Product idea for Mooney International

[John Mininger]

Here’s a product idea for Mooney International.

Develop an upgrade starting with the J and F, and maybe the E. It would start with a Lycoming IO-390 and would incorporate a new cowling with a cold-air induction system. It would also have a gate valve style ram air system like the Lopresti cowling. And unless you already have a Hartzell Top-Prop, it would probably require a new prop. I personally prefer the M-T.

This would be a true 215HP. It’s the engine that’s been in the SR-20 since 2017. And it's available in the RV-14. Van's Announces New Optional RV-14 Engine Configuration - Van's Aircraft Total Performance RV Kit Planes (vansaircraft.com)

It would certainly not be cheap. But for someone with a clean airframe who is in need of an engine and prop overhaul, it would be a true upgrade.

[Shadrach]

For years I’ve thought a factory Remanufacturing process would be a reasonable option for Mooney. Standardizing full airframe inspection and refurbishment, tank reseal, panel, cowling mods and paint would be great but to make any money, you’d have to be able to make 50k per airplane and I’m not sure you could make the numbers work.  The IO390 answers a question that no one asked. It’s all sizzle and no steak. A better idea would be to work with Tornado Alley Turbos to add the Mooney airframe to the STC’d TN system they certified for the C177 Cardinal. A factory refurbed TN’d and intercooled mid-body with the 2900lb MGW would be the performance leader in class but it really would need BRS to be competitive. 
 

It’s a dream though. The market is shrinking. A great many teens and 20 somethings hardly want invest in a driver’s license much less learn to fly. I hope that changes.

[smccray]

There isn't enough margin to make it work.   1980s J model, buy for $100K, interior, paint, panel, manufacturing cost- have to charge $350-400K to the buyer to make it work.  At the end of the day the buyer still has a 40 year old airplane, or for the same money avionics are similar to a 00's SR20 or SR22.

Perhaps that could work for the long bodies and include the rumored gross weight increase (needed!) and it would work. 

[carusoam]

Invite @Jonny to stop by the discussion…

Best regards,

-a-

[A64Pilot]

On 9/26/2022 at 10:46 AM, smccray said:

There isn't enough margin to make it work.   1980s J model, buy for $100K, interior, paint, panel, manufacturing cost- have to charge $350-400K to the buyer to make it work.  At the end of the day the buyer still has a 40 year old airplane, or for the same money avionics are similar to a 00's SR20 or SR22.

Perhaps that could work for the long bodies and include the rumored gross weight increase (needed!) and it would work. 

That’s the issue in a nutshell, AG planes sold on a cycle, commodity prices were high you couldn’t build them fast enough, prices dropped, you couldn’t give one away.

I wanted to use our repair station to refurb older aircraft in slow times under the idea of keeping people employed, boss shut it down cause he didn’t see the profit he wanted.

‘People like me fly 40 year old airplanes because that’s what we can afford, or we are cheap take your pick, but we aren’t putting tw to three times what we paid into it, I’d rather buy newer

[Pinecone]

IO-390 is supposed to be a one for one swap with IO-360.

So not mount and frame changes.  Just refurbish.

Not sure the cowl would be that expensive if the factory was making it.   And they would not be paying the profit on it to themselves.

Then add in, new paint, fresh interior and replacement of all the moving parts, it would be expensive.  Also update panel and avionics.

And how much would people pay for a factory refurbished airplane?  $250,000???

 

It didn't work very well for the couple of companies that tried this with Cessna 172.  And that market is HOT.

 

[bmcconnaha]

So, I have done most of what you’re recommending. I turned my 110k 1990 J into a 310k project real fast (after interior, avionics and autopilot) All in all, it’s been an amazing ride, and I do love my J.  But, I’m so tired of Mooney parts pricing, I can’t fathom doing it again.  I’ve spent thousands in little Micky mouse crap.  Here is some of the recents: 

exhaust cavity: close to 800

main gear door rod: 705

shim for engine mount (just a washer basically) 120

door sill aluminum almost 400.  

And the list goes on and on….

It’s getting harder every part I buy not to move to an RV10.  Not a bash by any means, but I certainly am tired of parts pricing and or lack of availability and support from the factory.  Maybe they could look into getting us some no back springs for plessy actuators.  

 

[bmcconnaha]

On 9/26/2022 at 2:16 PM, 1980Mooney said:

Not cheap is right.  You are talking a clean firewall forward.   In AirPower's 2022 "Discounted" Price list they list a new IO-390  at$93K (MSRP $113K).  Rebuilt is nearly $60K. https://www.airpowerinc.com/lycoming-announces-mid-year-2022-price-increase  And that is not the engine with cold air intake package - that is another $5K

IO-390-C3B6    MSRP New     $112,589     AIRPOWER New $92,623.00    Rebuilt      $70,374     $58,007.00

That is without accessories.  And I assume it will need a new engine frame and mounts  - so let's add another $10k

The LoPresti type cowling is $16K and 50-80 hours to install - Total price around $24K without paint  https://www.emapa.aero/Mooney-Cowl-Kit-p/mooney-cowl-kit.htm

And the prop will be about $15K

Let's assume another 50 hours to pull and reinstall the frame and engine separate from custom fitting the cowling. Let's say $5K

I think we are at nearly $120K for a rebuilt and $153K for a new motor - and there is no mark-up for Mooney.

This reminds me of the Rocket Engineering "Missile" conversion except it is minus about -100 HP.  The Cont. IO-550A is guaranteed at least 300 HP continuous (dyno-ed engines show more).  And it has ram air cold air induction.  I am biased since I paid half that in 2001 for the Missile conversion but I agree with @Shadrach that a 390 conversion has "no steak" compared to the 550.   However, as smart as the Missile conversion was, Rocket only converted about 52 J's.  I think mine was the last.

I would have bought a missile conversion instead of the 390 I ultimately ended up buying…. One major problem tho…..doesn’t exist any longer.  

also, no motor mount or cowling changes required.  And the 390 cost less at that time than the 360 did.  True, I did buy a prop,  but mine was worn out anyways.  It’s not a missile,  but it works well.  

[67 m20F chump]

Funny you mention Van’s.  I have spent a ton on my m20f and still jave the cowl swap to go.  I keep thinking I would be better off with a vans.  I just don’t want another project!

[Shadrach]

On 9/29/2022 at 7:42 PM, bmcconnaha said:

So, I have done most of what you’re recommending. I turned my 110k 1990 J into a 310k project real fast (after interior, avionics and autopilot) All in all, it’s been an amazing ride, and I do love my J.  But, I’m so tired of Mooney parts pricing, I can’t fathom doing it again.  I’ve spent thousands in little Micky mouse crap.  Here is some of the recents: 

exhaust cavity: close to 800

main gear door rod: 705

shim for engine mount (just a washer basically) 120

door sill aluminum almost 400.  

And the list goes on and on….

It’s getting harder every part I buy not to move to an RV10.  Not a bash by any means, but I certainly am tired of parts pricing and or lack of availability and support from the factory.  Maybe they could look into getting us some no back springs for plessy actuators.  

 

 Does your mechanic go through the alternative options with you?  All of those parts could been procured for fractions of what you paid. I thought factory parts were mostly for insurance claims. 

[bmcconnaha]

4 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

 Does your mechanic go through the alternative options with you?  All f those parts could been procured for factions of what yo paid. I thought factory parts were mostly for insurance claims. 

where can we source the sheet metal parts for less? i am all ears.  he wouldnt do an owner produced part on a part that is still available from the factory ( gear door rod for example) i bought a used one, its slightly better than the one i pulled off to hold be over until the other one shows.  

[EricJ]

2 minutes ago, bmcconnaha said:

where can we source the sheet metal parts for less? i am all ears.  he wouldnt do an owner produced part on a part that is still available from the factory ( gear door rod for example) i bought a used one, its slightly better than the one i pulled off to hold be over until the other one shows.  

This means you should consider getting a different mechanic.

 

[N201MKTurbo]

I have a whole box of those shim washers. For that price you can buy a new motor mount and get two of them and a free spare motor mount.

You can make the gear door rod with some rod stock from the hardware store and a die.

Any sheetmetal guy can make the door sill in a few minuets. If I can find a brake with the right fingers, I can make one.

[bmcconnaha]

10 minutes ago, EricJ said:

This means you should consider getting a different mechanic.

 

easier said then done.  I am very particular about my maint, and want to participate in it very hands on.  i want to do most of the work on my annual, and have the IA around to isspect and sign off, and do any work i am not comfortable with.  I dont have any local mooney guys at all.  my mechanic and i have a decent relationship, but for whatever reason he didnt want to make the rod.  I probably should have fought that a little harder with him..  i should have started 4 airplanes ago was logging my time working on them with various a&ps and been working towards taking my a&p test.  

[EricJ]

9 minutes ago, bmcconnaha said:

easier said then done.  I am very particular about my maint, and want to participate in it very hands on.  i want to do most of the work on my annual, and have the IA around to isspect and sign off, and do any work i am not comfortable with.  I dont have any local mooney guys at all.  my mechanic and i have a decent relationship, but for whatever reason he didnt want to make the rod.  I probably should have fought that a little harder with him..  i should have started 4 airplanes ago was logging my time working on them with various a&ps and been working towards taking my a&p test.  

That's unfortunate, but it's basically the reason for the expenses you're incurring on parts.   You don't need an experimental category airplane, you just need a more enlightened mechanic.

 

[Shadrach]

8 hours ago, bmcconnaha said:

easier said then done.  I am very particular about my maint, and want to participate in it very hands on.  i want to do most of the work on my annual, and have the IA around to isspect and sign off, and do any work i am not comfortable with.  I dont have any local mooney guys at all.  my mechanic and i have a decent relationship, but for whatever reason he didnt want to make the rod.  I probably should have fought that a little harder with him..  i should have started 4 airplanes ago was logging my time working on them with various a&ps and been working towards taking my a&p test.  

I’m particular as well and have been through my airplane from spinner to tail. 

Surely you have your own manuals and and can see that gear door rods are listed as assemblies with a part number for each component. This is done so that wear items can be replaced.

99% of the hardware on your plane is “off the shelf” industry standard stuff. You can buy washers from Mooney but I don’t know why you would if they’re outrageously overpriced. Mooney does not make their own hardware except for in very specific cases. Did that motor mount washer Come in a Mooney parts bag? I bet there are a lot of things you could order from Mooney that are just drop-shipped from a different supplier but with a large mark up. I’m all for supporting the factory but I’m against supporting inefficient and costly business practices. 

The aluminum door sill could’ve been made by anybody with a sheet metal brake and a pulse. We’re not talking wing skin here, its major function is to hold the side panel against the door opening.  Even if we were talking about a wing skin there’s no reg that prevents a mechanic from fabricating sheet-metal. You don’t have to produce anything as an owner.

 

[Shadrach]

On 9/26/2022 at 5:16 PM, 1980Mooney said:

Not cheap is right.  You are talking a clean firewall forward.   In AirPower's 2022 "Discounted" Price list they list a new IO-390  at$93K (MSRP $113K).  Rebuilt is nearly $60K. https://www.airpowerinc.com/lycoming-announces-mid-year-2022-price-increase  And that is not the engine with cold air intake package - that is another $5K

IO-390-C3B6    MSRP New     $112,589     AIRPOWER New $92,623.00    Rebuilt      $70,374     $58,007.00

That is without accessories.  And I assume it will need a new engine frame and mounts  - so let's add another $10k

The LoPresti type cowling is $16K and 50-80 hours to install - Total price around $24K without paint  https://www.emapa.aero/Mooney-Cowl-Kit-p/mooney-cowl-kit.htm

And the prop will be about $15K

Let's assume another 50 hours to pull and reinstall the frame and engine separate from custom fitting the cowling. Let's say $5K

I think we are at nearly $120K for a rebuilt and $153K for a new motor - and there is no mark-up for Mooney.

This reminds me of the Rocket Engineering "Missile" conversion except it is minus about -100 HP.  The Cont. IO-550A is guaranteed at least 300 HP continuous (dyno-ed engines show more).  And it has ram air cold air induction.  I am biased since I paid half that in 2001 for the Missile conversion but I agree with @Shadrach that a 390 conversion has "no steak" compared to the 550.   However, as smart as the Missile conversion was, Rocket only converted about 52 J's.  I think mine was the last.

I don’t think the IO390 offers much over the IO360. I’d be interested to see how they perform side-by-side on a dyno with different degrees of ignition advance. Quite frankly, i’m not terribly impressed with the performance gains from an IO 550. I think the air frame is more suited lower power but turbo normalized set up. If I could turbo normalize my bird and and get Max gross weight to 2900lbs, I’d have a UL of 1145lbs (accounting for 75 pounds of turbo and landing gear mods) and A bird that sips fuel in the teens at 175 to 180Kts.

I agree that it would be hard to make the numbers work on a refurbed Mooney but I have seen local shops get pretty close to converting old and out dated into shiny and modern and still make a reasonable return. Donor planes need to be well purchased as do upgrades. I doubt seriously that manufactures pay anything close to retail for engines and avionics.

What Mooney needs to do is disassemble the airframe just enough to warrant removing the data plate.  the data plate off the air frame. Then they could just “zero time” the factory rebuilt airframe when it’s reassembled.

[Pinecone]

It looks like what they need to first is to get the parts system under control.

If a part is off the shelf from someone else, either point people to it, or source it for a SMALL increase in price.  Yes, they have to order and do paper work, and make a profit.  And I am willing to pay that to keep the factory going.  But $700 for $50 in parts and an hour labor is nuts.

And if they are going to resell parts, then stock some.  Yes, that takes money, but start slow.  If someone orders X, buy/make 5.  Put 4 on the shelf.  If they are gone in less than 3 months, maybe buy/make 10.

Buy/make critical parts that are known to break, like no back springs.

Parts they don't make and don't want to stock, allow the vendor to sell direct.  No income, but MASSIVE good will.

[bmcconnaha]

4 hours ago, Shadrach said:

I’m particular as well and have been through my airplane from spinner to tail. 

Surely you have your own manuals and and can see that gear door rods are listed as assemblies with a part number for each component. This is done so that wear items can be replaced.

99% of the hardware on your plane is “off the shelf” industry standard stuff. You can buy washers from Mooney but I don’t know why you would if they’re outrageously overpriced. Mooney does not make their own hardware except for in very specific cases. Did that motor mount washer Come in a Mooney parts bag? I bet there are a lot of things you could order from Mooney that are just drop-shipped from a different supplier but with a large mark up. I’m all for supporting the factory but I’m against supporting inefficient and costly business practices. 

The aluminum door sill could’ve been made by anybody with a sheet metal brake and a pulse. We’re not talking wing skin here, its major function is to hold the side panel against the door opening.  Even if we were talking about a wing skin there’s no reg that prevents a mechanic from fabricating sheet-metal. You don’t have to produce anything as an owner.

 

the parts manual list the same rod i bet as in your F.  Its welded on one side, and doesnt list the required hardware.  the washer is a thin washer i needed to align the engine in the cowl.  i was in between not having a washer on there, and one of the thicker ones that come with the lord mounts. painted and stamped with a mooney part number.  

[Shadrach]

3 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

Mooney has 2 major issues.  First is pretends and has the overhead of an airplane manufacturer but is only a parts supplier.  Second it is "catching a falling knife".

Look at the management - CEO, a "COO", Chief Engineer, Director of Quality Assurance and Customer Support.  Leasing the factory from the City of Kerrville.  Insurance, Legal and Liability for claims on the last 18 years of planes.  Then all this talk about designing and certifying new landing gear, new planes, etc - that takes real significant cash burn with no near term recovery.  I believe Jonny has made comments about struggling to get out of negative cash flow.  If Mooney is going to be just a part manufacturer/supplier then this structure is not sustainable.  They need to cut overhead and cost in order to "get their parts system under control"

Second - "the falling knife"  They are selling to a population that is shrinking.  Every month the number of surviving Mooney's declines - the deadly and severe accidents that we hear about - the poorly maintained or hangar queens that are succumbing to corrosion that we don't hear about - many "incidents" that scrap the plane (remember the botched J landing and botched K take off at Block Island? - they have never flown again - and the underinsured gear ups that regularly happen and get scrapped). Out of necessity (i.e. lack of cash) Mooney order parts and supplies in smaller and smaller quantities.  They build in smaller lots only to accumulated demand.  How do you cover margin on declining sales volume?.....Raise prices!  And as Mooney parts rise it motivates owners to avoid the Mooney Factory or MSC's  - as @Shadrach @EricJ   @N201MKTurbo recommend to make it yourself or find a scrap part.

I'll play Monday morning quarter back for a bit and say that if I were at the helm, I would be narrowing focus to a very small group of core capabilities. There must be updates that the factory can do better and more economically than a full service maintenance center with minimal regulatory burden.  Mooney has a beautifully updated airframe, to what degree can those updates be added to legacy airframes? That means all airframes not just long bodies.  Everyone will list all the reasons why this can't be done, or that won't be profitable, or yada yada yada.  Those same people would have told Dale and Alan Klapmeier all the reasons why they could never profitably design, certify and manufacture a completely new airframe.

[Ragsf15e]

12 hours ago, EricJ said:

That's unfortunate, but it's basically the reason for the expenses you're incurring on parts.   You don't need an experimental category airplane, you just need a more enlightened mechanic.

 

I believe you guys, but there aren’t as many enlightened mechanics around as you might think.  Or maybe we’re in a desert up here in the NW.  It’s pretty hard to find that person if you’re starting from scratch.  And if they’re good, they have all the business they want.

[Shadrach]

4 minutes ago, bmcconnaha said:

the parts manual list the same rod i bet as in your F.  Its welded on one side, and doesnt list the required hardware.  the washer is a thin washer i needed to align the engine in the cowl.  i was in between not having a washer on there, and one of the thicker ones that come with the lord mounts. painted and stamped with a mooney part number.  

 

In the two minutes I took to search, I found multiple replacements for front and back in rod assemblies guaranteed to be in serviceable condition for under $100.  Yes one of the bearings is welded in place. While not hard to fabricate, welding is a lost art in the current A&P community so that may be a no go for you. However, building up a serviceable rod with a new bearing on one side is not an expensive endeavor. 

[EricJ]

2 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

I believe you guys, but there aren’t as many enlightened mechanics around as you might think.  Or maybe we’re in a desert up here in the NW.  It’s pretty hard to find that person if you’re starting from scratch.  And if they’re good, they have all the business they want.

No doubt, it's an issue everywhere and getting worse as the A&P shortage gets worse.    This is one of the big reasons I went to A&P school, which is obviously also not an option for everybody.   And I admit that I look longingly at experimental category airplanes as well, for all the same reasons.   If I had space somewhere to do it I'd probably be building an RV-10 right now.

 

[bmcconnaha]

13 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

 

In the two minutes I took to search, I found multiple replacements for front and back in rod assemblies guaranteed to be in serviceable condition for under $100.  Yes one of the bearings is welded in place. While not hard to fabricate, welding is a lost art in the current A&P community so that may be a no go for you. However, building up a serviceable rod with a new bearing on one side is not an expensive endeavor. 

i stated i had sourced a used one for now in one of my previous replies.  Its better than the one i have for now.  i do like that parts manual better than the J one i have.  that diagram is much better detailed on the gear doors.  

[Shadrach]

2 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

I believe you guys, but there aren’t as many enlightened mechanics around as you might think.  Or maybe we’re in a desert up here in the NW.  It’s pretty hard to find that person if you’re starting from scratch.  And if they’re good, they have all the business they want.

This is true.  In the past, I had several bad experiences with mx facilities. Even the first owner assist I did was off putting. I pulled the flap pump and exhaust by myself. I walked into the office to talk to the IA who was everywhere but in the shop (at the FBO, riding his 4 wheeler around ,etc). He's sitting at his desk facing me  and I kid you not, a pop up opens on the screen over his shoulder with some very graphic content.

I did most of the work that annual while he rode his four wheeler, drank FBO coffee and wanked in his office.  He did check my work and give me access to tools, though I was less enthused about touching them after the office incident . The inspection cost me $2500 plus squawks in 2006.  I kept shopping and now have at least three solid guys that I can work with.