N9453V Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 I was parked at SAT on January 25th when a hail storm blew through early in the morning. The METAR for SAT was: SPECI KSAT 250724Z 15017G24KT 1SM R12R/3500VP6000FT +TSGRRA BR BKN008CB BKN043 OVC075 21/19 A2978 RMK AO2 SFC VIS 2 GRB22 TS CNS LTGICCG ALQDS MOVG NE GR 1/4 P0005 At first it looked like it was just a few dimples on the ailerons, but after washing the plane, it was clear there was more damage to the ailerons and the elevator as well and a few very minor dings to the wings and fuselage (I'm assuming the cost of repair them exceeds the planes' value so I'm not going to bother). I'd appreciate any insight on two questions: 1) When does hail damage become an airworthiness issue rather than a cosmetic one? I had an A&P look over the damage and he said it was cosmetic and not necessary to fix, but I'd like to know if Mooney has any engineering guidance on when damaged flight controls should be replaced. 2) If I go through repairing/replacing ailerons and the elevator (if possible), what are the best options? I opened a claim with my insurance company and so far got a quote from Mooney (the response time was very impressive) for new ailerons or aileron skins. I am still waiting for a quote from Dugosh to install new ailerons or re-skin the old ones. I noticed the elevator damage later so I haven't got any information on that yet. For those curious, below is what Mooney sent me: Your aircraft uses the part numbers below: 230015-503 - LH Aileron Assembly - Currently, No Stock $2824.15 - We should have some built in approx 4 weeks 230015-504 - RH Aileron Assembly - Currently, No Stock $2824.15 - We should have some built in approx 4 weeks We do have the Skins in stock: if you wanted to reskin 230015-011 - Top Skin LH - In Stock $203.64 230015-012 - Top Skin RH - In Stock $203.64 Thanks, -Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbridges Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 I know this is retarded sounding, but do they not offer dent removal services for planes like they do in cars? I've had it done several times on my cars for door dings, and the results have been very impressive. It seems like it would be an option for upper fuselage hail damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnggreen Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Rob, A hail dent is simply a stretch of the spot in the aluminum. Aluminum and steel behave differently to being stretched and aluminum has almost no "recover" characteristics. Once stretched, it's done. There are a lot of airplanes flying around with minor cosmetic hail damage. From my experience, it has to get pretty severe to affect the flying characteristics. I once bought a Musketeer as an instrument trainer for my boys and completely missed very light hail damage on the airplane. You could not see it without a reflection from bright sunshine and the day I inspected it, it was cloudy; to my chagrin. I do know of instances where an airplane was bondoed and painted and the new owner didn't find it out until years later when they had the airplane repainted. It came as a pretty big surprise. Jgreen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N601RX Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Are you considering a repaint in the next couple of years? If you are this would be a good opertunity to do it and let the insurance money offset some of the cost. The control surfaces will have to be removed and repainted anyway and the spotted hail damage on the wings and fuselage will require some touch paint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbridges Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 John, thanks. It crossed my mind about the steel vs. aluminum. Makes a lot of sense now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MATTS875 Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 If you opted for the skin replacement, what does it normally cost labor wise to have that done? I have small hail dimples on my ailerons also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piloto Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Factory new airplanes have dimples too. Some are caused by accidental handling or tool dropping. Typically these dimple are filled at the paint shop. Sometimes is quite an endeavour to replace a wing skin section that also contains integral tanks. A shop replacing a skin may create dimples on the new skin because of rivet gun setting or accidental handling. It is easier, cheaper and safer to just put filler on the dimples. José 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSMooniac Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Check with Don Maxwell regarding re-skinning the control surfaces. He now has a source that he claims is doing excellent work and making them perfectly straight, which is quite difficult. For "a few minor dings" on the wings and fuselage, I would simply fill them with lightweight filler during the next paint job. If it looks like a golf ball, though, then you need to think about skin replacement or scrapping the plane I'm afraid. As Jose pointed out, replacing skins can lead to collateral damage unless you use a very good sheet metal mechanic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N33GG Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 On a positive note, a few light hail dimples might make you go faster! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 I have been told that depending on the depth of the damage that the alclad on the opposite side of the skin (opposite impact side) can be compromised. Has anyone else heard this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 double... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Pleisse Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Hey Andrew, I couldn't begin to help you make the call about your control surfaces. However, if you choose to replace them, it is an all or nothing prospect. Buy factory new or don't do it. Salvage is fine if the parts are correct and OEM. I had an aileron recreated by a Mooney Service Center (who shall remain nameless) and they botched it. Not only that, they charged my insurance the equivelant money for factory new. I spent years and thousands of dollars (not proud of this) tracking down what I thought were rigging issues. I had one bad aileron that messed up the enitre plane. Please get good advice and take it seriously. As for the fuselage, etc. Just do bondo/or equivelant at your next pain job. Just saw Scott's post.... D-Max is a great bet, but make sure your plane flies straight and get an unconditional, money back garuntee. You probably won't need it, buuuuuuut.... just say'in. A tenth of an inch bow or tightness from riveting makes a control surface useless, IMHO. They test fly your plane and tab the control surfaces until it flies straight. No matter what they do, you'll walk out with the plane flying straight. The forces of a poorly contsructed control surface will work against the tabbing and eventually, the plane will work itself out of straight and level. So it could take time to realize you have a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 I am with John on this one, do not reskin a Mooney aileron. You leave the shop with it and the insurance company is done with you. Then you find out your reskinned aileron is not straight an d no one will make it right. They need ot be in a jig when reassembled, and only Mooney can do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N9453V Posted February 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 I appreciate all the helpful advice from people who've clearly gone through this before. Given what I'm hearing it sounds like replacing is the way to go, but I'm thinking with everything involved in balancing and re-painting, etc... and making sure the plane still flies straight it may make sense to wait until I have the whole aircraft re-painted and have arranged for a hangar at KBTR (53V is living outside under a cover right now). Is there any drawback (other than possibly paying more later) for accepting an insurance settlement, but not getting the work done right away? This would be my first claim since I bought the plane. My agent (Falcon) told me that I'd likely see no more than a 10% premium increase especially if the claim is settled for under $10k. I forgot to attach some pics of the damage to the first post, so a few are attached below. Thanks, -Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Thats funny, Falcon repeatedly assured us that our rates would not increas since it was an act of nature, not an at-fault claim. We have the same issue. Ailerons are 2600$, but not available. Wait until you see the price for elevators, over 5K, and they arent going to be made probably ever again, their stamping machine is broken. So the liability for future cost increases is transferred to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 duplicate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwilkins Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Quote: N9453VIs there any drawback (other than possibly paying more later) for accepting an insurance settlement, but not getting the work done right away? 1. You might check with Falcon to make sure accepting a claim without getting the work done is an option. The value of the aircraft is being reduced by some amount; they may want to make a hull value adjustment if you take the money without getting the work done, or they just may not want to do it. You are reducing the value of the aircraft and (probbaly) still asking them to carry the same hull value insurance. 2. If Don Maxwell has someone who re-skins control surfaces for him, you can be assured that they will be done correctly. Asking for a flight acceptance is a good idea, but Maxwell would not be using someone to reskin controls if there was any question. 3. The old Mooney Modworks used to advertise paintless dent repairs for hail damage. Don't know how well it worked, but they were very proud of it. So apparently they wanted people to belive that it was possible. These guys http://www.dentmagix.com also claim to work on aircraft. Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tony Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Well I'm not a materials engineer, but the folk lore around the airport here is that on a hot day, if you put some dry ice on the dimple, the aluminum might shrink enough (due to the thermal coefficient of expansion) that the dent will pull itself out. I have not tried it myself. Just wondering if anyone on this board has ever tried it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parker_Woodruff Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 I was at Don Maxwell in Longview TX dropping my plane off for annual. IIRC he has a few ailerons in stock. (903) 643-9902 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nels Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Quote: tony Well I'm not a materials engineer, but the folk lore around the airport here is that on a hot day, if you put some dry ice on the dimple, the aluminum might shrink enough (due to the thermal coefficient of expansion) that the dent will pull itself out. I have not tried it myself. Just wondering if anyone on this board has ever tried it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Becca Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 Quote: N9453V I appreciate all the helpful advice from people who've clearly gone through this before. Given what I'm hearing it sounds like replacing is the way to go, but I'm thinking with everything involved in balancing and re-painting, etc... and making sure the plane still flies straight it may make sense to wait until I have the whole aircraft re-painted and have arranged for a hangar at KBTR (53V is living outside under a cover right now). Is there any drawback (other than possibly paying more later) for accepting an insurance settlement, but not getting the work done right away? This would be my first claim since I bought the plane. My agent (Falcon) told me that I'd likely see no more than a 10% premium increase especially if the claim is settled for under $10k. I forgot to attach some pics of the damage to the first post, so a few are attached below. Thanks, -Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parker_Woodruff Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 Quote: Becca Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaV8or Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 Quote: johnggreen I do know of instances where an airplane was bondoed and painted and the new owner didn't find it out until years later when they had the airplane repainted. It came as a pretty big surprise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwilkins Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 Quote: DaV8or So, these were good repairs. If no one can tell the difference, the aircraft painters did their job well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 Quote: Parker_Woodruff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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