Departure Emergency - Challenger Oil Filter

[LANCECASPER]

13 minutes ago, alextstone said:

Please explain further.  The engine was without oil pressure for 2 minutes and for the last minute it was at idle.  I am not questioning your expertise, rather asking you to educate me as to the decision.

I agree on the teardown. Having this happen in VFR conditions and getting it back on the ground safely without it seizing and ending up in a power-out situation is equal to winning the lottery. I wouldn't count on all of those good things happening again. I would check with Lycoming for sure, but I wouldn't be comfortable flying it knowing that it had no oil circulating for two minutes. 

[PT20J]

On 9/16/2022 at 7:43 PM, kortopates said:

I am just surprised it didn’t leak to some degree during the leak check. I guess it didn’t get enough oil pressure till departure.

I used to just run it for a few minutes until my IA insisted I run it up to operating temp followed by a full power run up for just this reason. But even that may not be good enough…

Many years ago, I changed the spin-on filter on my car. This was before I knew the DC4 trick, and when I removed the old filter the seal stayed on the engine and I didn’t notice it. It ran that way for a couple of hundred miles and then I heard a loud whoosh while driving on a freeway and noticed a James Bond type smoke screen in my rear view mirror. Replacing the oil and filter on the shoulder with cars wizzing by was memorable. I was a young lad then — today, I’d have it towed.

Skip

[PT20J]

Lycoming SB 399 covers this…

https://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/Action to Take If Loss of Oil Pressure.pdf

[Ragsf15e]

I’d hate to be in the middle of this, but likely both your maintenance facility and the filter manufacturer have insurance.  Now’s the time to use it.

[ilovecornfields]

I agree with sharing this widely (including the SDR). Not everyone will have your combination of skill and luck and have the same outcome you did.

Good job getting down safely!

https://av-info.faa.gov/sdrx/

[alextstone]

37 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

I agree on the teardown. Having this happen in VFR conditions and getting it back on the ground safely without it seizing and ending up in a power-out situation is equal to winning the lottery. I wouldn't count on all of those good things happening again. I would check with Lycoming for sure, but I wouldn't be comfortable flying it knowing that it had no oil circulating for two minutes. 

I'm just in denial... You're right.  I've been down for four months due to rotator cuff surgery and this was my third flight since then.  I have trips scheduled and 5 days of refresher training scheduled also until the end of the year.  I'm sick to my stomach.

 

 

[Shadrach]

28 minutes ago, alextstone said:

I'm just in denial... You're right.  I've been down for four months due to rotator cuff surgery and this was my third flight since then.  I have trips scheduled and 5 days of refresher training scheduled also until the end of the year.  I'm sick to my stomach.

 

 

Alex, you’re not required to tear it down, but it would be prudent to do so.
 

Agree that you should seek restitution from shop and filter manufacture. This was not an act of god nor pilot error. This was a poorly manufactured part that perhaps could have been finessed into a reasonably safe installation but was not.
Shop cost to tear down an engine is not the same as the retail cost. This is going to be a PITA but disaster to your bank account is not a forgone conclusion 

[alextstone]

29 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Alex, you’re not required to tear it down, but it would be prudent to do so.
 

Agree that you should seek restitution from shop and filter manufacture. This was not an act of god nor pilot error. This was a poorly manufactured part that perhaps could have been finessed into a reasonably safe installation but was not.
Shop cost to tear down an engine is not the same as the retail cost. This is going to be a PITA but disaster to your bank account is not a forgone conclusion 

Agreed... Now, for the rest of the story....I own the maintenance shop and it is owned by the same LLC as the aircraft.  

I can only imagine the finger pointing that's going to go on between the two insurance companies and I worry what my premium will be next year...ugh

I work alongside the A&P and therefore I know intimately how careful and thorough he is.  He performed the install in this case because it was the first time and there is a 337 required.  

[philiplane]

Most engines will run for several minutes at high power, without oil pressure, before incurring damage. An engine at idle for two minutes could still be OK, and there are ways to learn this, short of a complete tear down. The normal procedure would be to refill the sump, and run the engine for ten minutes, verify you have correct oil pressure (at the same temperature and pressure as before, verify with engine data). Then drain the oil through a fine mesh screen, and examine the filter. If there was bearing damage it will show up right away with small flakes in the oil. If any bits are found, the next step is to pull a front cylinder and remove the rod from the crankshaft to check the bearing and journal. 

[Shadrach]

37 minutes ago, philiplane said:

Most engines will run for several minutes at high power, without oil pressure, before incurring damage. An engine at idle for two minutes could still be OK, and there are ways to learn this, short of a complete tear down. The normal procedure would be to refill the sump, and run the engine for ten minutes, verify you have correct oil pressure (at the same temperature and pressure as before, verify with engine data). Then drain the oil through a fine mesh screen, and examine the filter. If there was bearing damage it will show up right away with small flakes in the oil. If any bits are found, the next step is to pull a front cylinder and remove the rod from the crankshaft to check the bearing and journal. 

I was going to say something similar but feared there would be backlash. One thing is for sure, if it made metal, it’s still inside and will be evident after an oil change.

[philiplane]

just for fun, watch this guy try to blow up a Lycoming engine, on purpose, and it just won't die....
 

 

[jetdriven]

7 hours ago, alextstone said:

Please explain further.  The engine was without oil pressure for 2 minutes and for the last minute it was at idle.  I am not questioning your expertise, rather asking you to educate me as to the decision.

Lycoming can explain it better than I can but any engine  ran under  55 psi of oil they say the hydrodynamic wedge oil protection film is lost and the only way to verify it is to  tear it down.

https://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/Action to Take If Loss of Oil Pressure.pdf

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, jetdriven said:

Lycoming can explain it better than I can but any engine  ran under  55 psi of oil they say the hydrodynamic wedge oil protection film is lost and the only way to verify it is to  tear it down.

https://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/Action to Take If Loss of Oil Pressure.pdf

I don’t doubt what you say but the SB you linked makes no mention of 55psi or the hydrodynamic wedge. The only mention of tear down is at the end where it says:

“ In case of oil pressure loss or engine operation with oil below the minimum operating level, the most conservative action is to remove the engine, disassemble, and completely inspect all engine components. Any decision to operate an engine that was subjected to loss of oil pressure without an inspection must be the responsibility of the agency returning the aircraft to service.”

 

[Shadrach]

5 hours ago, philiplane said:

just for fun, watch this guy try to blow up a Lycoming engine, on purpose, and it just won't die....
 

 

For those that want the cliff notes, over 17 mins at max attainable power with 0 oil pressure. It finally quit but it did not seize.

[1980Mooney]

7 hours ago, ilovecornfields said:

I agree with sharing this widely (including the SDR). Not everyone will have your combination of skill and luck and have the same outcome you did.

Good job getting down safely!

https://av-info.faa.gov/sdrx/

 

6 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Alex, you’re not required to tear it down, but it would be prudent to do so.

Agree that you should seek restitution from shop and filter manufacture. This was not an act of god nor pilot error. This was a poorly manufactured part that perhaps could have been finessed into a reasonably safe installation but was not.
Shop cost to tear down an engine is not the same as the retail cost. This is going to be a PITA but disaster to your bank account is not a forgone conclusion 

 

6 hours ago, alextstone said:

Agreed... Now, for the rest of the story....I own the maintenance shop and it is owned by the same LLC as the aircraft.  

I can only imagine the finger pointing that's going to go on between the two insurance companies and I worry what my premium will be next year...ugh

I work alongside the A&P and therefore I know intimately how careful and thorough he is.  He performed the install in this case because it was the first time and there is a 337 required.  

This sounds like the perfect candidate for an SDR and a broad PIREP on Challenger Aviation Products.  It sounds like a poorly engineered product design with even poorer quality control.  There is no way that that thick Quad Seal could be oozing out unless it is the wrong size or manufactured from the wrong elastomer compound which expanded in contact with hydrocarbons.  The Quad Seal clearly does not fit the machined groove.  It sounds like in spite of highly skilled personnel installing it with meticulous detail per Challenger instructions it still failed.  The plane and lives could have been lost.  Those on MS should consider this when contemplating buying anything from Challenger.  And it should appear on the next to last page of Aviation Safety so all brand owners in the flying community can be aware.

I would think that Challenger would be eager to make this right - both with you financially and by recalling the defective versions of this product before someone is killed.  If you don't inform the FAA then Challenger can claim ignorance of the defective design and/or manufacturing.  Once the FAA and Challenger are informed then future new installation failures will be negligence on the part of Challenger. 

[jetdriven]

3 hours ago, Shadrach said:

I don’t doubt what you say but the SB you linked makes no mention of 55psi or the hydrodynamic wedge. The only mention of tear down is at the end where it says:

“ In case of oil pressure loss or engine operation with oil below the minimum operating level, the most conservative action is to remove the engine, disassemble, and completely inspect all engine components. Any decision to operate an engine that was subjected to loss of oil pressure without an inspection must be the responsibility of the agency returning the aircraft to service.”

 

I’m just some guy on the Internet. You can have the mechanic who puts his airplane back together to call Lycoming and get their take on the subject, then analyze the data that it ran for two minutes without oil pressure, and then ask him to return it to service and all of the liability that incurs as well. It’s like a prop strike, it’s probably OK but you really don’t know. 

[philiplane]

Lack of oil pressure affects each part differently. Cam and crank bearings turn slowly, and there is plenty of oil left around the journals, and in the galleys, to provide enough lubrication to prevent seizing or galling for some time. Cylinders will suffer more quickly, since they run the hottest and the scraping action of the rings will clear oil much faster than other parts. So I would not panic about this particular loss of oil pressure. I would evaluate it carefully before making any decisions. Setting aside cost, downtime, and liability. It's either OK, or it's not. So one day's worth of inspection should tell you whether it's OK, or it has to come apart.

As another data point, I reviewed flight and engine data for a plane that had an oil pressure indication problem. It flew for 10 minutes on approach with the gauge going from 60 to zero and back, then to zero. The pilot landed, and then disconnected and reconnected the sensor, and verified the sump was full. He started up, saw 50 PSI, departed, flew for 5 minutes while the gauge went back to zero, and the engine threw a rod. So this engine was operated for 5 minutes at full power on a hot day, after running 10 minutes at low cruise power, with no oil pressure, before it suffered damage. It takes a lot to harm these engines.

[1980Mooney]

30 minutes ago, philiplane said:

Lack of oil pressure affects each part differently. Cam and crank bearings turn slowly, and there is plenty of oil left around the journals, and in the galleys, to provide enough lubrication to prevent seizing or galling for some time. Cylinders will suffer more quickly, since they run the hottest and the scraping action of the rings will clear oil much faster than other parts. So I would not panic about this particular loss of oil pressure. I would evaluate it carefully before making any decisions. Setting aside cost, downtime, and liability. It's either OK, or it's not. So one day's worth of inspection should tell you whether it's OK, or it has to come apart.

As another data point, I reviewed flight and engine data for a plane that had an oil pressure indication problem. It flew for 10 minutes on approach with the gauge going from 60 to zero and back, then to zero. The pilot landed, and then disconnected and reconnected the sensor, and verified the sump was full. He started up, saw 50 PSI, departed, flew for 5 minutes while the gauge went back to zero, and the engine threw a rod. So this engine was operated for 5 minutes at full power on a hot day, after running 10 minutes at low cruise power, with no oil pressure, before it suffered damage. It takes a lot to harm these engines.

As stated previously the connecting rod bearings are downstream of the mains n the oil flow pathway. Upon loss of pressure the hydrodynamic pressure wedge is lost and there is more metal to metal contact. Depending on engine speed, engine load and smoothness of bearing surfaces friction induced heat will build. And as a result the connecting rod bearings seem to suffer more and sooner upon starvation.  

As you point out the engine will likely run just fine. But the question is what level of damage, what accelerated wear and reduction of engine life occurred?  I am curious what a “one days worth of (engine) inspection” involves.  What exactly do you inspect?  Cylinder wall with boroscope?  Do  you pull a cylinder and rod to examine wall, rings and rod bearings?  If any oil is left in the sump do you analyze for metal content? (Oil analysis and filter examination?)

Thanks

[Wildhorsetrail]

In one of Mike Busch's articles he mentions a guy who had a similar issue. Ran it out of oil just before landing. The A&P was adamant that he needed to "tear it down." Mike suggested a multi step detailed gound run, oil drain, analysis schedule. The guy followed this carefully. No excessive wear was observed in the oil analysis, and after some of thsis he did some short flights, still doing the anlysis regularly, but gradually increasing oil change back to normal. I don't think a knee jerk "tear it down" is necessary.

[A64Pilot]

If it was a Military aircraft we would fill it with oil and do a 10 min run at 100% RPM, then inspect filter and have an oil analysis done, then a 30 min hover. inspect filter,  oil analysis, then after 10 hours of flight.

I’ve had to do it once or twice and the only time we had a problem it was making metal, and not just a little metal, but so much there was no doubt after the 10 min run.

I had a new 1340 spin it’s main bearing, I thought we had a problem so we pulled the screens, they were so packed with metal they were hard to remove.

If I were in your position I’d do the Military thing, and if it starts making metal I guess speak with a lawyer about Challengers liability. I have no idea if you could get anything that way.

The few bottom ends I’ve seen hurt, there was no question they made so much metal, but you have to look at the screen and filter to know, even a chip light wouldn’t help as bearing material isn’t magnetic.

The most conservative response is always a tear down.

[jetdriven]

6 hours ago, philiplane said:

Lack of oil pressure affects each part differently. Cam and crank bearings turn slowly, and there is plenty of oil left around the journals, and in the galleys, to provide enough lubrication to prevent seizing or galling for some time. Cylinders will suffer more quickly, since they run the hottest and the scraping action of the rings will clear oil much faster than other parts. So I would not panic about this particular loss of oil pressure. I would evaluate it carefully before making any decisions. Setting aside cost, downtime, and liability. It's either OK, or it's not. So one day's worth of inspection should tell you whether it's OK, or it has to come apart.

As another data point, I reviewed flight and engine data for a plane that had an oil pressure indication problem. It flew for 10 minutes on approach with the gauge going from 60 to zero and back, then to zero. The pilot landed, and then disconnected and reconnected the sensor, and verified the sump was full. He started up, saw 50 PSI, departed, flew for 5 minutes while the gauge went back to zero, and the engine threw a rod. So this engine was operated for 5 minutes at full power on a hot day, after running 10 minutes at low cruise power, with no oil pressure, before it suffered damage. It takes a lot to harm these engines.

It looked like fluctuating oil pressure  for ten minutes. Then a five minute flight where the oil pressure did go to zero.  Then it threw a rod. It trended down to zero at some point cut it wasn’t likely at zero the entire 5-minute flight. We don’t know exactly when the damage was done, either. 

[EricJ]

4 hours ago, Wildhorsetrail said:

In one of Mike Busch's articles he mentions a guy who had a similar issue. Ran it out of oil just before landing. The A&P was adamant that he needed to "tear it down." Mike suggested a multi step detailed gound run, oil drain, analysis schedule. The guy followed this carefully. No excessive wear was observed in the oil analysis, and after some of thsis he did some short flights, still doing the anlysis regularly, but gradually increasing oil change back to normal. I don't think a knee jerk "tear it down" is necessary.

This would be my thought as well.    Unless the engine is at a point where they're comfortable sending it off, anyway, I don't think there's any need to assume it's been damaged.  Some work to assess the condition may ultimately save some time and money and effort.   It may well come down to needing an overhaul, but I wouldn't assume so yet.

I'm also curious as to the manufacturer's thoughts on the filter and the seal.  An engine oil filter manufacturer is likely to be particular about the seals (or gasket, whatever) they ship with their product, since that is a critical component.   I don't think we know that the seal/gasket was faulty.

 

[jetdriven]

On 9/18/2022 at 12:38 PM, alextstone said:

I'm just in denial... You're right.  I've been down for four months due to rotator cuff surgery and this was my third flight since then.  I have trips scheduled and 5 days of refresher training scheduled also until the end of the year.  I'm sick to my stomach.

 

 

If it were me I would eat the 20k and labor.  You may be able to disassemble it and swap the bearings, hone it and put new rings  and put it back together yourself for a lot less than that. You gotta pay the engine shop and the labor to r/r it, but it’s probably better than getting cancelled for mx shop insurance.  There’s only two people writing shop policies, and one of them doesn’t understand the type of work shops do, and they cost more also. 
and I’d get the plane into a different LLC today.  If someone has a claim against your shop, your 250k plane is at risk for anything above policy limits.  

[Joshua Blackh4t]

I had an oil cooler hose burst in an ultralight years ago. It had a jabiru 4 cylinder 80hp aero engine.

I didn't notice until the oil sprayed onto the exhaust and smoke started coming into the cabin.

I thought I switched it off in time and we ground ran it for hours with regular oil changes and filter checks. It made a few specks of metal, then no more. And the manufacturer said it should be ok.

So I took off again and it started misfiring so I had to make another forced landing and the 2nd wasn't so good.

Turns out the cylinders were scored and oil got past and fouled up the plugs.

Anyway, I think I'd pull a cylinder and have a look. Seems a reasonable first action.

Sorry to hear about it. Good job saving the plane and yourself.

[alextstone]

Thanks to all of you who have posted such thoughtful experiences and advice.  Last night I filtered the oil and cut open the filter after one hour of run time.  I did not have time yet to pull the oil screen.  Here are some photos of the metal flakes I found.  Sorry about the poor quality of the photos. I'm certainly no expert but impression from looking at them is that they look like the same alloy as that of main bearings.  In total, there were perhaps 5-6 flakes in the filter and the same number captured in the filtered oil.  

 

 

 

i