Considering Leaving General Aviation

[DCarlton]

13 minutes ago, WAFI said:

HA!! I would like to smack the Friday at 5 o'clock engineered idea it was to put the fuel selector out of reach in between my feet on my Mooney!!! Home depot supplied PVC pipe with two cuts in it, is my STC fuel selector tool.

The quality of certified work is built on experience not a certificate.

I can reach mine but I've gotta admit, every time I reach down to change tanks, I pray a little that it's going to turn easily.  And that's after almost 20 years of owning the same plane.  Maybe it's just me...  

[WAFI]

Just now, ilovecornfields said:

I’m interested in how you came to this realization. I’m an EAA member and I love the innovation that comes from experimental aircraft but everything I’ve seen shows the E-AB accident rate is at least twice what it is for certified aircraft. I’d love to see something that suggests otherwise.

The NTSB’s 2012 Findings

– E/ABs account for a disproportionate number of total accidents and an even more disproportionate share of fatal accidents when compared with similar non-E/AB aircraft conducting similar flight operations.

– Accident analyses indicate that powerplant failures and loss of control in flight are the most common E/AB aircraft accident occurrences by a large margin. Accident occurrences are similar for both new and used aircraft.

– Structural failures have not been a common occurrence among E/AB aircraft.

– Compared with similar non-E/AB aircraft, a much higher proportion of accidents involving E/AB aircraft occur early in the aircraft’s operational life.

– A similarly large proportion of E/AB aircraft accidents occur shortly after being purchased by a subsequent owner (14 of the 224 study accidents during 2011 occurred during the first flight by a new owner of a used E/AB aircraft).

 

https://www.aviationsafetymagazine.com/features/e-ab-aircraft-safety/

Common sense - I do need to look at statistics to realize a billet aluminum part is better than a cast aluminum part or EFI is better than a carburetor or variable time is better that fixed timing. All I am saying is STC's are keeping GA in the stone age.

 

[geoffb]

As you live with it and maintain it so that it reliably carries you through the air 100-150 hours per year, every year, you'll begin to appreciate that airplanes made out of airplane stuff can be remarkably reliable and efficient.  If you want to mod and tweak, EAB is where you'll want to play.

[jaylw314]

28 minutes ago, WAFI said:

Common sense - I do need to look at statistics to realize a billet aluminum part is better than a cast aluminum part or EFI is better than a carburetor or variable time is better that fixed timing. All I am saying is STC's are keeping GA in the stone age.

 

Common sense dictates that common sense is present half as often in the EA-B community, then 

Either that or common sense is neither common nor sensical 

[A64Pilot]

Honestly

36 minutes ago, WAFI said:

Common sense - I do need to look at statistics to realize a billet aluminum part is better than a cast aluminum part or EFI is better than a carburetor or variable time is better that fixed timing. All I am saying is STC's are keeping GA in the stone age.

 

To pick, but everything you said is not necessarily true, cast depending on use can be better. but why stop at billet, go forged, EFI is great until it quits, and variable timing is of very little use on an engine that operates in a very narrow RPM band, but all that stuff adds complexity.

Look at the STC’s to replace 100 yr old magneto’s, from what I have seen here they are far from plug n play forget about it, which amazes me it’s simple technology every lawnmower made in the last 30 years has been electronic ignition.

Someone found I guess it’s called a blog written by an NTPS graduate where he tested variable timing in his RV and being an NTPS guy it was very meticulous testing, his conclusion was there was little to be gained, it was posted a few months ago.

Of course for tens of millions of dollars perhaps a better engine could be built, but the profit due to such small numbers isn’t there, the cost of Certification is staggering.

That’s why Experimental is taking off.

I bet with modern automotive technology perhaps a 25% improvement in fuel efficiency is possible, but more valuable would be an engine that can run on auto fuel, I believe a modern combustion chamber on our existing engines could do that , but it’s not going to happen, not Certified anyway, perhaps Experimental, then maybe move into Certified, isn’t that how the Lycoming 390 was born?

[ilovecornfields]

1 hour ago, WAFI said:

Common sense - I do need to look at statistics to realize a billet aluminum part is better than a cast aluminum part or EFI is better than a carburetor or variable time is better that fixed timing. All I am saying is STC's are keeping GA in the stone age.

 

“Common sense” is the argument commonly used when someone can’t find any facts to support their argument. 
I appreciate innovation and the contribution that experimental airplanes have, but arguing that they are safer because you “feel” that way when the facts clearly illustrate the opposite doesn’t really mean much to me.

Yes, the STC process can be improved and NORSEE had led to positive changes in the certified world. That still doesn’t mean E-AB is safer because you feel that way. That’s not the way facts work.

 

[jaylw314]

40 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

I bet with modern automotive technology perhaps a 25% improvement in fuel efficiency is possible, but more valuable would be an engine that can run on auto fuel, I believe a modern combustion chamber on our existing engines could do that , but it’s not going to happen, not Certified anyway, perhaps Experimental, then maybe move into Certified, isn’t that how the Lycoming 390 was born?

My IO-360 already has a BSFC of about 0.4 lbs/hp-hr.  Car tech will only get you percentage points more.  From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake-specific_fuel_consumption , the Ford Ecoboost only gets 0.40 lbs/hp-hr.  Even an older Prius only gets you down to 0.37, but that's a 76 hp 1.5L motor.

[Hank]

2 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

Either that or common sense is neither common nor sensical 

Common sense is certainly not common!!

[EricJ]

2 hours ago, ilovecornfields said:

Yes, the STC process can be improved and NORSEE had led to positive changes in the certified world. That still doesn’t mean E-AB is safer because you feel that way. That’s not the way facts work.

I recall that NORSEE was specifically stated to be intended to include autopilots, since they were identified as safety items, but that does not seem to have gone anywhere.   I think the well-intentioned people within the FAA got overriden by other careerists who thought they were just doing their jobs, too.   The result is a complete dearth of GA autopilots, especially for Mooneys.

[Schllc]

I have only had one bad experience with a shop, and I don’t think my issue was quality of work, it’s more the predatory nature of how they managed the work. 
If I had one complaint about the industry in general it’s just communication. It’s a function of our society today, but it’s also the nature of the laws. 
Once people have your plane opened up, you have very little leverage, and most shops know this, so they communicate based on their convenience, not with a service oriented perspective. You aren’t going anywhere, so they don’t have to care.  Even the good ones know this and it changes their behavior. 
it was hard to adjust to, but once I understood it got easier to tolerate. 
it is what it is….

Find a guy you trust, ask them their process, apply a reality curve and add some to that, and set a good expectation.  Makes it all a lot easier. for me anyway…

[Hank]

29 minutes ago, Schllc said:

Find a guy you trust, ask them their process, apply a reality curve and add some to that, and set a good expectation.  Makes it all a lot easier. foe me anyway…

Just don't have problems away from home. Back in 2016, a 3 hour flight away, I was charged 1.6AMU to remove, repair.and remount a magneto that had failed enroute . . . .

[A64Pilot]

Funny thing, why don’t you see A&P’s driving Porsche’s and being Country Club members then?

Honestly there is significantly more money working at a John Deere dealership or the local Ford dealer. People that own auto and John Deere dealerships you DO see at the Country Club. So where is the money?

Things change HUGELY if you move out of the T hangar and into a fly-in community where at least one of your neighbors is an A&P / IA and several lathes and welders in the neighborhood, at least one will be a Master builder, another an electrician and a couple that know fabric inside and out. Come BFR time a couple are CFII’s and we even have a Retired Physician that can do basic Med.

That's in an 85 house neighborhood.

[hammdo]

35 minutes ago, Hank said:

Just don't have problems away from home. Back in 2016, a 3 hour flight away, I was charged 1.6AMU to remove, repair.and remount a magneto that had failed enroute . . . .

1.5 amu for a mixture control cable r-n-r - 50 miles from my home base.

had to pay for 2 A&Ps plus travel time to/from airport where I broke down. Nature of the business today...

-Don

[Hank]

54 minutes ago, Hank said:

Just don't have problems away from home. Back in 2016, a 3 hour flight away, I was charged 1.6AMU to remove, repair.and remount a magneto that had failed enroute . . . .

 

17 minutes ago, hammdo said:

1.5 amu for a mixture control cable r-n-r - 50 miles from my home base.

had to pay for 2 A&Ps plus travel time to/from airport where I broke down. Nature of the business today...

-Don

I used the local A&P where I found myself with a dead magneto. Drive 9 hours home, went back to get the plane in a couple or three weeks . . . The only travel expenses were my own.

Oh, the repaired magneto died again on the flight home, a wire was pinched when it was assembled and the internal gear sawed through it. 

[GeeBee]

The shop labor at my marina is 135/hour. The shop labor at my airport is 95/hour. Who would want to be an A&P?

[ilovecornfields]

2 hours ago, EricJ said:

I recall that NORSEE was specifically stated to be intended to include autopilots, since they were identified as safety items, but that does not seem to have gone anywhere.   I think the well-intentioned people within the FAA got overriden by other careerists who thought they were just doing their jobs, too.   The result is a complete dearth of GA autopilots, especially for Mooneys.

I don’t know about autopilots since I’m happy with my prehistoric KFC225 but my AOA indicator and landing height system were both reasonably priced and certified under NORSEE.

[Hank]

35 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

The shop labor at my marina is 135/hour. The shop labor at my airport is 95/hour. Who would want to be an A&P?

The mechanics aren't paid that rate, it goes to the shop owner, who then pays part of it to the mech, part to the landlord, part for utilities, part for insurance, part for payroll taxes, etc.

Back in the day, I was paid less than a third of what the shop billed for my time. And as everywhere, not everyone is at the same pay rate, but the billing rate doesn't change based on who does the work.

[GeeBee]

9 hours ago, Hank said:

The mechanics aren't paid that rate, it goes to the shop owner, who then pays part of it to the mech, part to the landlord, part for utilities, part for insurance, part for payroll taxes, etc.

Back in the day, I was paid less than a third of what the shop billed for my time. And as everywhere, not everyone is at the same pay rate, but the billing rate doesn't change based on who does the work.

The point is the total revenue. The marine shop has a lot less total liability exposure, not to mention regulatory exposure. Overhead costs for an airplane shop are way more than a marine shop. Overall being in the marine business is a lot more profitable and less exposed. Further a 40% disparity in pricing is not margins, it is gross magnitudes of order. If both shops have the same take, the marine mechanic is still making way more.

[Pinecone]

You cannot make any assumptions about the pay rate for the bottom line worker based on the price per hour charged for their work.  Just too many variables.

BTW, do marine mechanics have to go through significant training and be Federally certified?   There are auto mechanic certifications, but they are not Federal certifications.

 

[OR75]

Get an A&P / IA ! 
 

[Hank]

26 minutes ago, OR75 said:

Get an A&P / IA ! 

Sure thing. I'll quit my job, ignore my Masters degree, head back to junior college and in just two or three years I'll emerge with my A&P certificate and some job experience. My career will have been flushed, I'll have to sell the house and Mooney to pay alimony to my wife who would leave me . . . .

That's a great idea, but not feasible for very many of us.

[A64Pilot]

Years ago my John Deere 425 lawnmower had some kind of electrical problem so I took it to the dealer, honestly their hour rate was twice what the guy who was recovering my Maule charged. Turned out it was the battery, having a John Deere sticker on it meant it cost FOUR times what the Autozone battery cost, then I was charged for four hours of troubleshooting, which I don’t think I should have been charged, they are supposedly the Pro’s, why did it take them four hours to find the battery was bad? Needless to say I never returned.

I think this whole A&P thing is like hangars, Want to live in California or Ft. lauderdale, Miami etc your paying insane hangar rates and A&P rates to say nothing about insane housing costs.

I paid 125 a month for a brand new T hangar that was big enough for my Maule and my 140 in Camilla Ga., local A&P/IA I think charged $50 or maybe $75 an hour. 

I moved to Central Fl that is not an expensive part of Fl but it’s near the Villages and as all those people are from up North so they pay Northern prices, so therefore it’s difficult to find someone to cut the hedges for less than $50 an hour.

You think the guy that does yard work reports his income and pays taxes? So you can in fact do yard work and make more than an A&P.

‘I’ve had my A&P since 1989, never worked as one and never been paid for it, I couldn’t see how I could make a living with it, if nothing else the liability is crazy.

[WAFI]

I propose that the FAA create a whole new category of aircraft class. (Decertified) I agree there should be certified aircraft in this world for the commercial sector but I really think there should be a way to decertify your aircraft and fly it for personal use only.  If I know I will never use my plane commercially and willing to limit the market for resale, then decertifying my plane would be great. Still have the same rules as far as maintenance is concerned but be able to tap into the after market parts availability and fabrication of parts would really change the game.

I'm in the maritime industry and they essentially have this type classifications.

• Full commercial Vessel - Classed, very strict rules                             (Certified World - ATP, Training Schools)
• Limited commercial Vessel- Classed but less rules                            (Certified World - Freight, Mail)
• Private classed Vessel- much less rules but still many SOP's             (New Decertified World - Private aircraft owner non-commercial)
• Private not classed Vessel- very little rules                                        (Experimental / LSA World)

 

[GeeBee]

1 hour ago, Pinecone said:

You cannot make any assumptions about the pay rate for the bottom line worker based on the price per hour charged for their work.  Just too many variables.

BTW, do marine mechanics have to go through significant training and be Federally certified?   There are auto mechanic certifications, but they are not Federal certifications.

 

No they do not have to be certified. However the shop I use pays their Mercury factory certified mechanics 75-85 per hour. Nobody in general aviation is getting that kind of money after expenses. Shoot, HVAC here is making 55/hour as an apprentice and that includes full benefits including 401K match, health and drive home vehicle.

[WAFI]

Just now, GeeBee said:

No they do not have to be certified. However the shop I use pays their Mercury factory certified mechanics 75-85 per hour. Nobody in general aviation is getting that kind of money after expenses. Shoot, HVAC here is making 55/hour as an apprentice and that includes full benefits including 401K match, health and drive home vehicle.

Not completely correct, remember when you are talk about a mercury on your personal boat requires no certified mechanic to work on it. If your are talking about a commercial vessel then yes you are required to obtain a certified technician do certain work. For example you need an A&P to replace sheet metal on your Mooney and you would need a certified ABS Class or Loyds Class welder to replace shell plating on your steel vessel.  Once again its all about how the vessel is used vs how it was built. You can drop the Class Society at anytime and revert back to being a private vessel. Then have your backyard welder go at it.