Mooney down in Alabama?

[Jim Peace]

Most pilots don’t understand that these single engine planes are lawn mowers with wings. 
 

they think they are strapping on an iron eagle. Sad 

[Will.iam]

1 hour ago, T. Peterson said:

Very well said. Your take on personal minimums is spot on. You mentioned the ability to automatically use your equipment and that really registers with me as I know I am not nearly as comfortable with my 430W as I am the avionics in the big airplane. Plus I don’t have a First Officer to fly while I figure it out!

Teach her how to manipulate the 430 you will have 2+ hours of flying time for her to practice and it will help make the time go by faster. Plus when you are getting loaded up you can delegate that part to her in the future once she gets it down.  

[mike_elliott]

If anyone has contact info for the injured pilot, please let me know.

Thanks

 

[T. Peterson]

6 hours ago, Will.iam said:

Teach her how to manipulate the 430 you will have 2+ hours of flying time for her to practice and it will help make the time go by faster. Plus when you are getting loaded up you can delegate that part to her in the future once she gets it down.  

I will try that, but I am not sanguine as to the outcome!

[Hank]

13 hours ago, Hank said:

There's been a frequent visiting Mooney this year. Need better pictures to know who / what this is.

 

12 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Not the one I've been seeing, it's very dark red underneath, with shadowed N-number on the sides.

Hope this pilot comes out well! It's a short ride from the airport to the hospital, not sure exactly where he ended up. At least he wasn't in the lake!

[aviatoreb]

11 hours ago, 0TreeLemur said:

A single pilot flying IFR in a GA airplane without a lot of automation on board is always near task saturation.   Ceilings of 800' or more give us lots more time to detect/correct mistakes or find a place to aim for in the case of an engine problem than when ceilings are 600' or 400' or god forbid, 220'.  

Interestingly I just answered a question that's been bothering me for a while.  Why do we need personal minimums?   We always train to go all the way to the DA.  The answer is: your present skill level and equipment and your ability to use it automatically determine your personal minimums.  An honest assessment is key.

Good luck on your trip.  Hope the weather cooperates.

My personal IFR mins for the reasons you just said - task saturation of a single pilot operation (not in the case of a good day, but in the case of an emergency) and the fact of a single engine are, I demand forecasts of MVFR for the entire route.  That means >1000ft ceilings.  But not for scud running but for flying in the soup or over the tops with a planned IFR decent, and no night flying in single engine piston.

So as I said, planning for the emergency - I know I can handle an approach to minimums.  I do it in practice and I've done it in real life.  There have been a few occasions when the forecasts "promised me" a MVFR approach when I would get there only to present much lower conditions - just a handful of occasions.  Conditions can be worse than promised.  So if 1000 ft drops to 500 feet or 600 feet, yes I will proceed with the approach but that is a different thing than launching with the plan of arriving to 400 ft and finding 200 feet or 100 ft when you get there.  Also, my most common approach is my home airport KPTD.  While I bring up my plate every time and look at it of course I have that approach memorized.   And I am more willing to plan an approach to home than I am to plan an approach to certain travel airports - my home airport is flat terrain all around, rural, no power lines or something in front of the airport, plus I have it memorized.  If my away airport has difficult elements, then I am more suspicious of planning an approach.   Oh and when my home airport is reporting 400 or 500 ft as I get there - and mins are 406ft, then I don't even bother attempting the approach - I will just divert to KMSS which is 6 min away by air - there are two runways and an ILS.  I've done that maybe a half dozen times in a dozen years.  Uber is cheaper than medical bills and fixing my airplane.  I would approach this all differently if, I were flying with two pilots, and/or a turbine engine or two piston engines.  

I really don't think I miss much with these rules since almost always I can get the flight done if I have a little time flex - launch a few hours earlier, or wait a day, or whatever. There is ALWAYS good weather.  Or good enough weather.  Just that sometimes you need to be flexible to find it.

Edited December 14, 2022 by aviatoreb

[mike_elliott]

Might I suggest one writes their minimums down, and keep a copy by their checklist. prior to engine start checklist use your personal min. checklist. Key doesn't go into mag switch if below minimums.

 

[Rjfanjet]

 I've been an airline guy for 24 years. Work is work, completely different minumums. As for my C, VFR only and no mountains at night. If I have to be somewhere, I buy a ticket.

[exM20K]

15 hours ago, 0TreeLemur said:

A single pilot flying IFR in a GA airplane without a lot of automation on board is always near task saturation.   Ceilings of 800' or more give us lots more time to detect/correct mistakes or find a place to aim for in the case of an engine problem than when ceilings are 600' or 400' or god forbid, 220'.  

Interestingly I just answered a question that's been bothering me for a while.  Why do we need personal minimums?   We always train to go all the way to the DA.  The answer is: your present skill level and equipment and your ability to use it automatically determine your personal minimums.  An honest assessment is key.

 

I’m fortunate to have a plane with pretty good automation and systems.  This weather for the last couple of weeks in the southeast has been challenging for sure.  I’ve flown more than 25 hours in the last 30 days between Florida panhandle, West Virginia, back to Florida, up to Illinois, down to SE Texas, Florida and back to Illinois.  A lot of that has been over LIFR, and it is not my favorite thing to do. So I guess my en route minimums are “flexible” depending on how important it is that I complete a trip.

im much more rigid on departure minumums… I want to have at least circling minimum ceiling and viz for the departure field so I know I can get back in if something goes bad early on, say, for example, a door pops open or a mag goes bad.  Approaches to minimums are fine for me. YMMV.

All this flying over LIFR and mountains does have me re-reading Nate Jaros’s excellent book   Engine Out Survival Tactics

 

For at least the third time.  Will be reaching out to my local Rocket-owning CFI Michael Baraz to do some practice soon and on a regular basis going forward.

-dan

Edited December 14, 2022 by exM20K

[Hank]

21 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

 

FAA is listing this as Fatal. - A result of "engine issues"

Wow! I thought he was going to ALX. Diverting there with engine trouble and low ceilings would be bad. Sorry to hear that the pilot apparently didn't last overnight . . .

Wonder what the original destination was? He ended up a fair bit from the field, but what was apparently his on-course heading wasn't especially close, either.

[Fly Boomer]

4 hours ago, exM20K said:

All this flying over LIFR and mountains does have me re-reading Nate Jaros’s excellent book   Engine Out Survival Tactics

For at least the third time.  Will be reaching out to my local Rocket-owning CFI Michael Baraz to do some practice soon and on a regular basis going forward.

The Nate Jaros book is one that I pull off the shelf with some regularity.

[kortopates]

The Nate Jaros book is one that I pull off the shelf with some regularity.

I have yet to check that out but need too!

Does he cover the Impossible/Possible turn in it?
i was just teaching that to a private student. After 3 practice 360 engine out turns at altitude, we did it for real in the Mooney. We departed to 1000’ agl, pull power to idle, waited 4 sec and started the maneuver. He actually made it back with near a couple hundred feet of altitude to spare first try. Had to slip it in at the end.
He had already learned to do the power off spiral to a landing for simulated engine out. Wish i learned these things as a private pilot but they came much later.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[exM20K]

17 minutes ago, kortopates said:

I have yet to check that out but need too!

Does he cover the Impossible/Possible turn in it?
i was just teaching that to a private student. After 3 practice 360 engine out turns at altitude, we did it for real in the Mooney. We departed to 1000’ agl, pull power to idle, waited 4 sec and started the maneuver. He actually made it back with near a couple hundred feet of altitude to spare first try. Had to slip it in at the end.
He had already learned to do the power off spiral to a landing for simulated engine out. Wish i learned these things as a private pilot but they came much later.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No.  It’s all about energy management/ conservation, L/D, key altitudes in a power off pattern. He adapts USAF F16 simulated flameout practice to GA.  I did a bunch of this with Parvez at a MAPASF PPP a couple of years ago, and it is very cool to see how the straight in or overhead pattern work every time. His bonanza numbers were easy to adapt for the acclaim.

buy the book. You will be a better pilot for reading it and practicing.

-dan

Edited December 15, 2022 by exM20K

[kortopates]

No.  It’s all about energy management/ conservation, L/D, key altitudes in a power off pattern. He adapts USAF F16 simulated flameout practice to GA.  I did a bunch of this with Parvez at a MAPASF PPP a couple of years ago, and it is very cool to see how the straight in or overhead pattern work every time. His bonanza numbers were easy to adapt for the acclaim.
buy the book. You will be a better pilot for reading it and practicing.
-dan

I will have to get it for sure to read his take on it. But i do at least the glide to an airport, followed by spirals down to the power off landing or at least the spirals above the airport to a power off landing on virtually every flight review i give - great and important training for us all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Fly Boomer]

56 minutes ago, kortopates said:

I have yet to check that out but need too!

Does he cover the Impossible/Possible turn in it?

No.  And he talks about the F-16 and Bonanzas and what is taught at the ABS schools.  That said, I still got quite a lot from the book.

[exM20K]

Apologies for the thread drift into Nate’s book.  I’m saddened to read that a man lost his life in this mishap.  Perhaps a new thread in the safety forum would be better for the engine out discussion.  I extend my condolences  to the lost aviator’s loved ones should they be reading this thread. 
-dan

[Fly Boomer]

43 minutes ago, exM20K said:

No.  It’s all about energy management/ conservation, L/D, key altitudes in a power off pattern. He adapts USAF F16 simulated flameout practice to GA.  I did a bunch of this with Parvez at a MAPASF PPP a couple of years ago, and it is very cool to see how the straight in or overhead pattern work every time. His bonanza numbers were easy to adapt for the acclaim.

buy the book. You will be a better pilot for reading it and practicing.

-dan

You type faster than I do!

[kortopates]

45 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

The Prelim ASIAS noted "engine issues" before crashing in a field.  I don't know if anyone looked at his past flights but the plane seemed awful slow - especially since it was a "Riley Turbo Charged" M20B.  If you look his flights on November 17 and 18 - he flew from Waycross-Ware to Concord Padgett on the 17th at 7,000 ft and flew the exact same track in reverse returning the next day at 6,000 ft.  Granted they are a day apart and 1,000 ft different in altitude but it looks like the plane never got much above 130-135 kts either way during the approx 2 hour flights.  I would think a M20B Turbocharged would have better speed.  Additionally he filed "158 kts" and "161 kts" each way.  But he flew about 25 kts slower.  That is more like Cessna/Piper speed.  If he wanted to intentionally fly slow for economy then logically he would have filed a slower speed.

On the day of the accident he filed "165 kts" at 6,000 ft but struggled to maintain 120 kts. most of the flight.  We don't know the winds however.

It makes me wonder if there was a long term problem with the plane's engine - timing, valves, turbocharger etc that finally worsened.  

 

I wouldn't put any significance to the "sluggish" airspeeds. The turbo is entirely manual and you'd be surprised how many owners with them don't necessarily use the turbo unless they feel the need.

[T. Peterson]

On 12/13/2022 at 6:45 PM, T. Peterson said:

I understand, and I sure hope you are right because I am planning to fly to Branson MO tomorrow! I will probably pray a little harder tonight and really examine the weather! 

 

Back safe and sound from Branson, PTL! 

Tailwinds going, F41 to PLK 2:01 flight time, headwinds coming home 2:18.

Flew into KPLK. Excellent FBO. I asked about plugging in the airplane heater 3 hours before departure and they were more than willing to oblige. 
Avis car rental right there in the terminal. 78 dollars for a day. 
Went to Sight and Sound to see their Christmas Special. It was wonderful! Many other wonderful shows, but for us S@S is the crown jewel.

Branson, MO is a wonderful place!

[Sue Bon]

4 hours ago, T. Peterson said:

Back safe and sound from Branson, PTL! 

If you didn't post today, I was going to ask. Good news!

[EricJ]

NTSB preliminary is out.    Right tank was selected and dry, left tank had fuel. 

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/302693

The Kathryn's report page has some pics of the pilot, a new commercial pilot flying for the owner, and on the chunky side.    It was apparently only his second flight in the airplane, and I wonder if he couldn't get at the fuel selector to switch tanks.   That may be a briefing/checkout failure on the owner's part, imho, if so.    Not good.

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2022/11/federal-aviation-administration-holds.html

[A64Pilot]

Seems he flew less than one hour before running out of fuel in that tank. My guess he didn’t even check fuel level, thought he had more,  who departs on an IFR single occupant IFR flight with so little fuel? Not saying he was IMC of course.

Clipped trees, rolled inverted and nosed in, ouch

[wiguy]

 Yes, if the selected tank was out of fuel, after 50 minutes of flight, not good. With the weather as it was, one would want ample fuel. I didn’t see an amount mentioned in the other side, just ‘lines empty’. 
 

  Of all the things one considers or checks before a flight, can’t think of anything more basic than sufficient fuel. 

[Fly Boomer]

3 hours ago, wiguy said:

 Yes, if the selected tank was out of fuel, after 50 minutes of flight, not good. With the weather as it was, one would want ample fuel. I didn’t see an amount mentioned in the other side, just ‘lines empty’. 
 

  Of all the things one considers or checks before a flight, can’t think of anything more basic than sufficient fuel. 

Maybe he didn't stick the tanks?  Some fuel gauges are known to by iffy.

[EricJ]

I suspect he may have just planned to switch tanks and wasn't able to, and didn't know it might be an issue until he tried it.   If there was only an hour or two left in the other tank it wouldn't have been too unreasonable to run the right one down low first.

So it could have just been poor airmanship, or it could have been an unexpected realization that he couldn't reach the selector.

Might not ever know on this one.