a completed annual, that would include perhaps $2k-$3k of inspection + $4k-5k in parts, additional labor, etc.  

Example... tires are old but the owner stretches their life a bit to coincide with the annual inspection since the jacks will be out, and the gear has to be swung anyway.  A pair of tires and tubes might be $1k and many just consider that part of the cost of an annual, when that could have been done a month before the annual and then the annual is $1k cheaper.  Semantics, certainly, but should be understood for someone new getting estimates for an annual inspection.  I would ask for the flat-rate inspection cost with no parts, repairs, etc to compare apples-to-apples.  There should be 30-40 hours of labor in a quality Mooney annual inspection.  That does not include changing tires, installing a new battery, etc.

[katzhome]

2 hours ago, Mellow_Mooney said:

Awesome, thank you! LMK when you can.

 

Looking around elsewhere as well.

 

Hey @Mellow_Mooney,

 

My pre-buy was ~$2500 at an MSC and I did the pre-buy turning to an annual after review of the squawks with the sellers.  The addition of the annual was basically only another ~$1000.  Closure of the annual ended up being quite a bit higher than your estimate, but that was due to the number of squawks we found through the pre-buy and annual inspections.  In my case a good chunk of those were applied to reducing the purchase price, but I still spent ~2x more than the $7k you mentioned above (many of them non-airworthy items I chose to work now).  Remember it is a plane that has sat for a while, so there could be findings.  I needed to get new control cables and ends for throttle, mixture and prop for example.

I see further in the thread that you might also work with the seller's mechanic.  Just be aware, it is always good to work with an "uninterested 3rd party" to give an non-influenced assessment of the plane.  You want them to be your agent, not the seller's. 

Just to quote @carusoam, just my opinion from what I have dealt with on both boats and planes.  I'm not an expert and I didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn last night. 

 

Editing:  Seeing @KSMooniac reply directly above, correct, I'm considering the cost of completing the annual, not the annual inspection itself.  I'll have to dig back on how much that cost versus the closeout work.

Edited January 20, 2023 by katzhome
Updated annual cost.

[Mellow_Mooney]

Thanks for your responses guys. I had also thought it should only be 2-3 for an annual inspection so that's why I was so surprised. 

 

From the conversation I had with the mechanic I think he meant that was the cost to inspect... didn't realize he might have meant it to be the cost of inspection and repair.

 

I reached out to him again but closed for the day... will try him in the morning before I head out. 

 

Will update after the day tomorrow but probably won't be getting back till late. 

 

Thanks all!

 

[Guest]

The actual cost is a secondary issue.  A freelance maintainer may charge $50.00 per hour, a small shop at a country airport may be $100.00 per hour while a big city shop may be much higher.

How many hours of labour are allocated is a more accurate measure in my opinion.

[jetdriven]

Spot on.  The more the look the more they find, or dont miss.

[Will.iam]

23 minutes ago, Mellow_Mooney said:

Thanks for your responses guys. I had also thought it should only be 2-3 for an annual inspection so that's why I was so surprised. 

 

From the conversation I had with the mechanic I think he meant that was the cost to inspect... didn't realize he might have meant it to be the cost of inspection and repair.

 

I reached out to him again but closed for the day... will try him in the morning before I head out. 

 

Will update after the day tomorrow but probably won't be getting back till late. 

 

Thanks all!

 

I would be highly surprised if that was to repair as he has no idea what things need to be fixed. My MSC first annual with my new to me plane was $2100 for the inspection flat rate. It included the oil change but not the oil or the filter. Everything else was extra and i had alot of things done to it. They say budget 10% of the cost of the plane for your first annual as an estimate i would say that’s very good sound advice. 

[Pinecone]

Agree.  No way of knowing what will need repair, until the inspection.

My recent annual was about 34 hours for the annual part, at $105 per hour.

Total was a bit under twice that, but most of that were things I told the shop to fix.  IIRC, only two things found as part of the annual.  

[rbp]

On 1/16/2023 at 1:51 PM, Mellow_Mooney said:

I'm taking this as a red flag and about to release the plane... but wanted to get your thoughts on this first? Any truth to what he is saying?

 

any seller who won't let you or your designee go over the plane with a fine-tooth comb is either (a) hiding something or (b) not detail-oriented and probably let a lot of things slide (see a).

[Mellow_Mooney]

Hey everyone, thought I’d give you an update. 
 

I’m officially an aircraft owner!

 

Had the mechanics spend two days looking over everything mentioned and all turned out great. Just a couple of squawks to bleed the brakes, the flaps and added an ADSB on the tail (owner paid for it). Also a small amount of mouse poop in the insulation… but all tubular structure was checked and good to go. Insulation removed. 
 

Huge thank you to all of you and also a big thank you to Tom @47U  

 

Tom went above and beyond, helped me find a good mechanic, helped identify additional areas to check and offered his own help personally to ferry if I needed. 
 

Excited to join the Mooney club and hope one day that I can pay it forward.
 

Fly safe everyone! And if you see a guy in a Mooney with a gigantic smile waving at you in the LA area… I apologize in advance.  

[carusoam]

Melllow,

Pics are a must!

Did you get transition training set up?

How about insurance?

Registration?

You probably have questions you haven’t thought about yet…

Congrats,

-a-

[katzhome]

2 hours ago, Mellow_Mooney said:

Hey everyone, thought I’d give you an update. 
 

I’m officially an aircraft owner!

 

Had the mechanics spend two days looking over everything mentioned and all turned out great. Just a couple of squawks to bleed the brakes, the flaps and added an ADSB on the tail (owner paid for it). Also a small amount of mouse poop in the insulation… but all tubular structure was checked and good to go. Insulation removed. 
 

Huge thank you to all of you and also a big thank you to Tom @47U  

 

Tom went above and beyond, helped me find a good mechanic, helped identify additional areas to check and offered his own help personally to ferry if I needed. 
 

Excited to join the Mooney club and hope one day that I can pay it forward.
 

Fly safe everyone! And if you see a guy in a Mooney with a gigantic smile waving at you in the LA area… I apologize in advance.  

Congratulations @Mellow_Mooney!  If you end up in the SF Bay Area send a note!  Welcome to plane ownership! 

[Mellow_Mooney]

On 2/1/2023 at 11:09 PM, carusoam said:

Melllow,

Pics are a must!

Did you get transition training set up?

How about insurance?

Registration?

You probably have questions you haven’t thought about yet…

Congrats,

-a-

Pics coming soon! Will be having it ferried to my home airport next weekend. Transition training already set up with a local CFI that is a Mooney owner as well. 
 

Insurance all set (pretty expensive because I don’t have much experience in make/type). 
 

Registration all set as well - bank handled it for me. Will be following up with an updated title search down the line to make sure everything finalized correctly. 
 

thank you! Incredibly stoked 

[Mellow_Mooney]

On 2/1/2023 at 11:11 PM, katzhome said:

Congratulations @Mellow_Mooney!  If you end up in the SF Bay Area send a note!  Welcome to plane ownership! 

Sounds good I will! Have friends up there so will definitely be visiting sometime this year. 
 

thank you! 

[chriscalandro]

This thread is a great example of being reasonable, knowing what is reasonable, and not listening to unreasonable people on the internet. 
 

I think you did this right. The owner was right about Savy, and nobody is going to let you take apart a working engine and create potential problems on something that has no problems. 
 

oil analysis will give you all the answers you were looking for. 
 

you appear to have good judgement and a filter for all the bad advice that lives on this site. I suspect you won’t last long on here. 

Edited February 5, 2023 by chriscalandro

[jetdriven]

Theres a lot of experience on here, and a lot of them are telling you the engine is a huge expense, and a large risk. But if  you've already decided to buy the plane, that doesnt matter.  Keep in touch and let us know how the first couple years go.

[katzhome]

3 hours ago, Mellow_Mooney said:

Sounds good I will! Have friends up there so will definitely be visiting sometime this year. 
 

thank you! 

And I'm trying to get some more experience heading down to SoCal and points further south...so I'll ping when I head down that way.

 

The engine is something you go into with eyes open.  I did what I could to get comfortable with my mid-high time engine (1500 hours), and just got my first 25 hour oil change report back.  So far nothing concerning.  I have prepared myself to be ready to overhaul any time in the next few years, but will be pleasantly surprised if we are able to keep running up to and past TBO. 

To me you looked at the risks and rewards and made the right decision for you, and that is what you have to do with these things.

Good luck with the transition training!  Mine was fun, getting the additional solo time was actually harder with all the weather we have had out here in CA this year.

 

[hais]

3 hours ago, chriscalandro said:

you appear to have good judgement and a filter for all the bad advice that lives on this site. I suspect you won’t last long on here

I was under the impression that it is the diversity of opinions that makes a site like this valuable. One may not like one or the other perspective, but it is certainly good to know about them. 
I do hope that the OP did find MS informative and will encourage others to participate. 

[chriscalandro]

The problem is that some opinions are based in fantasy and unrealistic expectations. 

[carusoam]

5 minutes ago, chriscalandro said:

The problem is that some opinions are based in fantasy and unrealistic expectations. 

Chris,

Everyone on MS has a variety of skills…

Each has a valid opinion…

And… they are all welcomed… 

Even long after they are no longer a Mooney owner…

Don’t expect that we are suddenly going to throw the baby out with the bath water…

Welcome to MooneySpace!  
 

I hope it’s not too friendly for you here…

Best regards,

-a-

[MikeOH]

6 hours ago, chriscalandro said:

you appear to have good judgement and a filter for all the bad advice that lives on this site. I suspect you won’t last long on here. 

And yet, you are still here….what does that imply about your judgement?

[Mellow_Mooney]

I took everyone’s advice on here and am thankful for all of it. So even if you think I made the wrong decision - thanks for letting me know what to look out for.

I looked at the risk, decided it was right for me, and pulled the trigger. 
 

For reference - Borescope and compressions were immaculate. I called all the previous mechanics that worked on it, did my due diligence and found out about the entire history of the plane. Checked the tubular structure, the wing spars, literally everything that was listed and recommended on this post and with a 3rd party mechanic the seller agreed to fly the plane to. Everything came back in great condition. Mechanic even told me he would buy the plane if I didn’t…

Only thing I didn’t check was a cylinder which my mechanic and I agreed is probably a large undertaking for a seller.

I negotiated the price, and am comfortable with the reality that this might be a dud engine in a year or two. To me - I am getting a plane that I can invest in and mold into my perfect aircraft. Which is what I want to do. I might even be getting the deal of a lifetime - but I’m not betting on it. 
 

I’ll follow up with you guys down the road of course, but I think I’m buying a decent plane at a reasonable cost.
 

Will still follow up with photos as well! 
 

 

[carusoam]

Sounds like the objective was…

1) Get to know this plane the best way possible…

2) Without going beyond financial reality…

 

There is always risk involved when purchasing a machine…

Some machines don’t get warranties…

Even with warranties… there is still risk of it breaking down…

 

Call it… mission accomplished!

Great plane, great price…

Everyone looks forward to their first annual as the next checkpoint in the schedule…

Sooo… build up the fin reserves again, fly the wings off of it…

Get to a Mooney fly in!

Go Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-

[PT20J]

29 minutes ago, Mellow_Mooney said:

I took everyone’s advice on here and am thankful for all of it. So even if you think I made the wrong decision - thanks for letting me know what to look out for.

I looked at the risk, decided it was right for me, and pulled the trigger. 
 

For reference - Borescope and compressions were immaculate. I called all the previous mechanics that worked on it, did my due diligence and found out about the entire history of the plane. Checked the tubular structure, the wing spars, literally everything that was listed and recommended on this post and with a 3rd party mechanic the seller agreed to fly the plane to. Everything came back in great condition. Mechanic even told me he would buy the plane if I didn’t…

Only thing I didn’t check was a cylinder which my mechanic and I agreed is probably a large undertaking for a seller.

I negotiated the price, and am comfortable with the reality that this might be a dud engine in a year or two. To me - I am getting a plane that I can invest in and mold into my perfect aircraft. Which is what I want to do. I might even be getting the deal of a lifetime - but I’m not betting on it. 
 

I’ll follow up with you guys down the road of course, but I think I’m buying a decent plane at a reasonable cost.
 

Will still follow up with photos as well! 
 

 

I did something similar when I bought my airplane. Ended up replacing the engine sooner rather than later, but I was prepared for that, so no big deal, The most important thing is a good sound airframe -- everything else is bolted on,

[chriscalandro]

I did the same. I bought what most here would have considered junk. It was a project I was able to keep flying until the projects ended. 
 

I’ve since sold it and the new owner sent it to paint.

through the pre buy and through the paint stripping process the response was the same - “this is a great example underneath the terrible paint || we didn’t find any corrosion issues at all (except for some flap hinges which are cheap)”

 

This from an airplane that sat for many years in the south, had a gear up after sitting for a while, and after being based outside on the ramp in South Florida for several years. When it comes out of paint it WILL be the nicest C in the fleet without question. 
 

If people like you and I didn’t exist and followed the advice here, there wouldn’t be a single Mooney flying unless the current owner got it straight from the factory. 
 

I’m sure even though you didn’t pull the cylinder it’s going to take care of you as long as you take care of it. If it ain’t broke don’t take it apart! 

Edited February 6, 2023 by chriscalandro

[Pinecone]

17 hours ago, chriscalandro said:

I think you did this right. The owner was right about Savy, and nobody is going to let you take apart a working engine and create potential problems on something that has no problems. 

Hmm, on my prebuy they pulled the lifters at my request (Continental).  And it was good they did, they were all pitted.  Seller paid for a set of new lifters.