G5 IGRF Database out of date

[Ragsf15e]

See picture below.  I saw this today for the first time (possibly due to the new year?).  Small exclamation mark sign, menu button, then this message.  I tried to research on Garmins website, but I only found information for updating the G1000 and G3X.  G3X automatically updates with a navdata update.  I’m pretty sure updating to the newest G5 software version updates the IGRF (and I have 4 year old G5 software), but I’ve always been skeptical of updating something that’s working perfectly…

and yes, because I know you’ll look, I was going very slow.  We were sightseeing!

[AIREMATT]

Sounds like it is part of the Nav Database update for the G5 since they don’t list it by specific model for the differences.

Based on software versions it may fail to update it also says. Plane is still in annual or I’d go see what mine says as of New Years. I might be in the same boat.

https://support.garmin.com/en-US/?faq=hBDN10RJp5ABaza3SZGG09&productID=570665&tab=topics

 

 

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, AIREMATT said:

Sounds like it is part of the Nav Database update for the G5 since they don’t list it by specific model for the differences.

Based on software versions it may fail to update it also says. Plane is still in annual or I’d go see what mine says as of New Years. I might be in the same boat.

https://support.garmin.com/en-US/?faq=hBDN10RJp5ABaza3SZGG09&productID=570665&tab=topics

 

 

Yes, it did seem like other systems (G3X) updated through a navdata update, but the G5 doesn't have navdata as far as I know, so I think the only thing to do is a SW update?  I was a little confused on the website because it didn't address G5s specifically.

[hammdo]

https://www8.garmin.com/support/collection.jsp?product=K10-00280-00

https://www8.garmin.com/support/download_details.jsp?id=10739

latest firmware update for G5 - a Garmin shop can update…

must do both if you have 2 G5s…

-Don

[jlunseth]

I vote with hammdo. Looks like a firmware update to me, not a nav data update. Though that’s the first time I have seen a computer say it wants new firmware. Usually if the old is working you can leave it alone. Pretty sure you need a shop to update.

[JimB]

Its not firmware or navdata really. It is magnetometer data. The magnetic poles drift and the magnetometer needs to know where to point you. This needs updated every so often. It is part of the general software for the unit. IGRF stands for International Geomagnetic Reference Field

[Ragsf15e]

Seems we don’t need a shop either.  I’m gonna try updating it this weekend from the software on garmins website and see if that gives it a new magnetic reference.

[PT20J]

IGRF is part of the ADAHRS software. It was updated with the G3X Touch software release v9.00 which included G5 v8.00, so it should be in that release for the G5. Garmin did not go out of its way to make this clear. 

 

[PT20J]

As far as doing it yourself, Garmin’s position (and therefore presumeably the FAA’s) is that updating software to a certified system requires a logbook entry, so if you do it yourself, you might want to have a friendly A&P sign it off.

[Vance Harral]

I am presently in a "discussion" with Garmin Aviation Support about how the G5 uses magnetic deviation data, and the person responding to my inquiries keeps bringing up the IGRF database.  He is not doing a very good job, IMO, of explaining what this is used for.  I'm hoping maybe the collective wisdom of Mooneyspace can shed some light on this, and it seems germane to this thread.

In general, magnetic variation data - which is what I understand the IGRF to contain - is used to calculate True Heading given Magnetic Heading.  I can see True Heading being part of an AHRS compensation algorithm, though I don't understand the details.  But what prompted my query to Garmin Aviation Support was a statement in Section 1.4.1.2 of the latest version of the G5 Pilot's Guide at https://static.garmin.com/pumac/190-01112-12_j.pdf; which says, "The G5 corrects for shifts and variations in the Earth’s magnetic field by applying the Magnetic Field Variation Database."  That section of the Manual is titled "G5 Heading", and the implication is that the G5 uses magnetic variation as part of its heading algorithm, i.e. that it does/could/might display true heading on its DG/HSI page, rather than magnetic heading.  I thought to myself that surely that can't be the case, but wanted clarification from Garmin.  So I asked them about it.

The reply from Garmin Aviation Support about this - after a delay of over a month - was as follows:

Thank you for contacting Garmin International.

The G5 can display both. 

When the GMU is connected, the G5 will display magnetic heading.

If that connection is lost, then it will provide True Heading provided by GPS track information.

This video further explains IGRF data and what we do with that:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fapV6WClc7Y&t=1s

The first part of the response make sense: when a GMU11 magnetometer is connected to a G5, its DG/HSI page displays magnetic heading.  As far as I know, the system has no need of IGRF (variation) data to do this, but I'm ready to be corrected on that if someone knows differently.  Again, I can see how the AHRS compensation algorithm might need true heading as an input, and therefore need variation data to compute it from magnetic heading, but that's independent of the heading displayed on the DG/HSI page

The second part of the response, regarding the G5 showing "True Heading", makes no sense to me.  If a magnetometer is not connected to the G5, I don't see how it could possibly show any kind of heading, either magnetic or true.  I do understand that the G5 shows GPS track without a magnetometer (indeed, our first G5 was installed standalone as an AI and that's how it worked until we installed the second one as an HSI).  But track != heading, and I'm starting to think whoever wrote the manual either doesn't understand that, or is a poor communicator.

I wrote back to Garmin Aviation Support and asked, "If an aircraft equipped with a G5, but without a GMU magnetometer, is pointed true north; and flying into a headwind so strong that its ground track is actually true south; what 'heading' will the G5 display?"  That was a week ago, still waiting for a response.

 

[Ragsf15e]

14 minutes ago, Vance Harral said:

I am presently in a "discussion" with Garmin Aviation Support about how the G5 uses magnetic deviation data, and the person responding to my inquiries keeps bringing up the IGRF database.  He is not doing a very good job, IMO, of explaining what this is used for.  I'm hoping maybe the collective wisdom of Mooneyspace can shed some light on this, and it seems germane to this thread.

In general, magnetic variation data - which is what I understand the IGRF to contain - is used to calculate True Heading given Magnetic Heading.  I can see True Heading being part of an AHRS compensation algorithm, though I don't understand the details.  But what prompted my query to Garmin Aviation Support was a statement in Section 1.4.1.2 of the latest version of the G5 Pilot's Guide at https://static.garmin.com/pumac/190-01112-12_j.pdf; which says, "The G5 corrects for shifts and variations in the Earth’s magnetic field by applying the Magnetic Field Variation Database."  That section of the Manual is titled "G5 Heading", and the implication is that the G5 uses magnetic variation as part of its heading algorithm, i.e. that it does/could/might display true heading on its DG/HSI page, rather than magnetic heading.  I thought to myself that surely that can't be the case, but wanted clarification from Garmin.  So I asked them about it.

The reply from Garmin Aviation Support about this - after a delay of over a month - was as follows:

Thank you for contacting Garmin International.

The G5 can display both. 

When the GMU is connected, the G5 will display magnetic heading.

If that connection is lost, then it will provide True Heading provided by GPS track information.

This video further explains IGRF data and what we do with that:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fapV6WClc7Y&t=1s

The first part of the response make sense: when a GMU11 magnetometer is connected to a G5, its DG/HSI page displays magnetic heading.  As far as I know, the system has no need of IGRF (variation) data to do this, but I'm ready to be corrected on that if someone knows differently.  Again, I can see how the AHRS compensation algorithm might need true heading as an input, and therefore need variation data to compute it from magnetic heading, but that's independent of the heading displayed on the DG/HSI page

The second part of the response, regarding the G5 showing "True Heading", makes no sense to me.  If a magnetometer is not connected to the G5, I don't see how it could possibly show any kind of heading, either magnetic or true.  I do understand that the G5 shows GPS track without a magnetometer (indeed, our first G5 was installed standalone as an AI and that's how it worked until we installed the second one as an HSI).  But track != heading, and I'm starting to think whoever wrote the manual either doesn't understand that, or is a poor communicator.

I wrote back to Garmin Aviation Support and asked, "If an aircraft equipped with a G5, but without a GMU magnetometer, is pointed true north; and flying into a headwind so strong that its ground track is actually true south; what 'heading' will the G5 display?"  That was a week ago, still waiting for a response.

 

One data point… if you cut power to the gmu-11, you get track as you indicated… however, I have the internal g5 gps on.  With no gps or gmu-11 available, I suspect the heading block is Red X.  True heading seems strange…

[Ragsf15e]

43 minutes ago, PT20J said:

IGRF is part of the ADAHRS software. It was updated with the G3X Touch software release v9.00 which included G5 v8.00, so it should be in that release for the G5. Garmin did not go out of its way to make this clear. 

 

Might be nice to have included a reference to IGRF in the version notes too if we’re all (ok, those of us delaying updates) going to be popping an error…

[Ragsf15e]

I’ll add one last thing if we’re doing a little Garmin bashing (although my G5s have been great).  Shouldn’t the error message on the unit exactly match the error message in the pilots guide?  I was in the aircraft, planning to fly.  I saw the error, so I pulled out my pilot’s guide and flight manual insert to look up the error.  Unfortunately, it doesn’t exist?  In fact, “IGRF” isn’t in any error according to the pilots guide.  The one on my G5 screen vs the one in the manual below.  I think they are the same error, but they should be identical, no?

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, PT20J said:

As far as doing it yourself, Garmin’s position (and therefore presumeably the FAA’s) is that updating software to a certified system requires a logbook entry, so if you do it yourself, you might want to have a friendly A&P sign it off.

Owner-performed preventive maintenance should be accompanied by logbook entries, too, (e.g., oil changes), so that doesn't mean an A&P is required.   This is one of those muddy areas where there's a lot of fingers pointed in different directions.   The main opinion that matters is the IA that signs off the annual, so they're the one to ask whether it's okay for the owner to do it.    Any "maintenance" is supposed to be accompanied by a logbook entry, but an owner can do it for anything for which an A&P is not required.   FAR 43.9 describes how the entry should be made and owner/operators just use their pilot certificate number for the entry.
 

[Vance Harral]

I have an opinion on who can sign off the work, but I'll refrain from posting it, because @EricJ is correct that my opinion doesn't matter.  Regardless of who performs the work and makes an entry in the logbook, though, note that avionics firmware upgrades often require printing a new version of the AFMS that accompanies the firmware update and putting it in the aircraft with the POH/AFM; as well as printing new ICAW documents (if any), and filing them with the aircraft records.  If you don't do at least the former, you're technically unairworthy.

This AFMS/ICAW paperwork requirement is often missed during firmware updates, even by good, responsible shops, so I can sort of understand why Garmin only wants their (presumably trained) dealers to do the work.  But they have little room to be high-and-mighty about it.  Among other reasons, @Ragsf15e is right to complain about the details of the IGRF error message.  There is a "Revision 8" of the AFMS that accompanies the v8.00 firmware, but the table of error messages on its last page still says "Magnetic field database out of date", rather than "Magnetometer IGRF data out of date".  Looks like the workflow at Garmin let that discrepancy slip through.

[EricJ]

26 minutes ago, Vance Harral said:

I have an opinion on who can sign off the work, but I'll refrain from posting it, because @EricJ is correct that my opinion doesn't matter.  Regardless of who performs the work and makes an entry in the logbook, though, note that avionics firmware upgrades often require printing a new version of the AFMS that accompanies the firmware update and putting it in the aircraft with the POH/AFM; as well as printing new ICAW documents (if any), and filing them with the aircraft records.  If you don't do at least the former, you're technically unairworthy.

This AFMS/ICAW paperwork requirement is often missed during firmware updates, even by good, responsible shops, so I can sort of understand why Garmin only wants their (presumably trained) dealers to do the work.  But they have little room to be high-and-mighty about it.  Among other reasons, @Ragsf15e is right to complain about the details of the IGRF error message.  There is a "Revision 8" of the AFMS that accompanies the v8.00 firmware, but the table of error messages on its last page still says "Magnetic field database out of date", rather than "Magnetometer IGRF data out of date".  Looks like the workflow at Garmin let that discrepancy slip through.

It is unfortunate that the regs aren't better defined in this area, as it keeps coming up.   Avidyne used to publish instructions on doing a swap out from a GNS to an Avidyne IFD as a preventive maintenance slide-in replacement, but later revised it (I'm assuming under guidance from a regulator) that because it involved an AFMS update it required an authorized installer to install the new AFMS as a "major modification".    So now they say not only is an authorized installer required, a 337 is as well.   I've never been able to get direction to a regulation to point to that clarifies this, but it apparently even tripped up Avidyne and they've been doing this a while.

With a firmware update it seems to be even hazier and I think this is why the manufacturers give muddy advice here, too, because it's not very straightforward in the regs.   If there was an answer with broad consensus they'd probably give it, but there's usually a lot of handwaving.   For a case like this where there isn't any AFMS or other document change, it's a good question.   If an A&P does the update there's clearly no issue, but for those for whom that is a significant hurdle for whatever reason, if the IA is good with it, he's The Man.
 

[AIREMATT]

Found this today. Had to Google to find it.
Garmin web still shows Version 8.0 current if you follow the links from their G5 page.

This link went direct to the page showing 8.17 current.

https://www8.garmin.com/support/download_details.jsp?id=10355

Edited January 3, 2023 by AIREMATT

[hammdo]

I don’t see ‘certified’ or ‘STC’ on that link…

curious…

this one I have:

 

-Don

[PT20J]

6 hours ago, Vance Harral said:

I am presently in a "discussion" with Garmin Aviation Support about how the G5 uses magnetic deviation data, and the person responding to my inquiries keeps bringing up the IGRF database.  He is not doing a very good job, IMO, of explaining what this is used for.  I'm hoping maybe the collective wisdom of Mooneyspace can shed some light on this, and it seems germane to this thread.

In general, magnetic variation data - which is what I understand the IGRF to contain - is used to calculate True Heading given Magnetic Heading.  I can see True Heading being part of an AHRS compensation algorithm, though I don't understand the details.  But what prompted my query to Garmin Aviation Support was a statement in Section 1.4.1.2 of the latest version of the G5 Pilot's Guide at https://static.garmin.com/pumac/190-01112-12_j.pdf; which says, "The G5 corrects for shifts and variations in the Earth’s magnetic field by applying the Magnetic Field Variation Database."  That section of the Manual is titled "G5 Heading", and the implication is that the G5 uses magnetic variation as part of its heading algorithm, i.e. that it does/could/might display true heading on its DG/HSI page, rather than magnetic heading.  I thought to myself that surely that can't be the case, but wanted clarification from Garmin.  So I asked them about it.

The reply from Garmin Aviation Support about this - after a delay of over a month - was as follows:

Thank you for contacting Garmin International.

The G5 can display both. 

When the GMU is connected, the G5 will display magnetic heading.

If that connection is lost, then it will provide True Heading provided by GPS track information.

This video further explains IGRF data and what we do with that:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fapV6WClc7Y&t=1s

The first part of the response make sense: when a GMU11 magnetometer is connected to a G5, its DG/HSI page displays magnetic heading.  As far as I know, the system has no need of IGRF (variation) data to do this, but I'm ready to be corrected on that if someone knows differently.  Again, I can see how the AHRS compensation algorithm might need true heading as an input, and therefore need variation data to compute it from magnetic heading, but that's independent of the heading displayed on the DG/HSI page

The second part of the response, regarding the G5 showing "True Heading", makes no sense to me.  If a magnetometer is not connected to the G5, I don't see how it could possibly show any kind of heading, either magnetic or true.  I do understand that the G5 shows GPS track without a magnetometer (indeed, our first G5 was installed standalone as an AI and that's how it worked until we installed the second one as an HSI).  But track != heading, and I'm starting to think whoever wrote the manual either doesn't understand that, or is a poor communicator.

I wrote back to Garmin Aviation Support and asked, "If an aircraft equipped with a G5, but without a GMU magnetometer, is pointed true north; and flying into a headwind so strong that its ground track is actually true south; what 'heading' will the G5 display?"  That was a week ago, still waiting for a response.

 

You are asking a pretty technical question and, at least in my experience, the Garmin front line support team does not do a great job at answering these.

The AHRS uses 3-axis MEMs gyroscopic, accelerometer and magnetometer sensors combined with air data and GPS solutions to substitute for the mechanical gyros used in older instruments. All this is necessary because the MEMs gyros provide only short-term rate accuracy and need a lot of correcting to provide stable solutions over the long term. All these sources provide inputs to a software Kalman filter algorithm to yield heading and attitude. That's in general how I understand these things to work. Details of any specific implementation are generally proprietary and it's difficult to get more detail. I'm sure that a literature search would find numerous technical papers describing various algorithms, but the math is likely pretty complex.

The IGRS data is used by the AHRS algorithm. Most likely it is used to smooth the GMU data which is probably noisy, but that's just guess. 

Skip

[Ragsf15e]

5 hours ago, AIREMATT said:

Found this today. Had to Google to find it.
Garmin web still shows Version 8.0 current if you follow the links from their G5 page.

This link went direct to the page showing 8.17 current.

https://www8.garmin.com/support/download_details.jsp?id=10355

While it’s not clear on their website, that appears to be the experimental software.  Geez, shouldn’t be this complicated?!

[PT20J]

22 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

While it’s not clear on their website, that appears to be the experimental software.  Geez, shouldn’t be this complicated?!

It’s not. And that link is for the experimental version.

Go to Garmin.com. Aviation. Products. Flight Instruments. G5 Electronic Flight Instrument for Certified Aircraft. Scroll down to bottom of the page and select Software. Select G5 for Certified aircraft Download link. Select download link for your computer’s operating system. Agree to license. Download. 

Current certified version is 8.00. A new version should be released shortly to fix the GFC 500 trim issue and might also pick up some of the changes in the experimental version. 

Skip

[AIREMATT]

The experimental version is 2 revisions ahead of the certified version. 
Both of those revisions have the IGRF update included.

Why aren’t the certified versions updated to at least solve the IGRF update?

The experimental version also came out Dec. 9, 2022. The certified version is dated Jan. 5 2022. Certified IGRF still has no update.

Does the experimental world get more attention from Garmin than the certified market? Curious…

[Ragsf15e]

16 minutes ago, AIREMATT said:

The experimental version is 2 revisions ahead of the certified version. 
Both of those revisions have the IGRF update included.

Why aren’t the certified versions updated to at least solve the IGRF update?

The experimental version also came out Dec. 9, 2022. The certified version is dated Jan. 5 2022. Certified IGRF still has no update.

Does the experimental world get more attention from Garmin than the certified market? Curious…

No, the experimental version doesn’t need the same level (or any) faa approval.  Certified version does.

[PT20J]

v9.00 for the G3X included v8.00 for the G5 and this is the version I have installed. I believe it includes the 2020 IGRF for both even though the release note only mentions the G3X. I flew yesterday and neither G3X nor G5 complained about an out of date IGRF.

This is, however, a question the Garmin support should be able to answer.

Skip

[Mooney in Oz]

6 hours ago, AIREMATT said:

Does the experimental world get more attention from Garmin than the certified market?

You would be forgiven for thinking so.

The latest G3X Touch Certified PG still has an illustration of a flap position and rudder trim indicator on the bottom left of the PFD on the GDU 460. This is not permitted in the certified world and therefore has no relevance to certified aircraft.

It simply looks like a cut and paste job from the experimental PG.

Who at Garmin checks these things before PG release?