How much sense does it make to own a vintage M20E ?

[CarlosRF]

Sorry for the long post, but I think some of the more experienced members of this awesome group can help me.

I am not a Mooney owner or pilot, but I have long been a Mooney fan since I earned my CPL back in 1980, and especially more so after flying an Acclaim a couple of times some 10 years ago. We own a turbo Arrow IV in the family since 2006, which is a plane that has different pros & cons from Mooneys. So aircraft ownership background is not a problem.

We are thinking of a second airplane and the question is “how much a vintage M20E would really make sense” (although planes don’t make sense, I know). Some of my doubts are:

1. What are the differences for each year, considering corrosion, improvements, performance, etc.

2. When was the square window introduced ?

3. What real world performance is to be expected: TAS x FF x RMP x FL x range ?

4. I’ve seen vintage round window M20Es with lots of speed mods, almost looking like short body M20Js. What real difference does this make performance wise ? (we have all the speed mods in the turbo Arrow, so we know they do not add that much speed as advertised…).

5. There are different panel layouts, some have been upgraded, so for a newbie it is somewhat hard to know when the original panel layout has been changed in the production line. Some have throttle quadrants, other have vernier controls, but what year had what version under what ownership ?

6. I understand there are some model years that are better than others, e.g. not having flush rivets anymore, integral belly, or having poorer corrosion protection, but I cannot find out which years and which years should be avoided.

7. What has to be avoided, and what maintenance problems are chronical (tank sealing surely seems to be one of them) ?

8. Is it legal to remove the back seats and how easy is this ? The idea is to carry bikes, and the plane will be used for 2 POB most of the time (and after all, the rear leg room in the short bodies is very limited).

[Ragsf15e]

Obviously depends on what you want it for, but I suspect the performance and capabilities are similar enough to the Arrow that it doesn’t add anything except lots of new costs?  What are you trying to get out of it?

Its a solid 145-155ktas performer.  8-11 gph depending on your mood.  Normally aspirated, so mostly cruise below about 12,500’ however you can definitely get it into the mid teens.  2 adults, although an adult or kids can fit in back but it’s a little tight.  Pretty good range and load for 2 people.  Not expensive to maintain as long as you get a thorough prebuy to ensure no corrosion.  Keep it hangared like anything else.  

[Ragsf15e]

Avionics and upgrades are up to you, but no bad ADs.  You can get a gfc 500 and g3x or just leave it vintage.  Engine is solid (io360a1a) and there are a few relatively minor things you can get- gami injectors, surefly mag, alternator vs generator, etc, but nothing serious.  Turbo normalizer stcs exist but are no longer being sold (but may be supported).

[TheAv8r]

1 hour ago, CarlosRF said:

Sorry for the long post, but I think some of the more experienced members of this awesome group can help me.

I am not a Mooney owner or pilot, but I have long been a Mooney fan since I earned my CPL back in 1980, and especially more so after flying an Acclaim a couple of times some 10 years ago. We own a turbo Arrow IV in the family since 2006, which is a plane that has different pros & cons from Mooneys. So aircraft ownership background is not a problem.

We are thinking of a second airplane and the question is “how much a vintage M20E would really make sense” (although planes don’t make sense, I know). Some of my doubts are:

1. What are the differences for each year, considering corrosion, improvements, performance, etc.

2. When was the square window introduced ?

3. What real world performance is to be expected: TAS x FF x RMP x FL x range ?

4. I’ve seen vintage round window M20Es with lots of speed mods, almost looking like short body M20Js. What real difference does this make performance wise ? (we have all the speed mods in the turbo Arrow, so we know they do not add that much speed as advertised…).

5. There are different panel layouts, some have been upgraded, so for a newbie it is somewhat hard to know when the original panel layout has been changed in the production line. Some have throttle quadrants, other have vernier controls, but what year had what version under what ownership ?

6. I understand there are some model years that are better than others, e.g. not having flush rivets anymore, integral belly, or having poorer corrosion protection, but I cannot find out which years and which years should be avoided.

7. What has to be avoided, and what maintenance problems are chronical (tank sealing surely seems to be one of them) ?

8. Is it legal to remove the back seats and how easy is this ? The idea is to carry bikes, and the plane will be used for 2 POB most of the time (and after all, the rear leg room in the short bodies is very limited).

Welcome Carlos. Great questions. I own a 1965 M20E, it makes sense for my wife & I as we love to travel and do long trips just the 2 of us and it's an awesome fit for that. To your questions, here's at least as far as I know:

2. When was the square window introduced ? 1965. 

3. What real world performance is to be expected: TAS x FF x RMP x FL x range ? TAS in mine is 150 knots true all day long, often will do 152 kts TAS. 10gph. I'll know more when I pick my plane up this week with the new JPI 930 installed. 52 gallon tanks, so 5 hours of fuel x 150 knots = 750nm range technically, without reserve. Mooneys have "speed mods" you can add to make them more aerodynamically efficient. The only one I have is the LASAR bottom cowling mod. I also have the 1-piece windshield, not the 201, which is supposed to be negligible speed wise. 

4. I’ve seen vintage round window M20Es with lots of speed mods, almost looking like short body M20Js. What real difference does this make performance wise ? (we have all the speed mods in the turbo Arrow, so we know they do not add that much speed as advertised…). The 201 windshield is the one I've seen most people claim adding 2-3 knots. I've talked with 1 owner who had a heavily modified E, the 201 windshield, flap gap seals, the dorsal fin speed mod, 1 piece belly, a LoPresti cowling mod, and he saw around 160kts true in his E, which is a 10kt difference, but most owners I've talked to rarely get over 155kts true no matter what mods are added. I'll let someone else with more mods on their bird chime in.

5. There are different panel layouts, some have been upgraded, so for a newbie it is somewhat hard to know when the original panel layout has been changed in the production line. Some have throttle quadrants, other have vernier controls, but what year had what version under what ownership ? Not sure exactly when it changed, but most of the mid-60s models had the push/pull controls. I think the panel layouts and quadrants were introduced in the early 70s ('71 I want to say). I much prefer the mid-60s layout.

7. What has to be avoided, and what maintenance problems are chronical (tank sealing surely seems to be one of them) ? As far as avoided, not too much. The main thing I'd keep in mind is ground clearance, be careful taking a Mooney to a grass field, especially one that's now as well maintained, the risk of prop strike is higher. I don't think there are a whole lot of Mooney-specific MX problems for the vintage Es. There are only 3 or 4 recurring ADs. There are leaking tanks, which happens with any low wing, the donuts on the landing gear need to be replaced every so often (5-10 years usually if not longer), lubrication is important, of the rod end bearings (100hr AD for this), and the fuel tank caps. Of the 2 Mooneys I've owned, nothing stands out as chronic MX problems unique to a Mooney. EDIT: I will say this, not really a problem, but something to keep in mind, Mooneys are TIGHT. They are harder to work on because there's very little clearance to get to things. It makes simple/routine MX more difficult. Sometimes you have to take other things apart just to get to something.

8. Is it legal to remove the back seats and how easy is this ? The idea is to carry bikes, and the plane will be used for 2 POB most of the time (and after all, the rear leg room in the short bodies is very limited). Absolutely legal. They're a pain in the butt to remove in my opinion but once they're out, they're out. You are correct on the leg room issue.

Edited September 28, 2022 by TheAv8r

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, CarlosRF said:

8. Is it legal to remove the back seats and how easy is this ? The idea is to carry bikes, and the plane will be used for 2 POB most of the time (and after all, the rear leg room in the short bodies is very limited).

It is legal to remove the back seats, but you'll need a new (or separate) W&B document in the airplane for the configuration with the seats removed.

[KSMooniac]

The replies so far are a good start.  I'll add that some of the aftermarket autopilots might not reach all the way back to 1964 Mooneys (E or C) so if that is important to you, do some research first.  I don't think there is a difference in corrosion protection amongst any of the vintage planes.  Electric gear became standard in 68 or 69, I think, although some earlier models might have been converted.  I'd rather have a johnson bar!  Any of the panels can be modernized, and a quasi-standard 6-pack layout (although canted) became standard in perhaps 69 or 70?  Focus on the major show-stoppers first and not necessarily what year, and buy the best one you can afford.  Look for damage, corrosion, neglect, regular use, etc.  There are tons of threads here related to buying a Mooney.

A heavily modified E can be faster than a J with enough effort and dollars since it is shorter and lighter, although it will cost a lot in time/labor or money, or both.  The J windscreen and cowl would be the biggest improvements, followed by the rest of the airframe niceties.  Removing old antennas and rigging it well would be more economical.  With the back seat out and a flat floor filler panel, you'll have a nice 2-human XC machine.  We carried 2 full-size gravel bikes with 29" wheels and a dog across the country in my J, but it has 10" more fuselage length behind the front seats.  You should be able to do similar in an E, maybe without a dog.

I too question why you would want to add an E to a Turbo Arrow family?  Would you consider just trading up to a 231, or even better, a 252 or Encore?  You'll go much faster than the Arrow, and likely at a lower cost per mile or hour.  Plus you'd look cooler flying a Mooney instead of a Piper!  Is the E a backup plane, or something less expensive to train in?  My second plane will be a fun something with almost no practical value aside from the joy of flight.    Taildragger, acro, etc.

[201er]

Get rid of the Arrow and get a J or a K and you’ll accomplish everything you want and then some.

[carusoam]

Skip the logic…

Go right to the pics…

The M20E makes a great forever-plane for a couple that likes to travel…

Or four adults that like tight quarters….

@Bob_Belville put a bunch of effort into his plane to make it better than new…

Bob’s plane looked brand new when parked next to other brand new planes from the factory…

Why a second plane?

Go Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-

[gmonnig]

I have a 65' E. It's a great "couple plane". My wife and I are empty nesters now and ended up with an E model after selling our beloved Comanche 250. My plan when the Comanche sold in April was to buy a Cessna 310 (deice boots, hot props etc etc) but that deal fell through due to insurance requirements.  I felt gutted since I had given up the 250. I ended up having this beautiful "E" come up (not advertised). It was a great decision to skip the twin Cessna and go with Mooney. I never felt the fuel price increase since it burns 4gph less than the Comanche and 14gph less than the 310. I do 150kts on 10-11gph, have the fold down rear seats (which are always folded), 4hrs range with reserves, and it's a great IFR platform. 

I do think it's a weird move to own both Turbo Arrow and an E Mooney though. Why now sell the Arrow and get a 231 with the engine you are already familiar with, TSIO-360?

[M20F]

13 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

Obviously depends on what you want it for

The most important question.  

[CarlosRF]

Thanks for the answers, very helpful so far !

I probably forgot to better explain myself: I personally love the turbo Arrow, it is a very capable machine, although slower than a M20K, but in Brazil it makes much more sense to own a Piper than a Mooney due to resale value and supply x demand issues - and also for the MX shops available. Unfortunately Mooneys are not popular in Brazil, and finding a reliable shop is another problem. Would not trade the tA4 for a 231, I know the turbo Arrows from inside out by now, but:

The second airplane would be for my son, we live some 500NM apart, and he doesn't fly that much anymore because the turbo Arrow stays with me.

I believe a vintage M20E would be a simple & economic, yet fun and capable machine for 2 POB and maybe some bikes with the rear seat removed.

One more question: where can I get a PDF copy of "The Backwards Tales" by Coy Jacob ?

[MB65E]

Zero sense. Most efficient 4 place airplane. Wish it was new. 
but I love mine.

-Matt

 

[Ragsf15e]

19 hours ago, CarlosRF said:

Thanks for the answers, very helpful so far !

I probably forgot to better explain myself: I personally love the turbo Arrow, it is a very capable machine, although slower than a M20K, but in Brazil it makes much more sense to own a Piper than a Mooney due to resale value and supply x demand issues - and also for the MX shops available. Unfortunately Mooneys are not popular in Brazil, and finding a reliable shop is another problem. Would not trade the tA4 for a 231, I know the turbo Arrows from inside out by now, but:

The second airplane would be for my son, we live some 500NM apart, and he doesn't fly that much anymore because the turbo Arrow stays with me.

I believe a vintage M20E would be a simple & economic, yet fun and capable machine for 2 POB and maybe some bikes with the rear seat removed.

One more question: where can I get a PDF copy of "The Backwards Tales" by Coy Jacob ?

You will need a mechanic who has mooney experience or is willing to read through the old maintenance manuals carefully and/or ask questions here.  It’s not rocket science, but a few things are best done with experience (gear rigging, hydraulic flap maintenance, rigging).  Parts are generally available but new from the factory is getting tough.  The engine is readily accessible, maintainable and supported.  Simplicity of an older E makes it pretty reliable and efficient.  You will however need the right mechanic…

[TomM20F]

You have lots of good comments from many more experienced than me. The one thing I would add is if bicycles are part of a typical mission, it is not easy to get 2 folding mountain bikes in and out of a Mooney. possible but not easy and may involve removing wheels. Done it enough that I only do it now if not able to rent bikes (if that is our mission - do some biking) or no uber availble and at a isolated GA field. Clown bikes no problem. But unless you are looking at an A36 Beechcraft with those big doors all the low wing complex are bicycle challenged.

[M20F]

On 9/29/2022 at 6:35 PM, CarlosRF said:

Brazil it makes much more sense to own a Piper than a Mooney due to resale value and supply x demand issues - and also for the MX shops available. Unfortunately Mooneys are not popular in Brazil, and finding a reliable shop is another problem.

I think you answered your own question.