Transition Training in Mooneys

[Parker_Woodruff]

19 minutes ago, donkaye said:

I really recommend the latest LHS 200-C.  While the 100 was very good, the 200-C is even better.

Any chance you've been able to overlay the audio on some updated landing videos?

[hammdo]

Me too! I wanting to get mine updated! 
 

-Don
 

 

[Pinecone]

I just had a 200-C installed.  AMAZING device.

[good2eat]

Install in process for me - looking forward to seeing how it helps!

[midlifeflyer]

On 10/21/2022 at 10:55 AM, Parker_Woodruff said:

Correct, but I'll add it's also not a fault to pad the landing with a tiny shot of power after a slightly-too-aggressive/eager flare puts you a foot or two too high above the runway.  You can still salvage an ok landing here without making yourself feel the arrival.

 

It's not, but I think @donkaye is differentiating between the elements of a normal good landing (or even a short one) and one where we are being called on to do something special, whether powering on the back side of the power curve for a landing on a very short runway over trees or to salvage a too high flare that threatens to drop us in. 

[Shadrach]

On 10/20/2022 at 8:32 PM, skykrawler said:

Some of the shortest landings I have seen are performed under power on the back side of the power curve.  This also results in a nice nose high attitude.

Personally I prefer not to use power when gravity and drag will do.  I prefer steep, power off approaches for short field landing but the plane must be slowed beyond the comfort level of most pilots and then pitched to stay behind the drag curve in descent. Done at max performance, all or nearly all of the elevator is used in the flare.
 

It is definitely easier to drag it in behind the power curve as long as the engine cooperates. 

[N201MKTurbo]

I was doing a flight review with a CFI who subsequently became an FAA airman inspector. We were doing the final landing and he asked for a short field over an obstacle. Then he said (in jest I think) I want you to make the first turnoff. So I did.

I crossed the obstacle power off about 1/4 inch above the bottom of the white arc. After crossing the obstacle, I pitched up. The sink rate increased rapidly. When I got about 10 feet off the ground, I pitched down to arrest the descent then felt the ground effect bubble and flared. We touched down rather smoothly and made the turnoff.

He told me to never do that again! He was braced for the crash as soon as I pitched up. I told him I was using reversed pitch behind the power curve. He swears I stalled it and recovered just before the crash. 
 

Either way I landed over an obstacle and turned off in 300 feet.

Don't ask me to do it again, I’m too old for that stuff now. That was 35 years ago.

[N201MKTurbo]

Also, having your idle speed set as low as it will possibly go without dying on rollout makes a huge difference in your short field landings, probably more than your technique.

[midlifeflyer]

On 10/21/2022 at 11:14 AM, donkaye said:

I really recommend the latest LHS 200-C.  While the 100 was very good, the 200-C is even better.

Another excuse not to look out the window?

[KLRDMD]

20 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

Another excuse not to look out the window?

Just the opposite. The aural callouts allow you to not look inside the cockpit at all and focus all of your attention outside the airplane.

I had a -100 in my 310 and am having the -200 installed in my Bonanza next week.

[Parker_Woodruff]

2 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

Just the opposite. The aural callouts allow you to not look inside the cockpit at all and focus all of your attention outside the airplane.

I had a -100 in my 310 and am having the -200 installed in my Bonanza next week.

Agreed - as opposed to what I think is a real concern which is looking inside the plane at an AOA indicator.

[donkaye]

5 hours ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

Agreed - as opposed to what I think is a real concern which is looking inside the plane at an AOA indicator.

Which is why the Alpha Systems Eagle Heads Up display is so valuable.  When combined with the Microkit LHS 200 System (OK, and my Landing Video, too), you have to work pretty hard not to make very good landings every time.

[DonMuncy]

11 minutes ago, donkaye said:

Which is why the Alpha Systems Eagle Heads Up display is so valuable.  When combined with the Microkits LHS 200 System (OK, and my Landing Video, too), you have to work pretty hard not to make very good landings every time.

You would be surprised how easy it is for me. 

[donkaye]

On 10/21/2022 at 8:33 AM, Parker_Woodruff said:

Any chance you've been able to overlay the audio on some updated landing videos?

Microkit already has several videos out showing the altitude countdown with their unit.

[Pinecone]

1 hour ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

Agreed - as opposed to what I think is a real concern which is looking inside the plane at an AOA indicator.

AGREED.

I have an Aspen 1000 that has the AOA upgrade (bought it that way).  I have NO idea what the AOA thing is saying, as I don't want to do that heads down.

AOA needs to be above the glare shield to be really useful, IMO.

[Pinecone]

1 hour ago, donkaye said:

Which is why the Alpha Systems Eagle Heads Up display is so valuable.  When combined with the Microkits LHS 200 System (OK, and my Landing Video, too), you have to work pretty hard not to make very good landings every time.

Alpha AOA is on my wish list.

[Pinecone]

53 minutes ago, donkaye said:

Microkit already has several videos out showing the altitude countdown with their unit.

I think he wants to see what it looks like at each callout in your plane, landing the way you teach.

[midlifeflyer]

4 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

Just the opposite. The aural callouts allow you to not look inside the cockpit at all and focus all of your attention outside the airplane.

I had a -100 in my 310 and am having the -200 installed in my Bonanza next week.

LOL. On a flight review I'd probably turn it off the same time I covered the airspeed indicator.

[JimB]

All good information however, I will add the following counter points. When I bought my Mooney I went here https://themooneyflyer.com/cfi.html and found a "Mooney CFI" and it was by far the worst experience I have ever had with a supposed aviation professional. It wouldn't be right to get in to the details but he was a real d!(k. I ended up finding another CFI in northern Indiana with access to a Mooney M20F and had a great experience, learned a lot and was very happy and comfortable in the aircraft afterwards. 

Also I have seen some really bad mistakes, missing obvious records and generally shoddy maintenance come out of some very well known Mooney Service Centers. And I have seen some meticulous maintenance, beautiful avionics installations and great repairs come out of the hangar after a local A&P or IA has completed them. If you actually think about it, the only thing that is unique to a Mooney is the airframes which really just means the gear and the flight controls. The rest (and the most expensive parts!) are the Lycoming or Continental engine and the avionics which are the same as any GA aircraft. 

Chances are good that if you seek one of these professionals out you are going to get great instruction or service but you don't always get what you pay for either so just keep that in mind. And Mooneys are just great airplanes, they aren't a Rolls Royce....but I drive a Ford so what do I know?!?! 

[Fly Boomer]

1 hour ago, JimB said:

All good information however, I will add the following counter points. When I bought my Mooney I went here https://themooneyflyer.com/cfi.html and found a "Mooney CFI" and it was by far the worst experience I have ever had with a supposed aviation professional. It wouldn't be right to get in to the details but he was a real d!(k. I ended up finding another CFI in northern Indiana with access to a Mooney M20F and had a great experience, learned a lot and was very happy and comfortable in the aircraft afterwards. 

Also I have seen some really bad mistakes, missing obvious records and generally shoddy maintenance come out of some very well known Mooney Service Centers. And I have seen some meticulous maintenance, beautiful avionics installations and great repairs come out of the hangar after a local A&P or IA has completed them. If you actually think about it, the only thing that is unique to a Mooney is the airframes which really just means the gear and the flight controls. The rest (and the most expensive parts!) are the Lycoming or Continental engine and the avionics which are the same as any GA aircraft. 

Chances are good that if you seek one of these professionals out you are going to get great instruction or service but you don't always get what you pay for either so just keep that in mind. And Mooneys are just great airplanes, they aren't a Rolls Royce....but I drive a Ford so what do I know?!?! 

After some less than happy experiences with "the best", I have come to realize that it's not the name on the door, it's the name of the person who lays hands on the airplane.  The best shop can have bad people, and the best mechanic can work for a bad shop.

[T. Peterson]

On 10/23/2022 at 8:03 AM, Shadrach said:

Personally I prefer not to use power when gravity and drag will do.  I prefer steep, power off approaches for short field landing but the plane must be slowed beyond the comfort level of most pilots and then pitched to stay behind the drag curve in descent. Done at max performance, all or nearly all of the elevator is used in the flare.
 

It is definitely easier to drag it in behind the power curve as long as the engine cooperates. 

I like easy!

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, T. Peterson said:

I like easy!

Easy yes, most prudent? Not always. Reviewing my own GoPro footage made it clear to me just how slim my margins were going into one of my favorite local fields. Screenshot does not really show how close the trees are but I would estimate that on this approach I was <10' off the tops. 

The trees keep growing. The surrounding property owners don't like to cut them. The FAA compromised by moving the displaced threshold.  So the 1810'X 30' strip has 1510' available with DT.  Seeing just how unforgiving the terrain is to an aircraft that comes up short, I avoid the drag it in over the trees approach.

 

 

Landing the other direction allows for a shallow approach but the cross road necessitates a displaced threshold and the runway runs steeply downhill. Then that nasty approach terrain becomes departure terrain for those that don't have good airspeed discipline.

[T. Peterson]

43 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Easy yes, most prudent? Not always. Reviewing my own GoPro footage made it clear to me just how slim my margins were going into one of my favorite local fields. Screenshot does not really show how close the trees are but I would estimate that on this approach I was <10' off the tops. 

The trees keep growing. The surrounding property owners don't like to cut them. The FAA compromised by moving the displaced threshold.  So the 1810'X 30' strip has 1510' available with DT.  Seeing just how unforgiving the terrain is to an aircraft that comes up short, I avoid the drag it in over the trees approach.

 

 

Landing the other direction allows for a shallow approach but the cross road necessitates a displaced threshold and the runway runs steeply downhill. Then that nasty approach terrain becomes departure terrain for those that don't have good airspeed discipline.

Wow!! Udda  man!  At my Mooney experience level I am not even contemplating landing on a strip like that. Looks like at least one other Mooney fella shouldn’t have either!

 Thanks for the pictures!

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, T. Peterson said:

Wow!! Udda  man!  At my Mooney experience level I am not even contemplating landing on a strip like that. Looks like at least one other Mooney fella shouldn’t have either!

 Thanks for the pictures!

The motivation to land there is the excellent pilot shop and gas that is typically .30-.50 cents less than my field.  It’s like a small neighborhood hardware store but all aviation stuff. Tires, tubes, plugs, oil, batteries, fasteners etc. etc. Surprisingly they never ran out of filters during the pandemic. It’s been there 40+ years, but I expect it’s the twilight of its existence.

[T. Peterson]

5 hours ago, Shadrach said:

The motivation to land there is the excellent pilot shop and gas that is typically .30-.50 cents less than my field.  It’s like a small neighborhood hardware store but all aviation stuff. Tires, tubes, plugs, oil, batteries, fasteners etc. etc. Surprisingly they never ran out of filters during the pandemic. It’s been there 40+ years, but I expect it’s the twilight of its existence.

That’s powerful motivation! Hopefully they won’t go away. I would love to go there, but if I do it will be as your passenger!