I think we can expect new air show rules.

[N201MKTurbo]

Sad.

https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1591522149512073217

[DonMuncy]

I assume you are referencing the RBD midair at the air show. I was there earlier, but left before the accident. But yes, I expect ramifications. Simulated dogfights etc. are seemingly hazardous. I don't know what these two were doing at the time. I also assume this was the CAF's Fifi plane. What a terrible loss of the plane and almost certainly the lives of all on board.  

[N201MKTurbo]

2 hours ago, DonMuncy said:

I assume you are referencing the RBD midair at the air show. I was there earlier, but left before the accident. But yes, I expect ramifications. Simulated dogfights etc. are seemingly hazardous. I don't know what these two were doing at the time. I also assume this was the CAF's Fifi plane. What a terrible loss of the plane and almost certainly the lives of all on board.  

Isn’t FIFI a B29?
 

I heard a rumor that it was the Texas Raiders B17. 

https://commemorativeairforce.org/aircraft/2

https://commemorativeairforce.org/units/73

[PeteMc]

5 minutes ago, DonMuncy said:

I don't know what these two were doing at the time.

My condolences to the families and friends...

I know very little about formation flying, even though I've had *some* training.  Any chance it was a joining maneuver that went wrong?

 

[N201MKTurbo]

5 minutes ago, PeteMc said:

My condolences to the families and friends...

I know very little about formation flying, even though I've had *some* training.  Any chance it was a joining maneuver that went wrong?

 

It looked like the B17 flew through a simulated dog fight.

Im sorry, people have been texting me videos, but I don’t know how to get them on here.

[KSMooniac]

P63 and B17. Big thread going on beechtalk right now. Consensus seems to say the P63 blew a turn and went wide right into the B17. Those in the know say the fighters are to stay on one side of the runway and the bombers on the other. That fits with what I watched at that show last year...continuous patterns on both sides, and no cross-runway formations or paths.

Truly awful tragedy.

Sent from my LM-V600 using Tapatalk

[DCarlton]

Horrendous.  Tragic.  Hopefully no paid airshow passengers on the B17.  Guessing the P63 couldn't see the B17 when he was banked in that tight turn.  

[EricJ]

4 hours ago, KSMooniac said:

P63 and B17. Big thread going on beechtalk right now. Consensus seems to say the P63 blew a turn and went wide right into the B17. Those in the know say the fighters are to stay on one side of the runway and the bombers on the other. That fits with what I watched at that show last year...continuous patterns on both sides, and no cross-runway formations or paths.

Truly awful tragedy.

Sent from my LM-V600 using Tapatalk


 

I saw one pretty revealing video.   The B-17 was on a straight track down the runway, the P-63 in a fast, overtaking left turn to the left of the B-17.   With its wing up, I'm not sure the P-63 saw the B-17 until too late, especially if he was looking ahead where he was supposed to be, even further to his left and not at the B-17 on his right..   It looked a bit like he was already turning pretty tight and tried to tighten it up at the last second, but it was too late.   It was a high speed impact.

After seeing this vid my thought was also that changes will be needed, because this would have been avoidable with better planning.   It seems predictable that a left turn into a track of airplanes on the right could create visibility issues for the turning airplane, especially as fast and hard as this guy appeared to be turning.

Just my dos centavos from seeing one spectator vid.

Very tragic in any case.   :'(

[Pinecone]

A thread on another forum pointed out that the P-63 was following other fighters, but went very wide.

From the description of the pattern, wide meant crossing the boundary between the two patterns

I posted this on the other forum about a near mid air that nearly took me out.

 

While there are formation training/qualifications to fly formation in shows, there is no requirement for non-formation flying.

I was one of a number of T-34s that came close to being involved in a multi plane mid-air at Sun n Fun.

At Sun n Fun, at the time, the L and O aircraft did flybys on the 500 foot show line, pulling up and crossing behind the crowd. T-6s did the 1000 foot line (runway). The fighters and bombers did the 1500 foot show line, with pull up for "downwind" at or below 800 feet. The T-34s had a race track angled 45 degrees to the runway at 1000 feet with the T-28s 90 degrees to the T-34s at 1500. GREAT show for the crowd. Lots of planes and always planes roaring by.

One of the fighter guys did not understand altimeter lag and that you cannot zoom to an altitude THEN roll and pull and not go above the altitude you started to maneuver. So, suddenly there is the underside of a fighter, belly up to a formation of 18 T-34s, close enough to see how dirty the belly was.

Pilot never saw us. And would not acknowledge that he screwed up and busted through his altitude.

[PeteMc]

3 hours ago, Pinecone said:

And would not acknowledge that he screwed up and busted through his altitude.

Hopefully the word has gotten around and he's been banned from any other air show.  Granted there shouldn't be Alt busts.  But if there are and all acknowledge the error and use it as a leaning experience, great.  But with the attitude you got back from the guy, sounds like that should have been his last show. 

 

[Pinecone]

18 minutes ago, PeteMc said:

Hopefully the word has gotten around and he's been banned from any other air show.  Granted there shouldn't be Alt busts.  But if there are and all acknowledge the error and use it as a leaning experience, great.  But with the attitude you got back from the guy, sounds like that should have been his last show. 

The plane is actually for sale right now.  But this happened around 20 years ago, and he owned it, flew if for many years after.

Air boss made him apologize.  He started with, "I was told I have to apologize, but I don't think I did anything wrong...."

What a d**k.

At another air show, one of his brakes locked up.  A couple guys worked overnight fixing his plane.  For free.  He did not even say Thank you.

[EricJ]

CAF has released crew names:

https://commemorativeairforce.org/news/names-of-the-aircrew-from-texas-raiders-and-the-kingcobra

[whiskytango]

On 11/13/2022 at 10:40 AM, Pinecone said:

Air boss made him apologize.  He started with, "I was told I have to apologize, but I don't think I did anything wrong...."

At the other end of the spectrum are the Blue Angels.  After every performance they have a debrief, and each pilot admits to even the smallest mistakes they made.  Each admission ends with "I will fix it, Boss, and I am just glad to be here".  These guys are the best.

[Utah20Gflyer]

Air shows are exciting and enjoyable, it would be a shame to loose them or see them diminished.

On the other hand I absolutely hate to see people killed doing something that is an optional activity.

I don’t have any answers.  
 

very sad situation.  

[N201MKTurbo]

Two proposed rules by me.

No passengers during airshows.

Speed differential limits for converging aircraft. Unless specifically authorized.

 

The P63 was going too fast. How can that be mitigated?

[Hank]

4 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Two proposed rules by me.

No passengers during airshows.

Speed differential limits for converging aircraft. Unless specifically authorized.

 

The P63 was going too fast. How can that be mitigated?

The B17 and the P63 were supposed to be at different altitudes. No one has officially stated the altitude of the collision. Don't you think it's premature to blame the fighter pilot causing the collision by being too fast?

Also, there were no passengers, the CAF President stated that the B17 was typically crewed by 4 or 5 people. Since six people were killed, and the P63 is single place, that leaves five in the bomber, a typical crew. Wartime bombing missions had a crew of 10, but I'm guessing no bombardier or gunners are used anymore.

[PT20J]

8 hours ago, whiskytango said:

At the other end of the spectrum are the Blue Angels.  After every performance they have a debrief, and each pilot admits to even the smallest mistakes they made.  Each admission ends with "I will fix it, Boss, and I am just glad to be here".  These guys are the best.

I agree the Blues are good, but they have their share of accidents. Over the years since the team was formed in 1946, 20 pilots have been lost according to Wikipedia. The Thunderbirds, formed in 1953 have lost 21. That's about a 1 in 10 mortality rate.

Skip

 

[Pinecone]

5 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Two proposed rules by me.

No passengers during airshows.

Speed differential limits for converging aircraft. Unless specifically authorized.

 

The P63 was going too fast. How can that be mitigated?

They were not supposed to be converging.

B-17 GS was 165.  P-63 was 219.  Not a huge speed difference.

Passengers are NOT allowed in an airshow.  Only crew members.

[N201MKTurbo]

I’m glad we are all talking about this. 
 

Do you really think the B17 requires 5 people to fly safely? Or was it an excuse to give some members a ride? I don’t know for sure. Any B17 pilots on the forum?

219 is over the speed limit in class D.

[MooneyMitch]

2 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

219 is over the speed limit in class D.

Do Class D rules apply during an airshow situation?’

Reason I ask……. during our recent Central Coast Airfest airshow, demonstration and aerobatic aircraft were not complying to Class D airspace altitudes and speeds.

During the 3 day event, at times during the performances, ceilings were below 1000’ AGL and speeds reached well over 200 kts., specifically with the F18 and F35 flights .

[DCarlton]

2 hours ago, PT20J said:

I agree the Blues are good, but they have their share of accidents. Over the years since the team was formed in 1946, 20 pilots have been lost according to Wikipedia. The Thunderbirds, formed in 1953 have lost 21. That's about a 1 in 10 mortality rate.

Skip

 

I used to work periodically at R-63 North of Nellis AFB back in the '80s.  I could sit outside near the Indian Springs Aux Air Field after lunch and watch the Thunderbirds practice.  That's the area where the entire diamond formation crashed.  A terrible period for the Thunderbirds.  

[PT20J]

14 minutes ago, DCarlton said:

I used to work periodically at R-63 North of Nellis AFB back in the '80s.  I could sit outside near the Indian Springs Aux Air Field after lunch and watch the Thunderbirds practice.  That's the area where the entire diamond formation crashed.  A terrible period for the Thunderbirds.  

Yeah, that was a bummer. Lead's plane had a mechanical failure that limited elevator travel and the whole formation following him into the ground coming out of a loop as I recall.

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, MooneyMitch said:

Do Class D rules apply during an airshow situation?’

Reason I ask……. during our recent Central Coast Airfest airshow, demonstration and aerobatic aircraft were not complying to Class D airspace altitudes and speeds.

During the 3 day event, at times during the performances, ceilings were below 1000’ AGL and speeds reached well over 200 kts., specifically with the F18 and F35 flights .

I’m sure they had a waiver. It would be interesting to read it.

[Marauder]

I’m glad we are all talking about this. 
 
Do you really think the B17 requires 5 people to fly safely? Or was it an excuse to give some members a ride? I don’t know for sure. Any B17 pilots on the forum?
219 is over the speed limit in class D.

Pilot, co-pilot, flight engineer/radio operator and 2 “mechanics”. Texas Raider performed some single main gear flybys with smoke. In addition to ground handling, I suspect the “mechanics” were there to assist in emergency gear extension, fuel transfers if required, etc.

Juan did a nice summary of what they know so far. Altitude separation is an open question at this point.

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[Pinecone]

12 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I’m glad we are all talking about this. 
 

Do you really think the B17 requires 5 people to fly safely? Or was it an excuse to give some members a ride? I don’t know for sure. Any B17 pilots on the forum?

219 is over the speed limit in class D.

Pilot, copilot, flight engineer, and 2x scanners.

The scanners would be a the waist gun positions and look for things like smoke or fire.  Confirm gear down.  

I am not sure that the B-17 uses scanners, but I know that they are on board the B-29s when they fly.