"The Clearance"

[midlifeflyer]

I flew to Philadelphia the last week of November. This was from fairly early in the flight and I thought this 4-minute video would be interesting on its own. Kudos to the Washington Center controller for patience and taking the time to spell things out.

Besides, I was flying a Mooney.

 

[Rwsavory]

On a recent trip I needed one waypoint spelled out 3 times. I felt sorry for the controller. I have a mental block with the phonetic alphabet, apparently.

[Marauder]

Welcome to the northeast!


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[aviatoreb]

I go to Washington area several times a year.  It always demands my A-game to work smoothly with ATC.  I pretty much always fly IFR to DC area just in case - VMC or IMC -so I won't accidentally step on some restricted airspace.  I just go where they tell me to go and I'm good.  The most "exciting" time I remember was once I was going to Manassas airport on a flight plan and over a course of the last 45 min I was asked ready to copy 4 separate times after hand offs to different controllers and each time I was given an entirely new and very intricate flight plan.  Also at one point I was getting pretty close to the ADZIZ and I was given a heading while waiting for the controller to have time to read to me the complicated new flight plan and I was heading straight to the heart of town - about to touch the adziz - wondering what the heck is their plan for me - but on their commands I was good to go.  At one point found myself at 2000ft immediately over the top of Dulles airport which was sort of weird and felt like being in the eye of a hurricane listening to all the heavies they were sending in.

[N201MKTurbo]

3 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

I go to Washington area several times a year.  It always demands my A-game to work smoothly with ATC.  I pretty much always fly IFR to DC area just in case - VMC or IMC -so I won't accidentally step on some restricted airspace.  I just go where they tell me to go and I'm good.  The most "exciting" time I remember was once I was going to Manassas airport on a flight plan and over a course of the last 45 min I was asked ready to copy 4 separate times after hand offs to different controllers and each time I was given an entirely new and very intricate flight plan.  Also at one point I was getting pretty close to the ADZIZ and I was given a heading while waiting for the controller to have time to read to me the complicated new flight plan and I was heading straight to the heart of town - about to touch the adziz - wondering what the heck is their plan for me - but on their commands I was good to go.  At one point found myself at 2000ft immediately over the top of Dulles airport which was sort of weird and felt like being in the eye of a hurricane listening to all the heavies they were sending in.

Don’t think you guys are that special SOCAL does the same thing.

[Will.iam]

Yea full reroutes just plain suck especially when you get the waypoints all loaded in only to have the next controller clear you direct or worse another reroute grrrrr. 
box gymnastics no bueno. 

[aviatoreb]

I'm sort of impressed and astonished that we still do reroutes and also initial clearances by voice transmissions on an open party line.  That's so 1952 technology. Read back is correct.

Not only does it take too much time, bandwidth and its annoying, but it does allow for more human errors and conflicts to creep in.

Surely they can figure out a system where ATC can simply send us a text of some kind that if we approve then we hit a button and it inputs to our gps for final approval and then nav.

If nothing else...  here's an idea using current infrastructure: We already have an ADSB system up and running.  I receive weather and traffic.  What if ATC had the ability to push texts into the ADSB system in a new special category of information that was sort of like a party line, that while all the airplanes could see the pool of information there would be texts in there in just a big list that would have a syntax something like:

***N314EB reroute: ART, Letus, MSS, direct.

Then ATC could say N314EB new reroute in ADSB text pool, confirm upon receipt.  Then I would have the option to confirm once I receive it and acknowledge reroute, or if for chance I can't find it or I am not properly equipped I could still request the reroute to be read to me by voice in open channel.

 

 

 

 

 

[N231BN]

I'm sort of impressed and astonished that we still do reroutes and also initial clearances by voice transmissions on an open party line.  That's so 1952 technology. Read back is correct.
Not only does it take too much time, bandwidth and its annoying, but it does allow for more human errors and conflicts to creep in.
Surely they can figure out a system where ATC can simply send us a text of some kind that if we approve then we hit a button and it inputs to our gps for final approval and then nav.
If nothing else...  here's an idea using current infrastructure: We already have an ADSB system up and running.  I receive weather and traffic.  What if ATC had the ability to push texts into the ADSB system in a new special category of information that was sort of like a party line, that while all the airplanes could see the pool of information there would be texts in there in just a big list that would have a syntax something like:
***N314EB reroute: ART, Letus, MSS, direct.
Then ATC could say N314EB new reroute in ADSB text pool, confirm upon receipt.  Then I would have the option to confirm once I receive it and acknowledge reroute, or if for chance I can't find it or I am not properly equipped I could still request the reroute to be read to me by voice in open channel.
 
 
 
 
 

I think that is a great idea, it would be very easy to hack though.

[rbp]

4 minutes ago, N231BN said:

25 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

***N314EB reroute: ART, Letus, MSS, direct.
Then ATC could say N314EB new reroute in ADSB text pool, confirm upon receipt.  Then I would have the option to confirm once I receive it and acknowledge reroute, or if for chance I can't find it or I am not properly equipped I could still request the reroute to be read to me by voice in open channel.

I think that is a great idea, it would be very easy to hack though.

 

it already exists for 121/135 traffic -- ACARS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACARS

and so far as hacking is concerned, here's a $10 microcontroller that can communicate securely https://blog.espressif.com/esp32-s2-security-improvements-5e5453f98590

[N201MKTurbo]

But they do have it.

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/Order_7110.125_Controller_Pilot_Data_Link_Communications_(CPDLC)_in_the_ERAM_Environment.pdf

[Marauder]

One thing I have never figured out is why there is a need for a re-route at all. From the start, they know who I am, where I am going, how fast I am flying, my intended route, the LOAs along the route. Why issue a biblical re-route at all? It is not like I am flying into an airport that I need a reservation slot.


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[N201MKTurbo]

51 minutes ago, Marauder said:

One thing I have never figured out is why there is a need for a re-route at all. From the start, they know who I am, where I am going, how fast I am flying, my intended route, the LOAs along the route. Why issue a biblical re-route at all? It is not like I am flying into an airport that I need a reservation slot.


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I think each sector controller has his/her own idea of how to do things. They try to communicate with each other about how they want the airplanes to come to them and the sector handing you off tries to accommodate. And the world is dynamic, things could have changed after you take off. 

[EricJ]

ACARS has been around forever (1980s), and CPDLC has been creeping along, but the FAA moves far more slowly than technology life cycle developments, so the lag between what is practically and safely possible and what gets approved and deployed just keeps getting longer in my observation.

Making comm secure is also very doable, but that's something that has to be able to adapt and evolve with time, too, so if it ever had to meet an FAA spec to be approved it'd be effective for probably six months or so.   

 

[N201MKTurbo]

Just remember, they started talking about ADS-B back in the early 90s. It only took them 25 years to actually make it happen.

[aviatoreb]

4 hours ago, N231BN said:

5 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

I'm sort of impressed and astonished that we still do reroutes and also initial clearances by voice transmissions on an open party line.  That's so 1952 technology. Read back is correct.
Not only does it take too much time, bandwidth and its annoying, but it does allow for more human errors and conflicts to creep in.
Surely they can figure out a system where ATC can simply send us a text of some kind that if we approve then we hit a button and it inputs to our gps for final approval and then nav.
If nothing else...  here's an idea using current infrastructure: We already have an ADSB system up and running.  I receive weather and traffic.  What if ATC had the ability to push texts into the ADSB system in a new special category of information that was sort of like a party line, that while all the airplanes could see the pool of information there would be texts in there in just a big list that would have a syntax something like:
***N314EB reroute: ART, Letus, MSS, direct.
Then ATC could say N314EB new reroute in ADSB text pool, confirm upon receipt.  Then I would have the option to confirm once I receive it and acknowledge reroute, or if for chance I can't find it or I am not properly equipped I could still request the reroute to be read to me by voice in open channel.
 
 

I think that is a great idea, it would be very easy to hack though.

If security is needed - then it could be encrypted and only a valid owner of a transponder code could have a specific description key, perhaps only able to read the codes for specific tail numbers.  That said, I am no expert in cyber security and therefore what is consider a safe encryption protocol for a setting like this.

[Will.iam]

And cpdlc was supposed to be mandated 2018 but as typical was pushed back then covid happened. It is still only working at a hand full of ATC centers (jackson center was not participating when we went Bos to Mia) and airlines still have to convert most of their planes with the new equipment. Only new aircraft are coming with cpdlc equipped. At least when all the airlines are forced to have it like RVSM was done then the frequencies will be more open for GA aircraft to talk on. But centers need to get trained up was well before that happens. On the other extreme Albuquerque center is testing out ads-c and assigning pilots to maintain  aircraft spacing based on the aircraft in front of you sort of like adaptive cruise control on cars these days when driving on the highway. We were playing around with the equipment as it allows you to tag another tcas target and it gives you their call sign altitude and how much their speed is reporting currently as well as how much faster or slower you are going compared to the target. Haven’t flown through Albuquerque center yet with one of the new aircraft so haven’t been assigned a spacing yet. 

[Sue Bon]

On 12/8/2022 at 3:51 AM, midlifeflyer said:

I flew to Philadelphia the last week of November. This was from fairly early in the flight and I thought this 4-minute video would be interesting on its own. Kudos to the Washington Center controller for patience and taking the time to spell things out.

Besides, I was flying a Mooney.

 

Wow. We do not have that over here, thank goodness. I've only been given one waypoint not on my flight plan (although it happens somewhat regularly) and that happens in the Zurich airspace where I know almost all the waypoints by heart. After that one new waypoint, I get a direct to a waypoint on my flight plan.

I think there was a thread about this happening during climb. That would be next to impossible for me in single pilot operation, especially in IMC. Maybe with the new GFC 500 that's currently being installed I could do it, but still...

Plus it blocks the frequency for so long that it's hard to imagine how it's ultimately beneficial for everyone.

[midlifeflyer]

3 hours ago, Sue Bon said:

Plus it blocks the frequency for so long that it's hard to imagine how it's ultimately beneficial for everyone.

The ultimate benefit here is being on the proper path through busy airspace and restricted areas (Skyvector link for the clearance), and often based on current conditions. Change in wind direction 

I wish I were fluent in Euro airspace, but it may be that our tendency toward route changes is a consequence of being less restricted in most ways (can you fly VFR in controlled airspace while talking to no one?).  I can "file" pretty much anything I want IFR. The clearance computer will accept or change what I file based on criteria above my pay grade, but even then, it allows for a lot of variation.  Then, at the operational level, it can be changed based in local current needs.

An example. I was returning to KTTA in the Raleigh NC area from KFRG on Long Island in NY. I knew what the preferred routing was but decided to try something a bit different that I thought would work. Accepted by the computer. Notified to expect it as the clearance. Changed as I was doing my preflight so I had a full route clearance to copy.

[Sue Bon]

5 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

can you fly VFR in controlled airspace while talking to no one?

I don't know if this was rhetorical or not, but just in case, the answer is a hard no. Obviously, I have no idea what it's like to fly in the US, but you definitely have a lot more space than we do! Thanks for your explanation. Watching your video has made me rethink my ambition of flying in the US. 

[David Lloyd]

For eight years I flew from.Charlotte area to Allentown, PA every six weeks or so.  Heading home I would always get one of three routings till past DC. Didn’t matter which I filed, I would get another on the ground and a reroute once on the way. It was like Whack-A-Mole. A head is going to come out of one of those holes, but which one?

[Rwsavory]

2 hours ago, Sue Bon said:

I don't know if this was rhetorical or not, but just in case, the answer is a hard no. Obviously, I have no idea what it's like to fly in the US, but you definitely have a lot more space than we do! Thanks for your explanation. Watching your video has made me rethink my ambition of flying in the US. 

You shouldn’t draw that conclusion. In most of the U.S. you get cleared direct to your destination with no significant route changes. And in most areas you can fly VFR en route without talking to anyone.

[midlifeflyer]

3 hours ago, Sue Bon said:

I don't know if this was rhetorical or not, but just in case, the answer is a hard no. Obviously, I have no idea what it's like to fly in the US, but you definitely have a lot more space than we do! Thanks for your explanation. Watching your video has made me rethink my ambition of flying in the US. 

It wasn't rhetorical. I was just asking to highlight one possible difference. We can. And, as already said, this kind of thing is mostly in busy areas. In most of the country, we can fly pretty much we want, even departure and direct, IFR, although the FAA prefers we include at least one waypoint in each FIR (our "Center" boundaries).

[Will.iam]

On 12/9/2022 at 2:42 AM, Sue Bon said:

Wow. We do not have that over here, thank goodness. I've only been given one waypoint not on my flight plan (although it happens somewhat regularly) and that happens in the Zurich airspace where I know almost all the waypoints by heart. After that one new waypoint, I get a direct to a waypoint on my flight plan.

I think there was a thread about this happening during climb. That would be next to impossible for me in single pilot operation, especially in IMC. Maybe with the new GFC 500 that's currently being installed I could do it, but still...

Plus it blocks the frequency for so long that it's hard to imagine how it's ultimately beneficial for everyone.

Sue come on over you change states over here like you do countries over there. Yes north eastern states is congested it’s not horrible. Intimidating maybe but you can always fly further west in Canadian airspace and then fly south avoiding most of the northeastern complexities. In the central to southern states especially at night you can go so long without a radio transmission you call center with a radio check just to make sure your equipment is working and you are still on the correct frequency. 

[Sue Bon]

34 minutes ago, Will.iam said:

Sue come on over you change states over here like you do countries over there. Yes north eastern states is congested it’s not horrible. Intimidating maybe but you can always fly further west in Canadian airspace and then fly south avoiding most of the northeastern complexities. In the central to southern states especially at night you can go so long without a radio transmission you call center with a radio check just to make sure your equipment is working and you are still on the correct frequency. 

Alright. I'll rethink my rethink  

[Hank]

On 12/9/2022 at 3:40 PM, midlifeflyer said:

In most of the country, we can fly pretty much we want, even departure and direct, IFR, although the FAA prefers we include at least one waypoint in each FIR (our "Center" boundaries).

In my part of the country, I file IFR Direct Destination unless I'm going past Atlanta--then I need a waypoint, any waypoint, that will keep me out of the Holy and Sacred Bravo Airspace. In the past, I've not done this and have been asked if I preferred HEFIN or SINCA, since my on course heading was directly over Hartsfield. And it tops at 13,000 so there's no going over without oxygen . . . . So I just go around. If I'm in a bad mood and VFR, I'll zoom in the G430W and drag my wingtip up the edge of the Airspace on the map until I get to turn back on course.