Landing power reduction

[DCarlton]

15 hours ago, donkaye said:

When taking off, the plane should not "skitter or dance" on the ground before liftoff.  Use what Bob Krommer calls "The Mooney Pull", about a 5 pound control pressure pull in the yoke as speed is gained on the takeoff roll.  The plane will fly itself off when it is ready to fly without "skittering and dancing".

Regarding "It dawned on me....", you're talking apples and oranges.  When taking off you have much more airflow over the wing due to full power.  When landing you are at idle power, less airflow over the wing.  Don't try to compare takeoff performance with landing performance.

Good point about airflow over the wing due to full power.  Might be apples and oranges but the take off speeds are similar to the landing speeds aren't they within a few mph?  I've never compared take off and landing performance until I realized they are comparable (at least at near sea level standard conditions).  What's wrong with the letting the plane get to the point where it's more than ready to fly (I use the term skitter and dance for lack of a better description)?  I really don't see a downside.  You're not moving over the ground much faster in a Mooney than you typically land (I'm avoiding stating numbers here because everyone will argue about those too and every plane is a little different).  I started holding it on a tad until it was more than ready years ago after pulling off too early on a really hot high DA day and drifting off the runway over into the weeds before I managed to get it climbing.  Holding it down for a moment seems like an added safety benefit to me; a little extra margin.  I don't see a downside other than your wheels turning a few rpm more than necessary.  What am I missing?  I'm not trying to impress anyone or move up to jets and rotate at a specific speeds.  Just stay safe with a little extra margin.  

[donkaye]

5 minutes ago, DCarlton said:

Good point about airflow over the wing due to full power.  Might be apples and oranges but the take off speeds are similar to the landing speeds aren't they within a few mph?  I've never compared take off and landing performance until I realized they are comparable (at least at near sea level standard conditions).  What's wrong with the letting the plane get to the point where it's more than ready to fly (I use the term skitter and dance for lack of a better description)?  I really don't see a downside.  You're not moving over the ground much faster in a Mooney than you typically land (I'm avoiding stating numbers here because everyone will argue about those too and every plane is a little different).  I started holding it on a tad until it was more than ready years ago after pulling off too early on a really hot high DA day and drifting off the runway over into the weeds before I managed to get it climbing.  Holding it down for a moment seems like an added safety benefit to me; a little extra margin.  I don't see a downside other than your wheels turning a few mph more than necessary.  What am I missing?  I'm not trying to impress anyone or learn to fly jets and rotate at a specific speed.  Just stay safe.  

Don't you want excellence in your piloting skills?  Using the "Mooney Pull" is one aspect of that.  The plane will smoothly fly off the runway.  Holding it on any longer than necessary can lead to a bounce and loss of control.  The only time the plane might be held on the runway a little longer is if there is a stiff gusty wind or gusty crosswind.  At high DA in a N/A airplane it's important to keep the plane in ground effect until you reach at least Vx. And ground effect in our airplanes means just a foot off the ground max.  The lower the better.  Too many people I've flown with think it's 5 or more feet above ground.  The reduction in induced drag at 10% of the wingspan is 48%.  Our wingspan is 36'1".  That means 3½ feet AGL for ground effect. Since the wing sits at about 2½' AGL that means the best use of ground effect is about 1' off the ground.

[DCarlton]

42 minutes ago, donkaye said:

Don't you want excellence in your piloting skills?  Using the "Mooney Pull" is one aspect of that.  The plane will smoothly fly off the runway.  Holding it on any longer than necessary can lead to a bounce and loss of control.  The only time the plane might be held on the runway a little longer is if there is a stiff gusty wind or gusty crosswind.  At high DA in a N/A airplane it's important to keep the plane in ground effect until you reach at least Vx. And ground effect in our airplanes means just a foot off the ground max.  The lower the better.  Too many people I've flown with think it's 5 or more feet above ground.  The reduction in induced drag at 10% of the wingspan is 48%.  Our wingspan is 36'1".  That means 3½ feet AGL for ground effect. Since the wing sits at about 2½' AGL that means the best use of ground effect is about 1' off the ground.

True you could bounce if on a rough runway.  I'm used to long smooth runways.  I'll see if I can find the Mooney Pull article.  I tried following the book years ago taking off and really didn't like the feeling.  With skittering and dancing, I'm not talking about anything extreme though; just a feeling, you know the plane is ready.  It's not something anyone on the ground could even see.  I'll try getting off a tad sooner and keeping it in ground effect a bit and see how that works but to me, flying in ground effect too long seems like a potentially bad thing too.  I like getting away from the ground when it's time to get away from the ground.  The feeling that the plane is ready to climb and when you do climb, it does it with some authority... like a good Mooney.     

[EricJ]

On 10/26/2022 at 6:46 AM, JayMatt said:

My AME told me that he used to land his by taking the flaps out 5 feet off the runway and it greased the landing every time. I haven't had the nerve to try that yet and it doesn't sound all that safe to me but he lives on a little bitty 22' wide strip that 2700' long. I guess it just worked for him...

A friend that had an E model with hydraulic flaps told me that once long ago it had just exactly the right amount of leak that when he got in ground effect and flared it'd push the flaps up and do a really nice auto-land.   He eventually got it fixed, but he thought it was a really nice system while it worked that way.   

[T. Peterson]

21 hours ago, DCarlton said:

I’d like to share a thought that came to mind this week during a couple of flights.  Comments welcome.  Right or wrong, when taking off, I tend to hold my plane on the runway until it’s more than ready to fly.  With takeoff flaps, I’ve noticed over time that it starts to skitter and dance and want to fly at about the same speed every time (unless high DA conditions are encountered).  It dawned on me that I can’t expect my plane to land and stick with takeoff or greater flaps if I’m near the runway in ground effect at speeds higher than those observed taking off.  With that in mind, I’m trying to slow my speeds a tad more and trust the numbers.  So far so good.  My landings seem to be improving.  And BTW, with a three blade, I use a tad of power until I’m ready to land; I’m guessing it’s just enough power to offset or eliminate the drag from the prop.  When you pull to idle the additional drag puts you on the runway.  My theory anyway.   Not a CFI or pro pilot.  

Bingo! The same thought came to me a few weeks ago. That is exactly why all these fellas beat the airspeed drumbeat. Airplane simply won’t land right till the airspeed is right. A clue is exactly what you noted about the skittishness on takeoff. My problem is I like airspeed, till I don’t!!

[T. Peterson]

20 hours ago, donkaye said:

When taking off, the plane should not "skitter or dance" on the ground before liftoff.  Use what Bob Krommer calls "The Mooney Pull", about a 5 pound control pressure pull in the yoke as speed is gained on the takeoff roll.  The plane will fly itself off when it is ready to fly without "skittering and dancing".

Regarding "It dawned on me....", you're talking apples and oranges.  When taking off you have much more airflow over the wing due to full power.  When landing you are at idle power, less airflow over the wing.  Don't try to compare takeoff performance with landing performance.

I too get a little dance on takeoff! Now I can’t wait to try this “Mooney Pull”.

Thank you!!

[PeteMc]

As great as the "Mooney Pull" sounds, I've only been on a few runways where it works.  Most (even big metro airports) I've flown off of have to many irregularities to give you a "smooth" roll to just be able to fly it off.  Be it winds or bumps in the runway, I always find that time when I get *near* TO speed to be *interesting* at the very least.

NOTE: I fly a K with a heavier nose, your "take off roll" may vary with a J or earlier/later model...

 

Edited October 28, 2022 by PeteMc

[donkaye]

4 hours ago, PeteMc said:

As great as the "Mooney Pull" sounds, I've only been on a few runways where it works.  Most (even big metro airports) I've flown off of have to many irregularities to give you a "smooth" roll to just be able to fly it off.  Be it winds or bumps in the runway, I always find that time when I get *near* TO speed to be *interesting* at the very least.

NOTE: I fly a K with a heavier nose, your "take off roll" may vary with a J or earlier/later model...

 

You need to trim the nose up a little more before you start the TO roll.

[PeteMc]

4 hours ago, donkaye said:

You need to trim the nose up a little more before you start the TO roll.

It's already up, which if you think about it only makes it worse.  You really can't fight the physics of the plane unweighting the wheels as it nears TO speed.  Add to that the nose up angle and you're going to get hops and skips on anything other than a smooth runway. 

Leaving LEX yesterday even near gross, with the wind gusts and the bumpy runway in the low 60s I started to get the skips as the bumps would launch me, but I wasn't about to pull up.  At my home field on Rwy 32 there is a big hump right about the time I get into the low 60s and it launches me every time.  Tried slowing the TO roll to pass it and even more of a short TO, but it's just in the wrong place for me.  So you deal with the hop or a couple of times I've actually just lifted off in Ground Effect (long runway) and continued the acceleration before actually trying to climb. 

I understand the "Mooney Pull" and I guess my earlier reply had to do with the "skitter or dance" comment.  In reality I guess I do use the "Mooney Pull" when it is time to actually TO.  My point is the Mooney Pull will not stop the skitter or dance on a bumpy runway as you near TO speed.  Just plain physics unless you push forward on the yoke to keep the weight on the wheels (which is why I commented on the non Ks).  But if you're trimmed up as everyone says to do in the K, you're only going to allow the wheels to unweight as you near TO speeds.

 

[N201MKTurbo]

On my takeoff from Tucson International yesterday, the winds were pretty gusty. It skittered a bit before getting enough speed to get airborne. I don't know what you can do about it. It doesn't seem to cause any harm. Just kind of the nature of the situation. 

[PT20J]

Skitter and dance? Sounds like a new disco move. Let's think about this...

A lot us learned to fly in Pipers and Cessnas and were taught a couple of techniques that don't work as well in Mooneys.

Normal takeoffs: Most of us were taught to wait for some particular speed and "rotate" to a takeoff attitude. (Rotation is really a jet thing, but let's ignore that for now). That works in planes that sit flat, but the Mooneys sit tail low. My M20J sits on the ground at 5 deg ANU (aircraft nose up). The normal climb attitude is 7 deg ANU, so there is not a lot of "rotation" at takeoff. But with the nose high attitude, the Mooney wing starts generating a lot of lift earlier in the takeoff roll than the trainers and if you wait too long to "rotate" it gets light on the mains and does the skitter and dance thing. Bob's 5 lb pull avoids all that and lets the airplane just gracefully leave the ground when it's ready to fly.

Crosswind takeoffs: Most of us were also taught to hold the airplane on the ground with forward pressure longer than usual before rotating in order to get a rapid and clean liftoff and avoid any tendency to settle back onto the runway perhaps with sideways drift. But if you try to hold the Mooney down as it gets light on the mains, you transfer weight to the nosewheel and this can easily lead to a wild ride a.k.a. wheelbarrowing. I find that Bob's method gives me clean enough liftoff even with winds that it's not an issue. But, if you are worried about it, try taking off flaps up. This will reduce the induced angle of attack and the airplane will act more like the trainers. True, the liftoff speed will be 5-7 kts higher and you will use more runway, but the airplane is accelerating pretty rapidly as it nears liftoff speed and you'll likely only need another 100' or so. I've never measured it.

With regard to bumpy runways, there is not much you can do about that. The Mooney stiff suspension doesn't help. It's like a rough water takeoff in a seaplane -- you have to "fly" the elevators on the ground as best you can to smooth things out as much as possible. Just don't overdo it, and if you do get launched into the air prematurely, just keep a slightly nose high attitude so that it doesn't come back down on the nose wheel.

Skip

[Shadrach]

7 hours ago, PeteMc said:

It's already up, which if you think about it only makes it worse.  You really can't fight the physics of the plane unweighting the wheels as it nears TO speed.  Add to that the nose up angle and you're going to get hops and skips on anything other than a smooth runway. 

You can't fight physics, but you can do your part to hasten the transition to and from flying. Hops and skips should not be an everyday occurrence.  Maybe a little on a hot, muggy day at gross. Under normal circumstances with the correct trim and elevator input, the plane should lift off cleanly without drama.

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, PT20J said:

Bob's 5 lb pull avoids all that and lets the airplane just gracefully leave the ground when it's ready to fly.

Yes, its the time between the 5 Lb. pull and gracefully leaving the ground, where the skitter and dance happen.

We are not bigtime pilots because we can takeoff on nice calm days. its because we can handle the edge cases.

[PeteMc]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

Hops and skips should not be an everyday occurrence. 

Not talking every day.  Just pointing out that the "Mooney Pull" is really not a fix all TO.  In my experience a smooth TO without the "skitter or dance" mentioned above is a nature of the runway and has nothing to do with the "Mooney Pull" that, *IF* I understand the comments, is the fix to all skitter and dancing.

And no disrespect to @PT20J's great recap of the differences we were taught in basic training in Piper...  But if you're on a uneven surface (even slightly in the case of runways) when the plane is not ready to fly but there is enough lift to unweight the wheels, there is a STRONG probability of a less than smooth TO.  Is it only for a matter of seconds before you get that last bit of speed sure, but it's going to happen.  Maybe a better way to explain it is to take aerodynamics out of it...  Think of it like a kid on a bike that goes speeding down a hill and cruises over a bump to see how much air they can get.  A Mooney near TO speed is going to get some air, just like that bike.  But if there's not enough lift to continue flying, it's not going to.

I'll also toss out what a long time Mooney flyer told me when I first bought my plane, which I never practiced....  It wasn't described as the "Mooney Pull" with extra back pressure/trim, he just said to just pull it off at that first hop and (wait for it...) ride the ground effect.  With a good strong pull back on the yoke (or trim) is that what the end result of the "Mooney Pull" is?  I don't know, just pondering.  And on a good long runway, maybe it doesn't matter.

And not being an aeronautical engineer I accept that I may be blowing smoke.  But I stand by what engineering and physics knowledge I do have to say the "Mooney Pull" is not a fix for a bumpy windy runway.  It certainly can give you a smooth lift off if the conditions are right.  But it's not going to fix "getting some air" like the kid on a bike when you take the relatively light aircraft, due to the lift you do have, over a bump and it gets launched it into the air for a moment.

[Hank]

My Owners Manual addresses thus, recommending a light pull near takeoff speed. See the first *  below.

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

My Owners Manual addresses thus, recommending a light pull near takeoff speed. See the first *  below.

It is interesting that it says to make a turn into the wind after takeoff. I thought you were supposed to maintain runway heading and drift with the wind.

[Hank]

29 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

It is interesting that it says to make a turn into the wind after takeoff. I thought you were supposed to maintain runway heading and drift with the wind.

That's for crosswind takeoffs. Isn't that what you do? Or do you let the wind slew the tail around as you weathervane into the wind? The former is much friendlier for your pax. Either will have you fly the runway heading.

Oh, I just noticed--my primary CFI wanted me to fly the extended runway path, to the extent of taking the controls at ~300 agl so I could look out the back window and see how crooked I was. 

So which is right--align flight path with runway direction, or aim the nose to point in the runway direction and drift however far off to the side the wind pushes you?

[T. Peterson]

4 hours ago, PeteMc said:

Not talking every day.  Just pointing out that the "Mooney Pull" is really not a fix all TO.  In my experience a smooth TO without the "skitter or dance" mentioned above is a nature of the runway and has nothing to do with the "Mooney Pull" that, *IF* I understand the comments, is the fix to all skitter and dancing.

And no disrespect to @PT20J's great recap of the differences we were taught in basic training in Piper...  But if you're on a uneven surface (even slightly in the case of runways) when the plane is not ready to fly but there is enough lift to unweight the wheels, there is a STRONG probability of a less than smooth TO.  Is it only for a matter of seconds before you get that last bit of speed sure, but it's going to happen.  Maybe a better way to explain it is to take aerodynamics out of it...  Think of it like a kid on a bike that goes speeding down a hill and cruises over a bump to see how much air they can get.  A Mooney near TO speed is going to get some air, just like that bike.  But if there's not enough lift to continue flying, it's not going to.

I'll also toss out what a long time Mooney flyer told me when I first bought my plane, which I never practiced....  It wasn't described as the "Mooney Pull" with extra back pressure/trim, he just said to just pull it off at that first hop and (wait for it...) ride the ground effect.  With a good strong pull back on the yoke (or trim) is that what the end result of the "Mooney Pull" is?  I don't know, just pondering.  And on a good long runway, maybe it doesn't matter.

And not being an aeronautical engineer I accept that I may be blowing smoke.  But I stand by what engineering and physics knowledge I do have to say the "Mooney Pull" is not a fix for a bumpy windy runway.  It certainly can give you a smooth lift off if the conditions are right.  But it's not going to fix "getting some air" like the kid on a bike when you take the relatively light aircraft, due to the lift you do have, over a bump and it gets launched it into the air for a moment.

I understand your point about a bumpy runway, but I think rather, that crosswind components may have a more significant effect. Again I am no expert, just mulling things over.

[DCarlton]

Interesting discussion.  I’m hesitant to toss out a number without another flight but at near sea level with takeoff off flaps, I think I feel the skitter before 80 mph.  I’m usually off well before 85.  So….  I wasn’t really talking about holding it on long to gain a little climb performance margin.  Just a few seconds, long enough to know it’s really ready to fly.  I’m gonna try the pull during my next flight just to see when it flies off the runway then let the speed build a tad before climbing.  BTW I tried rotating at book speeds years ago and it always felt mushy.  Does anyone ever stall a plane taking off under standard conditions.  Another tangent but I can’t recall that being discussed in training (it’s been a long time).  

[Deb]

23 hours ago, Hank said:

That's for crosswind takeoffs. Isn't that what you do? Or do you let the wind slew the tail around as you weathervane into the wind? The former is much friendlier for your pax. Either will have you fly the runway heading.

 

23 hours ago, Hank said:

So which is right--align flight path with runway direction, or aim the nose to point in the runway direction and drift however far off to the side the wind pushes you?

There’s a discussion here https://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly/maneuvers/should-you-fly-runway-heading-or-runway-centerline-on-takeoff-vfr/.

Basically, it depends whether it’s a towered or non-towered.

At non-towered airports, the Airplane Flying Handbook states on page 5-6:   
"During initial climb, it is important that the takeoff path remain aligned with the runway to avoid drifting into obstructions or into the path of another aircraft that may be taking off from a parallel runway. A flight instructor should help the student identify two points inline ahead of the runway to use as a tracking reference. As long as those two points are inline, the airplane is remaining on the desired track. Proper scanning techniques are essential to a safe takeoff and climb, not only for maintaining attitude and direction, but also for avoiding collisions near the airport."

At towered airports, referring to the ATC instruction “fly runway heading”, FAA JO Order 7110.65W (Controller’s “Bible”) states:   
“When cleared to "fly or maintain runway heading," pilots are expected to fly or maintain the heading that corresponds with the extended centerline of the departure runway. Drift correction shall not be applied [Emphasis added]. For instance, if the actual magnetic heading of the runway centerline for Runway 4 is 044, fly 044."

Further, the Instrument Procedures Handbook states on page 1-42:    
"Runway heading is the magnetic direction that corresponds with the runway centerline extended (charted on the airport diagram), not the numbers painted on the runway. Pilots cleared to 'fly or maintain runway heading' are expected to fly or maintain the published heading that corresponds with the extended centerline of the departure runway (until otherwise instructed by ATC), and are not to apply drift correction [for wind]."

[GeeBee]

Deb is correct. I only can remember being expected explicitly to fly "runway track" at one airport and that was Dublin, Ireland. The Airbus has a button for that by the way, Boeing does not. RNAV off the runway can help but on many systems you must be above 400' for it to engage in NAV mode.

 

[PT20J]

43 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

Deb is correct. I only can remember being expected explicitly to fly "runway track" at one airport and that was Dublin, Ireland. The Airbus has a button for that by the way, Boeing does not. RNAV off the runway can help but on many systems you must be above 400' for it to engage in NAV mode.

 

GFC 500 will fly TRK or HDG. 

 

[Hank]

1 hour ago, Deb said:

 

There’s a discussion here https://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly/maneuvers/should-you-fly-runway-heading-or-runway-centerline-on-takeoff-vfr/.

Basically, it depends whether it’s a towered or non-towered.

At non-towered airports, the Airplane Flying Handbook states on page 5-6:   
"During initial climb, it is important that the takeoff path remain aligned with the runway to avoid drifting into obstructions or into the path of another aircraft that may be taking off from a parallel runway. A flight instructor should help the student identify two points inline ahead of the runway to use as a tracking reference. As long as those two points are inline, the airplane is remaining on the desired track. Proper scanning techniques are essential to a safe takeoff and climb, not only for maintaining attitude and direction, but also for avoiding collisions near the airport."

At towered airports, referring to the ATC instruction “fly runway heading”, FAA JO Order 7110.65W (Controller’s “Bible”) states:   
“When cleared to "fly or maintain runway heading," pilots are expected to fly or maintain the heading that corresponds with the extended centerline of the departure runway. Drift correction shall not be applied [Emphasis added]. For instance, if the actual magnetic heading of the runway centerline for Runway 4 is 044, fly 044."

Further, the Instrument Procedures Handbook states on page 1-42:    
"Runway heading is the magnetic direction that corresponds with the runway centerline extended (charted on the airport diagram), not the numbers painted on the runway. Pilots cleared to 'fly or maintain runway heading' are expected to fly or maintain the published heading that corresponds with the extended centerline of the departure runway (until otherwise instructed by ATC), and are not to apply drift correction [for wind]."

Well that explains it! I'm based at, and I product of, non-towered fields. My visits to them are infrequent, but I do know that when ATC gives you a heading to fly that no correction is made.

[Arthur]

On 10/24/2022 at 4:23 PM, Bigdaddie said:

I have a M20K 231.  I have been playing with landing configuration such as landing with 2/3 flaps and such to improve my landings (it doesn't help that my day job is flying an Airbus A350, a little different sight picture)!  When does everyone reduce the power to idle on a normal landing (no extreme winds or crazy conditions)?  I want to pull power over the airport boundary, but the sink rate increase makes me very uncomfortable.  I tend to pull the power just prior to the numbers but I feel like I have too much energy in the flare even though I get the stall warning prior to touchdown.  I rarely bounce and feel like touchdown is at a fairly high elevator defection.  It's just the short delay between main and nose gear touchdown that gets my attention.

I am a low time Mooney pilot and did get a checkout prior to flying the airplane.  It seems like the more I fly it the worse my landings are.  I just want to be safe and thus consulting you Mooney EXPERTS.  BTW, I am not totally unexperienced as I am a CFII, MEI, ATP with about 15,000 hrs of flight time.  As I say, I'm only a little smarter than the next guy because I admit my limitations.

Thanks everyone.  The support on this forum is awesome and I am proud to be part of the Mooney community. 

Another little tip I’ve used is a quick glance through the pilot side window to determine height above touch down.

[Bigdaddie]

On 10/28/2022 at 6:36 PM, Hank said:

That's for crosswind takeoffs. Isn't that what you do? Or do you let the wind slew the tail around as you weathervane into the wind? The former is much friendlier for your pax. Either will have you fly the runway heading.

Oh, I just noticed--my primary CFI wanted me to fly the extended runway path, to the extent of taking the controls at ~300 agl so I could look out the back window and see how crooked I was. 

So which is right--align flight path with runway direction, or aim the nose to point in the runway direction and drift however far off to the side the wind pushes you?

You ALWAYS want to maintain runway track until clear of all obstacles.  We use 400’ AGL at the airlines as a safe altitude to make any initial turns.  The way I’ve always taught and flown crosswind takeoffs is to use cross control (aileron into to wind and rudder as needed to maintain track) until airborne then slowly transition to a crab into the wind to maintain track.  The aileron into the wind is probably the single best tool for making a smooth crosswind TO or landing in a light airplane.  Also make sure to keep that aileron into the wind after touchdown and during rollout.  I’ve seen too many times where a pilot will release aileron after touchdown and we immediately head for the grass.