FULL FLAPS, SPEED ON FINAL, & GO AROUNDS...

[DCarlton]

Hate to start another thread on this but...  I just had to report back an interesting observation from todays flight.  In previous threads, I was encouraged to reduce my final approach speeds and start using full flaps.  My excuse for not doing so was that my operating environment had contributed to my higher than recommended approach speeds.  I finally conceded, started slowing down, and admitted that my landings had improved significantly.  But what happened today?... Hum.  I landed at an uncontrolled airport (KHII); there were 3-4 planes in the pattern.  I flew an 80 mph final and landed with full flaps; beautiful!  I'm hooked!  But... the airplane behind me had to execute a go around; apparently I didn't get off the runway in time.  Then I flew back to home base (KCRQ), a tower controlled airport.  I slowed at the FAF, and configured for landing.  The initial approach segment was IFR (BKN) but the airport was VFR with several planes working in the pattern.  I was determine to not be rushed!  There weren't even any jets behind me today.  I wanted another great landing.  I even thanked the nice controller for letting me slow down and received a positive ACK.  And then what happened?  The tower directed the airplane behind me to execute a go around because I didn't clear the runway fast enough.  Twice in one day!  Twice while flying nice slow approaches with full flaps leading to a great landing.  It feels rude but I guess from now own, I'm going to worry about my airplane, and my speeds and not the plane behind me.  It's not like Mooney's are slow...  ;>   Thoughts welcome.  

[A64Pilot]

There is no way your approach speed is lower than the generic 172 etc, unless of course your flying bomber patterns and slowing way out on final I guess.

[ArtVandelay]

Maybe you are slow to exit the runway, do you just let it roll out to the end to save the brakes?

[GeeBee]

When you are up to bat and in the batter's box you swing away until you're out or get a hit. If the batter behind you can't wait, that's his problem.

 

[PT20J]

1 hour ago, GeeBee said:

When you are up to bat and in the batter's box you swing away until you're out or get a hit. If the batter behind you can't wait, that's his problem.

 

THIS^^^. If the pilot following goes around it is because that pilot (or the controller) screwed up and got the spacing wrong. You own the final approach and the runway until you exit it.

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, GeeBee said:

When you are up to bat and in the batter's box you swing away until you're out or get a hit. If the batter behind you can't wait, that's his problem.

 

I had a young USAF instructor who worked for me in Texas.  Came into my office pretty mad and told me he grounded himself for the rest of the day (which was what I usually did when someone did something dumb, but I hadn’t ever had a “self grounding” lieutenant).
 

I asked what happened.  He said he was flying solo for practice since his student was on his formation checkride.  The IP ended up in front of the student in the pattern, but he was scared the student was close behind him (we could land alternate sides of the runway as long as the preceding plane was 3000’ down) and he would bust his checkride if he was too close or messed up a go around.  So the IP decided to help him by making the first turnoff.  Jumped on the brakes and Blew both tires and shutdown the runway.  Student went around and passed his checkride.  IP got to help maintenance change two tires.

Never worry about the guy behind.  Don’t stop on the runway and do your checklist (unless you can’t see the exit properly), but take all the time you need to exit safely.  If/when tower tells you to get off next taxiway, remember that’s a request, not an order.  Unable works.

[Brian E.]

To echo what @Ragsf15e posted, you own the runway as long as you're on it.  Certainly you should be reasonable (don't pitch a tent and camp) but don't rush and make a critical error--gear retraction, turn too fast and collapse the gear (generic example not necessarily Mooney specific), etc.

  The other thing is you can't control what you can't control.  At the towered airport many times controllers can apply reduced runway separation or category separation for a full stop landing behind a full stop or touch and go.  However, there would be a different clear of runway standard if the succeeding aircraft were a touch and go versus a full stop.  I'd always found that many times the go around was  a result of the arriving aircraft not making sufficient adjustment to their pattern to account for the preceding aircrafts type of landing even after the pilot was advised.

  Finally at uncontrolled airport many people will apply a clear of runway standard when it's not needed/required by the FARs.  That's their choice or comfort level that determined if they  were to go around.  Certainly at your first approach the succeeding aircraft was aware of your arrival and hopefully you announced your type of landing (i,e, full stop) for them to base their spacing.  Again, you have to fly your aircraft and operate safely.  The rest is on the other pilots to operate their aircraft safely.

  Control what you can control, work together to ensure efficient, safe runway and airspace use

**Incidentally, I prefer 105 MIAS/90KIAS finals until the MDA or DH--that's a technique.  The other most common technique is your approach--fully configured before the FAF.  Do what you're most comfortable with and keep flying

 

[redcatcher27]

You should never feel hurried. Do what you feel most comfortable with. There are a lot of folks out there (including the FAA: Airplane Flying Handbook (FAA-H-8083-3B, Chapter 8, Page 8-3) that preach stabilized approaches (fully configured with no changes) whenever you are on final and inside the FAF.  However, once you become comfortable in your aircraft, you might venture into slightly higher approach speeds, using "approach" flaps, and then choose to lower your flaps to the full flap setting only when you are landing assured on short final.      

Whatever methodology you take, you should never feel hurried. - that's step #1 of most mistakes. 

[Utah20Gflyer]

Sounds like the planes behind you needed to extend their downwind another 15 seconds or so,. They will learn eventually.  

[47U]

1 hour ago, Ragsf15e said:

IP got to help maintenance change two tires.

Maybe the rules at an FTU are different, but if we had to recover a jet off the runway with blown tires, that would involve the purchasing of some beer… 

[Will.iam]

42 minutes ago, redcatcher27 said:

You should never feel hurried. Do what you feel most comfortable with. There are a lot of folks out there (including the FAA: Airplane Flying Handbook (FAA-H-8083-3B, Chapter 8, Page 8-3) that preach stabilized approaches (fully configured with no changes) whenever you are on final and inside the FAF.  However, once you become comfortable in your aircraft, you might venture into slightly higher approach speeds, using "approach" flaps, and then choose to lower your flaps to the full flap setting only when you are landing assured on short final.      

Whatever methodology you take, you should never feel hurried. - that's step #1 of most mistakes. 

Also check your poh for limitations of A/P as my M20K prohibits flaps greater than 10 degrees or airspeed slower than 80 kts so i fly most of my approaches like my  instrument coupled approaches at 100kts flaps 10 to minimums that way a go-around is less trim changes to make and once i decide to land or turn off the autopilot then I’ll configure to full flaps if it’s a short runway or leave them at 10 if not. 

[DCarlton]

4 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

Maybe you are slow to exit the runway, do you just let it roll out to the end to save the brakes?

Nope.  I used 1/10th of the runway at KHII and 1/5th at KCRQ.  Have to add power to taxi to the first turn off now.  No breaking required.  I suppose I could start landing long.  

[icurnmedic]

Sounds like the Following planes didn’t plan very well. That’s on them.

‘Thomas

 

[Greg Ellis]

7 hours ago, DCarlton said:

Nope.  I used 1/10th of the runway at KHII and 1/5th at KCRQ.  Have to add power to taxi to the first turn off now.  No breaking required.  I suppose I could start landing long.  

If this is the case then I think the issue, as has been said many times, was not with you but with poor planning on the guys behind you.

Also,  if you change your mind and go back to landing faster because of worrying about the guys behind you, just remember, when it comes to replacing your tires more frequently or replacing your brakes more frequently, those guys behind you aren't going to contribute to the funds to pay for that stuff.  So, save and protect your airplane and do what you feel is safe.

[Pinecone]

Not your problem.  They are responsible for adjusting separation.  Either the pilot behind you or the controller.

I am in the camp of take off flaps, gear, and 90 knots after the FAF until visual on the runway or go around.  But that is Technique (one of many ways to do something) versus Procedure (THE way to do something).

Hmm, in UPT we always went to the end on full stops.

[Hank]

1 hour ago, Pinecone said:

Not your problem.  They are responsible for adjusting separation.  Either the pilot behind you or the controller.

I am in the camp of take off flaps, gear, and 90 knots after the FAF until visual on the runway or go around.  But that is Technique (one of many ways to do something) versus Procedure (THE way to do something).

Hmm, in UPT we always went to the end on full stops.

I do what I need to do.to land at my chosen spot. Typically Takeoff Flaps, 90 knots and drop gear at FAF or 1-1/2 dots before glideslope intercept,  and adjust as needed after breakout.

My VFR pattern is at 90mph, Takeoff flaps, drop gear abeam intended landing point, and roll wings level on final.at 85 mph slowing to 70-75 mph on short final.

On all full stop landings, I don't use brakes until after slowing to 50 mph, and I don't stomp hard to make a turnoff, just whichever one is most convenient. 

[Will.iam]

1 hour ago, Pinecone said:Hmm, in UPT we always went to the end on full stops.

I would too if i was cooking along at 160kts.   

[eman1200]

I almost always land with full flaps and 80mph on final (slowing down a bit ‘over the fence’) flying a VFR ‘standard’ traffic pattern. Never once causing the plane behind me to do a go around. Flying an approach though, 90kts, one notch of flaps all the way to minimums. Sounds like something else is going on here.

[Ragsf15e]

11 hours ago, 47U said:

Maybe the rules at an FTU are different, but if we had to recover a jet off the runway with blown tires, that would involve the purchasing of some beer… 

Yeah, in a fighter squadron that would have been lots of beer to maintenance.  This was in a T-6 squadron at upt.  AETC was “kinder and gentler”.

[Ragsf15e]

4 hours ago, Pinecone said:

Not your problem.  They are responsible for adjusting separation.  Either the pilot behind you or the controller.

I am in the camp of take off flaps, gear, and 90 knots after the FAF until visual on the runway or go around.  But that is Technique (one of many ways to do something) versus Procedure (THE way to do something).

Hmm, in UPT we always went to the end on full stops.

Yeah but a lot changed with the T-6 vs a Tweet.  T-6 could land real short, the ejection seat wasn’t frankenstein, and it probably had more range after losing an engine.  And yes, it only has 1 vs the 2 on the Tweet!

[rbp]

the way to get the guy behind you to slow down is to use the callsign "Citabria 8CS"

[Pinecone]

2 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

Yeah but a lot changed with the T-6 vs a Tweet.  T-6 could land real short, the ejection seat wasn’t frankenstein, and it probably had more range after losing an engine.  And yes, it only has 1 vs the 2 on the Tweet!

It was more of not having someone cross over to the other side early.

[Ragsf15e]

3 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

It was more of not having someone cross over to the other side early.

Oh yeah, clearly you couldn’t cross to the cold side to do that.  However, if nobody is in front of you, you should land on the cold side.  If you landed on the cold side, you could exit wherever was appropriate.  Most of the T-37 runways were longer than the T-6 really needed.

[EricJ]

Scottsdale is a very busy airport with a lot of mixed (jet, turbine, recip, helo) traffic on a single runway.   They will occassionally cancel a landing clearance and make a slow airplane go around if there's fast traffic behind them, especially if it's a train of fast traffic getting stacked up.   They'll also frequently ask the jets (or anybody, really) to do S-turns on final to try to make more space.    Some of the jet guys are not shy about doing pretty aggressive S-turns so that they don't have to go around.  

 

[rbp]

Honestly, I think the entire Mooney community needs to stop with various versions of the papa bear approach: "you gotta carry some extra speed on final in a mooney because the stall characteristics..."

and replace with momma bear: "you gotta be on speed for weight and gusts"