Electrical failure - that was fun...

[bcg]

As some of you know, I bought my 1963 C model to finish my PPL and IFR ratings in.  Tonight we went and took care of the night time requirements and flew from KERV to KAUS where we did a couple of landings, then to KHYI to get in another 7, since KAUS was pretty busy this evening.  On the way back to KERV, we noticed that the voltage meter started dropping.  It had never really gotten above 12V this flight which is unusual but, I attributed it to more lights being on and spending a lot of time at lower RPM for landings and taxi backs and not giving the generator enough time to recharge the battery.  We flew over downtown San Antonio on the way home to sight see and lost the transponder and comms  just past downtown so, we shut down everything non-essential, which got our comms back, and headed straight back to KERV where I did my 10th landing with no landing light, not the worst thing in the world but something I hope to not ever have to repeat.  The ammeter didn't really behave abnormally.  In the 38 hours I've flown it, it always barely reads above 1 and has always had a tendency to bounce up and back down with some regularity.

Based on the behavior of the ammeter though, I'm going to guess that the most likely culprit is the voltage regulator and not the generator.  I keep the plane on a tie down right in front of Dugosh while waiting for hangar space to open up so I'll stop by there in the morning and have a chat with David to see what he thinks.  Anyone else had a similar experience?  If so, what did it turn out to be in your case?

[carusoam]

Everybody experiences this at least once…

1) what generator/alternator do you have?

2) what voltage regulator do you have? Sticks and stones and springs or Zeftronics?

3) What setting did you use when you torqued the belt last?  Tight by hand, may not be tight enough…

4) What is the health of your field wire?  This one is often failed by vibration, it gets weak first giving odd results….

5) Have you checked to see what the brushes look like?  Do you know what these look like, not very brush like…

 

Some manufacturers have a great troubleshooting guide for their alternators…

Keep in mind… when you have an electrical problem in flight… it might be more than a loss of electrons being generated… it might be electrons generated going to the wrong place… a fire can happen…

It may be better to land, and find out where the electrons are going, or if they are not being generated…

PP thoughts only… not a mechanic…  my M20C melted all of the solder off its generator’s internal wires… while I was flying on for hours… (not recommended)

Best regards,

-a-

[AIREMATT]

Sounds like the generator needs an overhaul or replace it with an alternator. Had the same problem with mine first time at night after I got it doing several landings and taxiing back. Doesn’t charge the battery much at low rpm on taxi or in the pattern. 
I put in a plane power alternator 8 years ago after trying a new VR with no improvement. Love the Alternator conversion at low rpm on the ground and in the pattern. And knock on wood, it’s still going strong.

[AIREMATT]

2 hours ago, carusoam said:

PP thoughts only… not a mechanic…  my M20C melted all of the solder off its generator’s internal wires… while I was flying on for hours… (not recommended)

Best regards,

-a-

Definitely not recommended:)

[Greg Ellis]

I know there are some that say a generator is fine and works good but if I were you, and going through the trouble of diagnosing and tracking this problem down, I would convert the generator to an alternator and a new voltage regulator that comes with the kit as well and don't look back.  I did this after my second generator failure at night, much like what happened to you.  I didn't learn from the first failure....had to try it twice. 

I did the Plane power alternator conversion and have been very happy with this ever since (about 10 years now).  A check with Aircraft Spruce has the conversion kit running around $1325 for the Lycoming engine (Plane Power SAL 12-70).  Not bad price for the peace of mind it has given me.

[LANCECASPER]

6 hours ago, bcg said:

As some of you know, I bought my 1963 C model to finish my PPL and IFR ratings in.  Tonight we went and took care of the night time requirements and flew from KERV to KAUS where we did a couple of landings, then to KHYI to get in another 7, since KAUS was pretty busy this evening.  On the way back to KERV, we noticed that the voltage meter started dropping.  It had never really gotten above 12V this flight which is unusual but, I attributed it to more lights being on and spending a lot of time at lower RPM for landings and taxi backs and not giving the generator enough time to recharge the battery.  We flew over downtown San Antonio on the way home to sight see and lost the transponder and comms  just past downtown so, we shut down everything non-essential, which got our comms back, and headed straight back to KERV where I did my 10th landing with no landing light, not the worst thing in the world but something I hope to not ever have to repeat.  The ammeter didn't really behave abnormally.  In the 38 hours I've flown it, it always barely reads above 1 and has always had a tendency to bounce up and back down with some regularity.

Based on the behavior of the ammeter though, I'm going to guess that the most likely culprit is the voltage regulator and not the generator.  I keep the plane on a tie down right in front of Dugosh while waiting for hangar space to open up so I'll stop by there in the morning and have a chat with David to see what he thinks.  Anyone else had a similar experience?  If so, what did it turn out to be in your case?

Night time flight is akin to IFR - no clear horizon out there and in a single engine airplane even more demanding in an emergency - finding a spot to land if you lose power. Glad everything worked out for you. Here's three ideas for you:

The electrical design on your C was just barely adequate at its best. Great opportunity to go through the electrical with a fine tooth comb and get the most electrical capacity. I agree with @AIREMATT and @Greg Ellis about getting an alternator in  it.

Also how old is the battery and does it pass a capacity check? If it doesn't pass here's the one to get: https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/rg_35axc.php?clickkey=19151. It has an extra 4 amp hours more than the standard battery (33 vs 29) and could make the difference in what you experienced last night of whether you have a landing light or a com or not when you need it the most. 

You probably have one incandescent PAR46 landing light in your C which is a power hog. Get an LED PAR46 which draws very few amps. Contact me via PM for an inexpensive alternative. Thankfully KERV has good airport lighting but in an emergency off-airport landing it would be nice to have a bright light out there in those last few seconds. 

Good job getting it down safely!!

 

[Hank]

I've landed at night twice without a landing light, both times in was burned out. First time was in IFR training before LEDs were common, and I was wearing my prescription sunglasses (better than nothing). The second time my light worked during preflight and departure, but 3 hours later turning base I couldn't see the ridgeline I knew was nearby. So now I have LED and love it, its always on.

[Shadrach]

 

I am still running the 50Amp Delco Remy Gen. Since upgrading to a Zeftronics solid state VR and a Concorde RG35 battery, the charging system has been nearly bullet proof.  Even with everything on, my system is typically charging by 1050 -1100rpm depending on OAT.  If it's cold, it's closer to 1250-1300.  I don't feel like I need more. The only reason I'd switch to an Alternator is for the weight savings.  

I actually used to prefer landing without a landing light during my ppl training in the C150.  We lost the light one night which alarmed me.  My instructor told me it was not required equipment and that I'd be just fine without it.  He was correct.  I got in the habit of practicing landing without the light, then without the ASI. Then without the ASI and the light.  It helped build a lot of confidence regarding night flight.  Not sure, I'd still feel that way with 48 year old eyes...I should give it a whirl. Modern HID and LED landing lights all but eliminate the odds of losing the landing light.  With incandescents it was just a question of when...  

 

[bcg]

I went and talked with the AP this morning, he says it sounds like generator failure.  We checked the belt and he said it could be a little tighter but, it wasn't bad.  The battery is brand new, I replaced it with the starter about a month ago.

I'm going to go back in the morning to pull the battery to recharge it and adjust the tension on the belt.  I'll also check the cables and connections to make sure corrosion isn't an issue and then we'll see what sort of output we get from the generator.

I'm kind of leaning towards just replacing the generator with an alternator anyway, it would be a lot more convenient.

[bcg]

26 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

 

I am still running the 50Amp Delco Remy Gen. Since upgrading to a Zeftronics solid state VR and a Concorde RG35 battery, the charging system has been nearly bullet proof.  Even with everything on, my system is typically charging by 1050 -1100rpm depending on OAT.  If it's cold, it's closer to 1250-1300.  I don't feel like I need more. The only reason I'd switch to an Alternator is for the weight savings.  I 

I actually used to prefer landing with out a landing light during my ppl training in the C150.  We lost the light one night which alarmed me.  My instructor told me it was not required equipment and that I'd be just fine without it.  He was correct.  I got in the habit of practicing landing without the light, then without the ASI. Then without the ASI and the light.  It helped build a lot of confidence regarding night flight.  Not sure, I'd still feel that way with 48 year old eyes...I should give it a whirl. Modern HID and LED landing lights all but eliminate the odds of losing the landing light.  With incandescents it was just a question of when...  

 

If there was some moonlight, it wouldn't have been bad.  It was wicked dark last night though, I couldn't see anything other than the marker lights.

I do already have an LED landing light and it's super bright...when I have power.

[bcg]

4 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

Night time flight is akin to IFR - no clear horizon out there and in a single engine airplane even more demanding in an emergency - finding a spot to land if you lose power. Glad everything worked out for you. Here's three ideas for you:

The electrical design on your C was just barely adequate at its best. Great opportunity to go through the electrical with a fine tooth comb and get the most electrical capacity. I agree with @AIREMATT and @Greg Ellis about getting an alternator in  it.

Also how old is the battery and does it pass a capacity check? If it doesn't pass here's the one to get: https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/rg_35axc.php?clickkey=19151. It has an extra 4 amp hours more than the standard battery (33 vs 29) and could make the difference in what you experienced last night of whether you have a landing light or a com or not when you need it the most. 

You probably have one incandescent PAR46 landing light in your C which is a power hog. Get an LED PAR46 which draws very few amps. Contact me via PM for an inexpensive alternative. Thankfully KERV has good airport lighting but in an emergency off-airport landing it would be nice to have a bright light out there in those last few seconds. 

Good job getting it down safely!!

 

I honestly think night flying over rural areas is IFR, especially if there is any terrain.  Over San Antonio or Austin with all the lights and mostly flat, it's not as bad.

The battery was replaced about a month ago when I did the starter and the landing light is already an LED.

KERV didn't feel very well lit without any moon last night.  It was a Navy landing but, we hit mains first and nothing broke so I'm going to call it good.

I'm going to have to hop over to T82 one of these days and say hello.  Maybe we can grab lunch one day.

[LANCECASPER]

41 minutes ago, bcg said:

I'm going to have to hop over to T82 one of these days and say hello.  Maybe we can grab lunch one day.

Sounds good. I'm at TS36, but I'd be glad to meet you at T82 for lunch. The Airport Diner is open Thurs - Sun. Thurs or Fri is easier for me.

Also one reason I carry a handheld radio is so that I can use the pilot controlled airport lighting if I have a com or an electrical failure.

[Hank]

1 hour ago, bcg said:

If there was some moonlight, it wouldn't have been bad.  It was wicked dark last night though, I couldn't see anything other than the marker lights.

I do already have an LED landing light and it's super bright...when I have power.

Be very glad! When my power crapped out, I had just broken out the bottom of the clouds and passed over the VOR inbound on approach, in WV. When everything electrical quit working, I leveled off, finished hand-cranking the gear down, was thankful to have Takeoff Flaps down [also electric and therefore non-operational now], handed my Owners Manual to the CFII and flew home along the river in case anything else took a dump, because the river was the only flat ground. Flying at gear down speed, it was ~25 minutes home . . . . Did I mention that ATC had just told me that i was off their radar, cleared for the option and to call back on the miss? I couldn't do any of that . . . .

Fun times! You just have to be ready. This was when I learned that my handheld radio wasn't just for trips! [Yes, it was in the hangar. Could have used it!]

Nice recovery, and congratulations on the great landing! I am supposing, because you didn't mention anything, that the airplane is reusable.

[bcg]

Sounds good. I'm at TS36, but I'd be glad to meet you at T82 for lunch. The Airport Diner is open Thurs - Sun. Thurs or Fri is easier for me.
Also one reason I carry a handheld radio is so that I can use the pilot controlled airport lighting if I have a com or an electrical failure.

I do have a handheld, one of the Yausea (I know that's spelled wrong) with GPS, VOR and ILS built in... thankfully we didn't need it.

Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk

[bcg]

Be very glad! When my power crapped out, I had just broken out the bottom of the clouds and passed over the VOR inbound on approach, in WV. When everything electrical quit working, I leveled off, finished hand-cranking the gear down, was thankful to have Takeoff Flaps down [also electric and therefore non-operational now], handed my Owners Manual to the CFII and flew home along the river in case anything else took a dump, because the river was the only flat ground. Flying at gear down speed, it was ~25 minutes home . . . . Did I mention that ATC had just told me that i was off their radar, cleared for the option and to call back on the miss? I couldn't do any of that . . . .
Fun times! You just have to be ready. This was when I learned that my handheld radio wasn't just for trips! [Yes, it was in the hangar. Could have used it!]
Nice recovery, and congratulations on the great landing! I am supposing, because you didn't mention anything, that the airplane is reusable.

Thanks, I was happy with the landing. We walked away and the plane is reusable, all anyone can ask for.

Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk

[Eight8Victor]

I lost my alternator over lake Okeechobee at night after flying a couple of  EMT’s to FXE from OCF. They were headed to the Bahamas to help after hurricane Dorian. I was vfr with flight following. When I reached 9 volts I told ATC that I needed to shut down power and decided to land at Lakeland. My stec 50 held altitude but I had to chase the heading bug and used Foreflight on my ipad for heading. LAL was busy with lots of traffic and I was not familiar with the field so I felt it was best to carry on to Ocala since I knew it like the back of my hand. Turned on comms at 10 miles out, announced my position since tower was closed hand just enough juice for the gear and landed without a landing light. It was uncomfortable but the airplane was flying fine, the weather was good and I wasn't far from where I felt most comfortable. 
 

The alternator and battery were replaced. I have since replaced all lights with l.e.d. A handheld radio would be a nice tool to have as well, any recommendations? 
 

I lost my vacuum pump at night twice in two different airplanes. Losing my AI was a little creepier than losing power.

[bcg]

I lost my alternator over lake Okeechobee at night after flying a couple of  EMT’s to FXE from OCF. They were headed to the Bahamas to help after hurricane Dorian. I was vfr with flight following. When I reached 9 volts I told ATC that I needed to shut down power and decided to land at Lakeland. My stec 50 held altitude but I had to chase the heading bug and used Foreflight on my ipad for heading. LAL was busy with lots of traffic and I was not familiar with the field so I felt it was best to carry on to Ocala since I knew it like the back of my hand. Turned on comms at 10 miles out, announced my position since tower was closed hand just enough juice for the gear and landed without a landing light. It was uncomfortable but the airplane was flying fine, the weather was good and I wasn't far from where I felt most comfortable. 
 
The alternator and battery were replaced. I have since replaced all lights with l.e.d. A handheld radio would be a nice tool to have as well, any recommendations? 
 
I lost my vacuum pump at night twice in two different airplanes. Losing my AI was a little creepier than losing power.

I have this one, for the price it has a lot of features and *should* get me safely back to the ground even in hard IMC, as long as the airport has a localizer.

Yaesu FTA-850L Color Bluetooth NAV/COM Aviation Transceiver https://a.co/d/3IPXLH9

Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk

[Fly Boomer]

8 hours ago, Shadrach said:

I actually used to prefer landing with out a landing light during my ppl training in the C150

Me too.  Someone posted that they had to land at night twice without landing lights.  I have probably landed hundreds of times without the landing light on.  Early days, I had low-cost access to a 150, and most of my flying was after I got away from work. at night.  It always seemed to me that I could see the whole picture without the light, vs one spot with the light.  That was then, and this is now.  These days, my night vision is not as good as it was.

[A64Pilot]

13 hours ago, Eight8Victor said:

The alternator and battery were replaced. I have since replaced all lights with l.e.d. A handheld radio would be a nice tool to have as well, any recommendations? 
 

A hand held to be effective really needs an installed adapter plug so that it can plug into the aircraft installed antenna, it’s seems it’s adapter reduces regular radio performance some. The little rubber antenna inside of the metal cockpit really cuts down on performance.

I have found in all honesty a cell phone connected to the headset to be a better plan. I did a whole lot of flying new aircraft with temp installed ferry radio packs and losing comms wasn’t common, but not rare either. Phone of course can’t make CTAF calls.

The best hand held I had was believe it or not but the inexpensive Sporty’s one that used AA flashlight batteries. Larger and heavier but transmitted better.

But an alternator fail light and a good capacity tested battery is probably best.

[bcg]

I managed to order the wrong alternator kit, I ordered the SAL12-70C instead of the SAL12-70.  I kept wondering why the bracket wouldn't work and then realized the mistake.  Got a return authorization and ordered the correct part for delivery on Monday.

Getting the generator out wasn't a horrible job but, it wasn't completely trivial either.

[Ragsf15e]

22 hours ago, bcg said:

I have this one, for the price it has a lot of features and *should* get me safely back to the ground even in hard IMC, as long as the airport has a localizer.

Yaesu FTA-850L Color Bluetooth NAV/COM Aviation Transceiver https://a.co/d/3IPXLH9

Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk
 

I have an older version.  The rechargeable batteries lose power quickly when transmitting and don’t hold a charge well.  Bring AA backup if you want a chance for it to work.

[bcg]

Working on planes is fun...

First I ordered the wrong kit.  OK, that's on me.  I get the correct one but, it's missing the voltage regulator, that's on Aircraft Spruce.  They're overnighting the regulator, I figured I'd get everything else ready and of course, the bolt for the bracket behind the prop broke off.  Soooooo....we pulled the prop, extracted the bolt, drilled and tapped the hole, installed a helicoil and 4 hours later, I was back to where I was before the bolt broke.  Oh well, at least now I can replace the belt...lol