Shoulder Harness question

[icurnmedic]

So I’m having shoulder harnesses installed in my 1967F model, the question is should I do the inertia real type or the static type?(not sure if that’s the proper description.)

There’s only a $300 difference so either one will work I just don’t know what are the pros and cons of each are  

 Thanks in advance  

 

[DCarlton]

10 minutes ago, icurnmedic said:

So I’m having shoulder harnesses installed in my 1967F model, the question is should I do the inertia real type or the static type?(not sure if that’s the proper description.)

There’s only a $300 difference so either one will work I just don’t know what are the pros and cons of each are  

 Thanks in advance  

 

Great question.  I need harnesses too.  I’m thinking about the static type for simplicity but have no basis for the decision other than keeping it simple.  Look forward to other opinions.  

[RLCarter]

Here is my .02…. It’s possible in turbulence that the inertia type could activate pinning you in the seat, where the adjustable type you could loosen the stap if needed the tighten back. Inertia type retract out of the way when the belt isn’t in use and the other just hang there, they both attach to the airframe the same but the inertia reel could possibly fail, the reel itself has bulk to it. I went with the adjustable shoulder strap which I can loosen in seconds and cinch down just as easy…either is better than nothing, just look at the Pro’s and Con’s for each and buy accordingly… 

Edited December 8, 2022 by RLCarter

[icurnmedic]

22 minutes ago, RLCarter said:

Here is my .02…. It’s possible in turbulence that the inertia type could activate pinning you in the seat, where the adjustable type you could loosen the stap if needed the tighten back. 

Funny,my wife said the same thing.  Never gonna hear the end of that one.

 I was leaning toward the reel , but now not so much. Thanks for that.

[65MooneyPilot]

There are a lot of seatbelt discussions on this forum. There is a reason why every car has inertia reels. But you have a choice. I have the inertia reels and they are great. Your lap belt should keep you in your seat when it is turbulent. Bending over for the fuel valve would be a challenge with a straight belt. Having it tight before you really need it is the key. 

[skydvrboy]

If you fly with backseaters, the inertia reel on the passenger side gets in the way.  As for the pilot side, the inertia reel lets you switch tanks without loosening the harness. Thanks really about it, other than that, it’s just personal preference.

[Pinecone]

I just replaced the non-inertial reel ones in my 252 with the Alpha Aviation inertial reel ones.  I am a big fan of inertial reel shoulder harnesses except in two areas.  Track/race cars and aerobatic aircraft.

One unexpected benefit is that the shoulder harness pulls the seat belt off the middle of the seat and up the side a bit.  Much easier getting in and situated.

A couple of things:

1)  If you don't have shoulder harnesses, INSTALL them.  It does you no good to have the wonderful Mooney steel cage keep the cockpit integrity, but you have douncing your head off the panel and are unconscious or already dead.

2)  If you haven't replaced your seatbelt/harness in a while, REPLACE it.  In race cars, we replace the harness every 5 years.  My 252 had the original 1986 harnesses still in it.  How much of the original strength was left?

[MikeOH]

I went with the simple strap. I like the ability to snug it tight before takeoff and landing, and loosening it a bit in flight. Slipping it off my shoulder to move the fuel selector just isn’t a big deal to me.

Also I think the reels are ugly and cumbersome especially for back seat ingress/egress. Then there’s the lock-up/pin potential.

Additionally, the inertia type can become unreliable over time; I’ve had automobile ones get ‘sticky’ and fail to properly retract, or get jammed.

Finally, I’m a proud CB; $300 is 50 gallons of 100LL, after all 

[EricJ]

Intertia reel for me every time.    This allows me to lean forward and reach things, on the other side of the cabin, behind the passenger seat, etc., without unstrapping.   I've never had it lock, in turbulence or otherwise, and inhibit movement when I wanted to.    I have more trouble with shoulder belts randomly locking in road vehicles than in the airplane.   A fixed belt is way too restrictive for me.

 

[201Mooniac]

So what about the new airbag belts?  The new system is easier to install and less expensive but I haven't heard any reviews about it.  Thoughts?

[DCarlton]

2 hours ago, MikeOH said:

I went with the simple strap. I like the ability to snug it tight before takeoff and landing, and loosening it a bit in flight. Slipping it off my shoulder to move the fuel selector just isn’t a big deal to me.

Also I think the reels are ugly and cumbersome especially for back seat ingress/egress. Then there’s the lock-up/pin potential.

Additionally, the inertia type can become unreliable over time; I’ve had automobile ones get ‘sticky’ and fail to properly retract, or get jammed.

Finally, I’m a proud CB; $300 is 50 gallons of 100LL, after all 

That's what I'm thinking.  I installed aftermarket inertial belts in my '73 Camaro.  They don't retract well and I have little confidence in them working on impact.  The supplier replaced the first set after I reported issues.  Probably apples and oranges with aviation belts but nevertheless, I had a poor experience.   I installed an aftermarket tilt collapsable steering column in my Camaro too for safety and it's given me ignition lockset issues.  Some times simple is better.  

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, 201Mooniac said:

So what about the new airbag belts?  The new system is easier to install and less expensive but I haven't heard any reviews about it.  Thoughts?

They're time-limited (life limited) and require periodic replacement, which makes them pretty expensive.  I'm personally not a fan of strapping a pyrotechnic to your chest, and knowing the large amount of system integration engineering that goes into making automotive airbags safe and effective, I know that didn't happen on any of the aircraft installations since they're retrofits.    Just my personal perspective.

[GeeBee]

I had aftermarket inertials in my PA-18, and every airplane I have flown in the past 40 years all have had inertials.  Even in the seat of airliners I keep my harness on full time, not just for T/O and landing.  (Yeah I know, I use to take a lot of ribbing) I have never had a lock up due to turbulence, and I've been in some bad turbulence.

As to airbag seat belts, just about every first class  wide body lie flat seat on US airlines have them. Literally, 10's of thousands of these seats are flying around the world every day. Never had, never heard of a bad deployment that either was inadvertent or caused injury. 

[DCarlton]

5 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

As to airbag seat belts, just about every first class  wide body lie flat seat on US airlines have them. Literally, 10's of thousands of these seats are flying around the world every day. Never had, never heard of a bad deployment that either was inadvertent or caused injury. 

Didn't know this.  They have some sort of explosive propellant like auto airbags?  Ignited by some central circuit that pops them all at once?  Or is it pneumatic somehow? 

[Pinecone]

And they are uncomfortable to wear all the time as they are very bulky.

[Andy95W]

If you have a Johnson bar for gear retraction, definitely get the inertia reel.  Otherwise- meh.  (Although the fuel selector thing is easier.)

[EricJ]

40 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

As to airbag seat belts, just about every first class  wide body lie flat seat on US airlines have them. Literally, 10's of thousands of these seats are flying around the world every day. Never had, never heard of a bad deployment that either was inadvertent or caused injury. 

Those seat systems were designed together with the harness and bag system so that they function as a system.    That's hard to do in a retrofit.

[201Mooniac]

1 hour ago, EricJ said:

They're time-limited (life limited) and require periodic replacement, which makes them pretty expensive.  I'm personally not a fan of strapping a pyrotechnic to your chest, and knowing the large amount of system integration engineering that goes into making automotive airbags safe and effective, I know that didn't happen on any of the aircraft installations since they're retrofits.    Just my personal perspective.

My understanding is the new system they recently released only requires the crash sensor (and its battery) to be replaced every 10 years and that is supposed to be a few hundred dollars.  I think I got that from an Aviation Consumer article but might be wrong there.

[GeeBee]

13 minutes ago, EricJ said:

Those seat systems were designed together with the harness and bag system so that they function as a system.    That's hard to do in a retrofit.

No, not exactly. The first units were in fact retrofits to existing seating systems approved by the FAA. In particular I recall the B767-300 seats in my experience as being retrofits much like the SOARS system is now. They actually were done on an "overnight" at outlying stations.  The FAA is generally pretty accepting of such systems because they do not involve an airbag coming out of a fixture but rather the belt itself and positions itself in front of the occupant. Other systems now in use where you have a "seat suite" often use the bag deploying from a fixture and that is an integrated system because the bag come at you rather than deploying up and away into dead space soon to be occupied by your face.

To answer DCarlton's question. Yes they use an electrically initiated detonator for inert gas release.

 

[EricJ]

A common thing to do with old automotive airbags, especially when removing them to build a race car or something (because they're not safe in that environment), is to set them off in a shop or in a parking lot for fun, sometimes to see how high you can launch something.   You get an appreciation for the nature of that beast when you do this.  They're highly explosive and can be fatal when used improperly or used in an environment not designed for them.    Automotive systems are very carefully designed to work properly in their specific environment with the other equipment installed around them so that the high amount of energy released goes in a useful direction and is unlikely to cause harm or interact with other parts of the vehicle or environment to cause harm.   The seats, structure, harness, dash, etc., are all designed together as a system with this in mind.   

None of that can happen to any appreciable degree in a retrofit system.

There are, of course, anecdotal stories of people who are sure their lives were saved by retrofit bag systems.  Any safety measure leans on statistics because it is not possible to predict the exact accident mode that you might experience.    In this particular case the benefit of having a high-energy device retrofit into an environment not designed for it does not seem to outweigh the risk and cost in my estimation.   Everybody has their own risk tolerance and risk tradeoff preferences, and some just like having done something to make themselves feel more comfortable, but it's certainly not a slam-dunk safety tradeoff.

[GeeBee]

I seem to remember William Hopper (aka Paul Drake) telling his new sweetheart in "The High and the Mighty" to put a pillow over her face if the plane was going down. Good advice then, good advice now. A seat belt air bag is that pillow. The airlines (who have the lowest risk in aviation) did not spend all that money to just to make people feel good.

[DCarlton]

7 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

I seem to remember William Hopper (aka Paul Drake) telling his new sweetheart in "The High and the Mighty" to put a pillow over her face if the plane was going down. Good advice then, good advice now. A seat belt air bag is that pillow. The airlines (who have the lowest risk in aviation) did not spend all that money to just to make people feel good.

I tell my wife that now.  I have a cushion in the back to put between her and the yoke in the event of an off field "landing".  

[DCarlton]

1 hour ago, EricJ said:

A common thing to do with old automotive airbags, especially when removing them to build a race car or something (because they're not safe in that environment), is to set them off in a shop or in a parking lot for fun, sometimes to see how high you can launch something.   You get an appreciation for the nature of that beast when you do this.  They're highly explosive and can be fatal when used improperly or used in an environment not designed for them.   

I did that years ago.  Bought several for a rather unique project.  Had to dispose of a few when we were done.  

[EricJ]

41 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

The airlines (who have the lowest risk in aviation) did not spend all that money to just to make people feel good.

They do if it sells tickets.

 

[Yetti]

My thought is if I crash, I don't want a big ole thing there to wack my head against.   I probably sit further back than most.   I also thought it might be good to carry a bicycle helmet to don in case of less than optimal landing.