LANCECASPER Posted September 6, 2022 Report Share Posted September 6, 2022 We finished up the first annual last week and everything went well. This weekend I noticed the first signs that my starter adaptor (P/N 642087A70) is starting to slip (220 hrs total time on engine). When I first bought the airplane (170 hrs) I noticed it still had the Iskra starter. The first thing I ordered was a new starter (Continental 658741 or Hartzell PM2407). Continental recommends this starter in SIL-16A. (https://www.aviationpros.com/engines-components/aircraft-engines/piston-engines-parts/press-release/12419762/hartzell-engine-technologies-llc-cirrus-selects-skytec-pm2407-starter-on-continental-engines) The starter I put in is probably fine but whatever kickback damage was done with the Iskra starter is probably now showing up. When I owned an Ovation I had the Starter Adaptor go and had a horrible experience with Aircraft Specialty Services (ASS). I ordered and exchange (probably a mistake) and returned the core to them. Weeks later when they still hadn't returned my core charge, they showed me why I never wanted to do business with them again. So here I am again 7 years later. I have heard that on first-run adapters it's better to get yours IRAN than to get an exchange, since the exchange may have been overhauled a few times. I have heard good things about G & N doing an IRAN, but have never used them. It seems like this happens frequently on big bore Continentals. Have any Acclaim or Ovation owners recently had to do this? Whom did you use? What was your experience? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fly Boomer Posted September 6, 2022 Report Share Posted September 6, 2022 15 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said: It seems like this happens frequently on big bore Continentals. 1. What oil and additives do you use? CamGuard? 2. BT guys say get a new spring from Niagra, and get the shaft turned. If the shaft is too far gone, get a new shaft as well, and fix it yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LANCECASPER Posted September 6, 2022 Author Report Share Posted September 6, 2022 1. I had a bad experience with Camguard and starter adapters - first time I used it on an Ovation back in 2015 the starter adaptor started to slip. Bought a Bravo shortly after that with a Lycoming so went back to Camguard - no starter adapter, no problem. Mentioned it here, everyone says no way would camguard cause that. Talked to Camguard at an airshow - they say it's impossible, no way does it cause starter adapters to slip. First oil change with Camguard on the Acclaim, starter adapter slips. I am now a believer and will have 3 bottles of Camguard for sale soon : ) I really think it's not just one thing when it happens, the Iskra damage that was done plus the friction modifiers in Camguard probably caused mine to slip sooner. The previous owner of the airplane used Aeroshell 15/50 which also has friction modifiers. Again all of that with the Iskra is what I'm blaming for slipping starting at 220 hours. 2. Looks way beyond my capabilities (https://niagaraairparts.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/clutchspring_old_ci-06-01_revision_c_may_1_2003.pdf) Springs are backordered right now. I want someone to do this that does it every day though, so me or my mechanic won't be doing it. My first thought is G & N since they do an IRAN and this only has 220 hours on it. My mechanic says Aircraft Specialty - only way I'll do that is to send it to them for repair - I don't want an exchange. (EDIT: @Fly Boomer thanks, I looked over a Beechtalk thread and confirmed that a repair is what I want https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=205076&hilit=starter+adapter) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoxMike Posted September 6, 2022 Report Share Posted September 6, 2022 I had a problem with a slipping starter on a TSIO 520. To make a very long story short slipping traced to Aero Shell 15-50. Walt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fly Boomer Posted September 6, 2022 Report Share Posted September 6, 2022 43 minutes ago, FoxMike said: I had a problem with a slipping starter on a TSIO 520. To make a very long story short slipping traced to Aero Shell 15-50. Walt I was aware of that one, but the jury still seems to be out on Camguard. Got any TSIO-520 stories regarding Camguard? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fly Boomer Posted September 7, 2022 Report Share Posted September 7, 2022 20 hours ago, LANCECASPER said: friction modifiers in Camguard I have a TSIO-520 so I'm interested is preserving my starter adapter as long as possible. Because of this post, I have been researching this morning, but my Google Fu is a little weak. I can find reliable (company) references that say Camguard Automotive HAS friction modifiers, and I can find opinions that say that Camguard Aviation does NOT contain friction modifiers, but I can't find a reference from the company that confirms this. Best I can find is in the Q&A section for Camguard Automotive on Aircraft Spruce (not sure why they sell non-aviation stuff). I also find opinions on BT and other places that say categorically that Camguard aviation does NOT contain friction modifiers. Inconclusive research. Q: What is the difference between the automotive Camguard and the aviation Camguard? A: Automotive: Have supplemental anti-ware, works with little amount of zinc. Mainly put in older engines. Contains friction modifiers. Fuel economy boost. Different deposit control than aviation. Not for diesel. Aviation: Nationalist product, different anti-ware properties, stand-alone anti-ware package, no friction modifiers, different deposit control than automotive, higher concentration of rust inhibitor, more rust protection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LANCECASPER Posted September 7, 2022 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2022 On 9/7/2022 at 9:28 AM, Fly Boomer said: I have a TSIO-520 so I'm interested is preserving my starter adapter as long as possible. Because of this post, I have been researching this morning, but my Google Fu is a little weak. I can find reliable (company) references that say Camguard Automotive HAS friction modifiers, and I can find opinions that say that Camguard Aviation does NOT contain friction modifiers, but I can't find a reference from the company that confirms this. Best I can find is in the Q&A section for Camguard Automotive on Aircraft Spruce (not sure why they sell non-aviation stuff). I also find opinions on BT and other places that say categorically that Camguard aviation does NOT contain friction modifiers. Inconclusive research. Q: What is the difference between the automotive Camguard and the aviation Camguard? A: Automotive: Have supplemental anti-ware, works with little amount of zinc. Mainly put in older engines. Contains friction modifiers. Fuel economy boost. Different deposit control than aviation. Not for diesel. Aviation: Nationalist product, different anti-ware properties, stand-alone anti-ware package, no friction modifiers, different deposit control than automotive, higher concentration of rust inhibitor, more rust protection. I only know my experience. Twice using it in Continentals, twice on the first oil change have the starter adaptor slip. For me personally that’s enough data. If Camguard can’t spell “wear” correctly, I doubt their chemistry . . Lol 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fly Boomer Posted September 7, 2022 Report Share Posted September 7, 2022 5 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said: If Camguard can’t spell “wear” correctly, I doubt their chemistry . . Lol That was on the Spruce website, but I take your point. I also understand the power of personal experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted September 8, 2022 Report Share Posted September 8, 2022 Proactively seeking info on this situation… while out at KOSH a couple of years ago… Discussing OH of the starter adapter because the camguard users around here were complaining… So… I was speaking with a starter adapter OHer… in a booth with a bunch of springs and other parts…. Their thoughts were… the camguard engine will show the wear faster than the non-camguard engine… In other words… the wear is still occurring slowly over time…. By the time the camgaurd does enough extra lubrication… the adapter is already worn… I was a bit surprised with the answer… But, knowing how camguard works… and starts usually occur after oil has already dripped off of everything… camguard just isn’t that good is it? If we only started the plane once each day or two… CG would make a difference… Sometimes we start the engine several times in a day… the oil doesn’t have a chance to drip off… CG is known for keeping oil attached to metal surfaces… is it changing the behavior of the oil itself? More slippery? Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted September 9, 2022 Report Share Posted September 9, 2022 I have a client who put victory XC 20W50 oil in his ovation and it killed the starter adapter literally a couple starts later. It’s a couple thousand bucks to get one of these things done and you may be waiting a while as well, so keep that Triphenyl phosphate crap out of your engine 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philiplane Posted September 9, 2022 Report Share Posted September 9, 2022 I use Camguard in Continentals accumulating several thousand hours annually. Zero starter adapter problems. Several of these are training planes that get the starters abused too. Certified Engines Unlimited at KHWO is top notch on starter adapter repairs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fly Boomer Posted September 9, 2022 Report Share Posted September 9, 2022 14 hours ago, jetdriven said: I have a client who put victory XC 20W50 oil in his ovation and it killed the starter adapter literally a couple starts later. It’s a couple thousand bucks to get one of these things done and you may be waiting a while as well, so keep that Triphenyl phosphate crap out of your engine Wow, that's confusing. In an email response to a VansAirforce subscriber, Ed Kollin at Camguard said (this is one paragraph of the email): The Aeroshell 15W-50 and Plus oils also contain a triphenyl phosphate anti-scuff that decomposes and attacks seals in the engine. Camguard protects seals from this chemical attack. https://vansairforce.net/community/printthread.php?t=109023 Sounds like Camguard (at least the aviation version) doesn't contain triphenyl phosphate. Not sure about the automotive version? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted September 10, 2022 Report Share Posted September 10, 2022 Ed Kolin used to stop by… But unfortunately, he had a sales presence when it was least appreciated…. https://mooneyspace.com/search/?q="Ed kolin"&quick=1&updated_after=any&sortby=relevancy&search_and_or=or Some MSers don’t appreciate the sales tactics or politics…. Until they are looking for them… Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will.iam Posted September 11, 2022 Report Share Posted September 11, 2022 When i bought my 252 plane in 2020, the PO used AS15w-50 i switched to phillips 20w-50 with camguard. Within 6 months i had my first slip of the starter. Then another slip a month later. At the time did not know how many more starts i would get before it failed. People had opinions all over the place from next start to you have 20 to 30 starts and it would start happening more often until it fails completely to grab. I has a 2 year old concord battery that i keep on a battery minder so i was pretty sure it was getting a full juice crank as some say the adapter can slip on a weak battery start. After searching for a place to IRAN, and finding out it would be a 3 week lead time and i did not want to down the plane before an annual in less than 6-months, i gambled and kept flying the plane. I would get it done at annual time. Or if the slipping got worse i would reevaluate. It was coming up on summer and i switched to AS100 and camguard. I must have started the plane 20 more times and it never slipped again. Got it into annual and selected QAA in tulsa to IRAN. Took them 6 weeks and was the main delay in getting my annual complete. Part of the problem is the A&P asked them if they needed the mounting plate or just the adapter. They said just the adapter. But then when it arrived they called and said the needed the mounting plate too so it costed an additional week of time to get them all the parts they needed for the repair. But I haven’t had the adapter slip again on 200 hours so far. Still using camguard @LANCECASPER if you still are selling your camguard, I’ll buy it off of you. I’m going to the mooney summit so if you are going and can bring the oil there we could exchange then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niko182 Posted September 11, 2022 Report Share Posted September 11, 2022 I used tims in long beach. I think it took like 2 weeks for an exchange. Easy to deal with and it went on for the life of the engine. I paid right around 2k. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EarthboundMisfit Posted September 13, 2022 Report Share Posted September 13, 2022 Here is our tale. July 2018 – First replacement - A slipping propeller during start On our 2005 M20R Ovation 2GX, the first starter adapter failure was in July 2018. We noticed the prop slipping during starting/cranking. We elected to replace the starter adapter and swapped out the Iskra starter motor for an Energizer unit. August 2018 – Second replacement - Infant mortality After just 5 starts (I am not kidding), the overhauled starter adapter failed, requiring another overhaul. This is what infant mortality in a starter adapter looks like: Root cause was a mystery. It was suggested that this was caused by a kickback event, so we also completed checks per the TCM service bulletin on the topic (SB 16-6 "Engine Damage Due to Kickback"). We never observed a kickback/reverse rotation event. The new starter adapter was installed, and the first few starts we deliberately recorded on video. We remain sceptical that "kickback" was the probable cause, as suggested by the overhaul shop. Chalked the experience up to "learning". September 2020 – Third failure - Another slipping starter adapter Noticed slipping again, and immediately removed the adapter for inspection. This is what our starter adapter spring looked like: The non-attached end was bent, and three coil winding's were out of shape. The spring had not unwound/released at some point. The shaft was in good condition (within tolerance) and was re-used. Kickback was (again) suggested as a cause, but we never saw the prop reverse rotation or stop suddenly during start/cranking (when the starter would be engaged). We couldn’t rule out a kickback event as the cause, but we're confident we'd know one if we saw it (had a kick-start motorbike do that to me once...). Given two previous replacements, we were paranoid about correct starting procedure. We started wondering about the ignition system and inspected all components between the ignition key starter switch and the starter motor. Was the starter disengaging correctly? October 2020 – New starter adapter, change to push button start The repaired starter adapter was installed. On the electrical side, we also took the opportunity to replace the rotary starter switch and the starter relay with this: We have had no issues since. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted September 13, 2022 Report Share Posted September 13, 2022 Wow! Great pics of the starter adapter disaster! Thanks for sharing them! +1 For starter kick back noticeability…. You won’t miss it… Some may not recognize it… but, with motor cycle kick start experience… you know what is going on… Things that can cause kick back… Our Bendix switch is wired so starting is performed using one mag…. That mag (usually left) has a circuit that changes timing to fire at TDC… If the start circuit has failed, or the other mag is not off during the start sequence… a spark may occur before TDC, as usual… If the prop is slow to turn, and the spark occurs before TDC… something usually breaks… while the prop tries to go backwards and the starter is driving forwards… Some older Mooneys are missing a tooth from the starter ring gear on the prop… (from similar failure) PP thoughts only, not a mechanic… Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mcstealth Posted September 15, 2022 Report Share Posted September 15, 2022 On 9/7/2022 at 9:35 PM, LANCECASPER said: If Camguard can’t spell “wear” correctly, I doubt their chemistry . . Lol Where, wear, ware, were.....wolves. Sorry. Couldn't resist. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LANCECASPER Posted September 17, 2022 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2022 FOLLOW UP: I pulled the starter adapter and sent it off to G & N last week. I got it back yesterday and installed it today. My IA came by and supervised and signed it off. After talking to G & N and Niagara I have gone back to an Energizer Starter also. Very good experience with G & N - they recommended a Repair as Necessary, since my adapter only has 220 hours on it. The repair was $981. Niagara wanted $2500 for an overhaul. Receipt: https://www.dropbox.com/s/2clwjmw3665a5ie/G%26 N starter adapter receipt.heic?dl=0 I had purchased a new Hartzell (formerly Lamar) PM2407 starter back in November to replace the Iskra which is a known problem waiting to happen with these starter adapters. The PM2407 was lighter but still recommended by Continental. Both Niagara and G & N said that they are now getting adapters back with just a couple hundred hours from Cirrus airplanes with the PM2407. The PM stands for permanent magnet and as you turn it you can feel the indexing, it is not a smooth turn like the old reliable, heavy Energizer, so they are saying that there are some kickbacks. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philiplane Posted September 17, 2022 Report Share Posted September 17, 2022 kickback is common on dual-impulse coupled Continentals, it occurs when one impulse coupling fails to engage, so one mag is firing TDC and the bad one is firing at 22 BTDC. The counter weights on impulse couplings can stick, so they do not throw out while cranking and delay the spark to TDC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted September 17, 2022 Report Share Posted September 17, 2022 I have a client with a 700 hours since new ovation engine and all. He changed his own oil but he didn’t know what was the best, he used Phillips victory oil. And that killed the starter adapter literally the next flight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philiplane Posted September 25, 2022 Report Share Posted September 25, 2022 I hear lots of stories about oil suddenly killing starter adapters, but if you think about it, it's just a random occurrence. I have dozens of Continental engines in my care, and changing oil types doesn't appear to have any correlation to adapter woes. Most woes are related to Iskra starters, which were the OEM starter for most Continentals from 2001 onward. People would run these starters for years, change to another starter, change the oil, then blame the oil when the adapter slips. Although the damage was already done by the Iskra starter. The tiny amount of anti-scuff additive in Victory oils is no different than the anti-scuff found in Aeroshell 15w50. Both oils meet the Lycoming specs for anti-scuff additive, which is what people are blaming for slipping adapters. 700 to 900 hours is all you can expect of an adapter that started life with an Iskra starter, regardless of oil used. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danb Posted July 4, 2023 Report Share Posted July 4, 2023 On 9/16/2022 at 9:30 PM, philiplane said: kickback is common on dual-impulse coupled Continentals, it occurs when one impulse coupling fails to engage, so one mag is firing TDC and the bad one is firing at 22 BTDC. The counter weights on impulse couplings can stick, so they do not throw out while cranking and delay the spark to TDC. What exactly is a kickback and what does it feel like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricJ Posted July 5, 2023 Report Share Posted July 5, 2023 16 minutes ago, Danb said: What exactly is a kickback and what does it feel like. When the starter is turning over the engine during a start attempt and the prop suddenly stops and kicks backward (due to one cylinder firing BTDC). It can be fairly violent and will get your attention. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philiplane Posted July 5, 2023 Report Share Posted July 5, 2023 not only is it violent, it can shear the bolts on the large gear attached to the crank. Which involves removing the engine to split the case for repair. $$$$$ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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