Mooney TLS/Bravo - Why would I want one?

[Fly Boomer]

1 hour ago, alextstone said:

Try converting it to a .csv file...

That could work, SAVE AS CSV in Excel - - .CSV is just text.  If it doesn't like .CSV, rename the .CSV file to .TXT and try again.

[Fly Boomer]

15 hours ago, donkaye said:

wish I could attach my Rocket Excel Spreadsheet file to let you play "what if",

PM sent

[alextstone]

4 hours ago, donkaye said:

I just tried it again and was alerted that the file format would't work.  It would be nice if Craig could fix that.

Here's another trick....rename the Excel worksheet as a .csv file...lie to the software essentially.  Then notify the receiver to rename it as a .xls....

[DCarlton]

4 hours ago, slowflyin said:

I'll chime in.   Flew an F for 450 hours.  Loved it!  Nice UL, reasonable speed, low fuel burn.  In-laws moved farther away... offsite work farther away...... Most importantly, my bride ask is we could go faster!  I bought my Bravo from Jimmy.  It had been on the market for a long time.  1800 hours on the engine scared most folks away.  I sourced the logbooks and oil analysis and didn't find any gotchas.   Bought it planning to fly it until the engine let me know it was time.  All along I was collecting parts.  New jugs, motor mounts..... At 2200 hours she was still running like a watch.   All compression were still good with satisfactory oil analysis results.   Financially the time was right, so I broke down and overhauled.   This engine had the Bravo conversion at 300 hours and was still running the same top end with no cylinder work!  According to the logs, aside from some exhaust work and the typical accessory failures she ran trouble free until overhaul.   I concur with Don K, this engine is extremely reliable and durable with the exception of the exhaust.  Like lots of turbos, budget for mid-time repairs.  Dispatch rate has been fantastic.   A respectable rate of climb above all but the worst weather returns more direct routes, center coms only during cruise, a quieter (less wind noise) cabin, and less traffic.  My flights are busy in the beginning, leisurely in cruise, and busy at the end.   All in all, she's a joy to fly and very capable aircraft.  No remorse.   All that being said, if you don't like to fly high, a Bravo isn't your best choice.  Anything below 8k leaves me wondering why I'm going so slow.     One more thought, mine runs smooth LOP.  My challenge is keeping the TIT within my personal limit on the lean side.  At 25-50 LOP the TIT is well above 1650.  Others have had better luck.  I've yet to try multiple power settings so I'm still optimistic.  

If you're not flying high with O2, what's the typical cruise fuel burn at 11,500 - 12,500?  Thanks.

[donkaye]

1 hour ago, DCarlton said:

If you're not flying high with O2, what's the typical cruise fuel burn at 11,500 - 12,500?  Thanks.

Since the plane is turbocharged you can fly whatever power setting you want and the FF will be the same.  Altitude doesn't make a difference.

[DCarlton]

3 hours ago, donkaye said:

Since the plane is turbocharged you can fly whatever power setting you want and the FF will be the same.  Altitude doesn't make a difference.

I guess I knew that but needed you to point me to it.  :>.   Can you operate at 15 gph or better if you're flying down low working on currency; approaches, touch and goes etc or jumping from one local airport to another?  Thanks.

[donkaye]

48 minutes ago, DCarlton said:

I guess I knew that but needed you to point me to it.  :>.   Can you operate at 15 gph or better if you're flying down low working on currency; approaches, touch and goes etc or jumping from one local airport to another?  Thanks.

Just like with a car you can drive at any speed you want, so, too, with the Bravo.  It has a large dynamic range of speeds from slow flight to fast.  So, if you're out practicing, you can fly slow.  While i haven't tried it recently, when I was working with my mentor instructor many years ago, I think I remember the Bravo being able to hold altitude clean on about 35% power.  I'll have to go out and try it the next time I go flying.  35% power would be about 17"/2400, which seems about right.

[Steve Dawson]

I just flew three short flights today and all were at ~65% and 15 GPH. At 5500 ft msl I was trueing at 162 KTAS. if you approximate for 2knts / 1000 ft that would equal to 182 KTAS at 15K and at 15 GPH. TIT was at 1575deg. 

[slowflyin]

15 hours ago, DCarlton said:

If you're not flying high with O2, what's the typical cruise fuel burn at 11,500 - 12,500?  Thanks.

What Don and Steve posted.  

[BravoWhiskey]

Cruise chart states something like 10 gph at a low setting of 24/2200.  You can float around up there for hours!

[DCarlton]

This thread seriously increased my interest in trading up while I still can.  But then I realized something...  If I buy a $200K+ aircraft in CA, I'll drop $16,000+ on sales taxes plus increased property taxes every year.  Even if I value the new airplane and want to spend the $$ to buy it, how can you ever convince yourself to drop $16K - $20K on sales taxes.  Paying the Govt. more money just pisses me off.   Perhaps the AOPA needs to work to express the impact sales and property taxes have on aviation.     

[Niko182]

13 minutes ago, DCarlton said:

This thread seriously increased my interest in trading up while I still can.  But then I realized something...  If I buy a $200K+ aircraft in CA, I'll drop $16,000+ on sales taxes plus increased property taxes every year.  Even if I value the new airplane and want to spend the $$ to buy it, how can you ever convince yourself to drop $16K - $20K on sales taxes.  Paying the Govt. more money just pisses me off.   Perhaps the AOPA needs to work to express the impact sales and property taxes have on aviation.     

Apperently theres a ca loophole for sales tax. If the first year the plane is out of california for more than half the year, the sales tax gets waved. I learned that from a buddy who bought a half million dollar bo. I wish I knew that before I bought my Slowvation.

[DCarlton]

18 minutes ago, Niko182 said:

Apperently theres a ca loophole for sales tax. If the first year the plane is out of california for more than half the year, the sales tax gets waved. I learned that from a buddy who bought a half million dollar bo. I wish I knew that before I bought my Slowvation.

I doubt it's that easy to avoid and it looks like it's 12 months not 6.  See "Not Purchased For Use In CA".  CA wants their money.  I received a property tax bill this year for the last four years for a boat I bought in OK.  They called it a tax "escape".  I store the boat in AZ but don't have a residence or address there to register it; so it's registered in CA.  It's only been across the state line once to register it and verify the VIN number.   Gotcha.  

https://www.cdtfa.ca.gov/industry/vehicles-vessels-aircraft-guide.htm#Aircraft

[carusoam]

+1 for using your tax guy….

I learned the rules for NJ after the deal was done…

Fortunately, in time to not miss the important details….

My selling and buying were months apart….

Every state is different…

Best regards,

-a-

[Red Leader]

I think we got off topic a bit (it happens in forums such as these, so no foul). I have a M20K and am trying to decide if an M20M would be a worthwhile upgrade. I have found a plane on Trade-a-Plane that I am seriously considering. I haven't contacted the owner yet as I am waiting for the insurance quote to come back from Assured Partners Aerospace but if it is reasonable, I will be calling. Guys, please look at the plane - it is a 1994 Mooney Bravo, N9133F and tell me what you think.

[slowflyin]

 

Beautiful AC!  Equipped well with better than average useful load.   I always advise folks to avoid buying at the bottom of the market.  It's often cheaper to buy someone else's pride and joy.   This aircraft seems to fit that bill.  

[Jerry 5TJ]

20 hours ago, DCarlton said:

This thread seriously increased my interest in trading up while I still can.  But then I realized something...  If I buy a $200K+ aircraft in CA, I'll drop $16,000+ on sales taxes plus increased property taxes every year.  Even if I value the new airplane and want to spend the $$ to buy it, how can you ever convince yourself to drop $16K - $20K on sales taxes.  Paying the Govt. more money just pisses me off.   Perhaps the AOPA needs to work to express the impact sales and property taxes have on aviation.     

If you follow the acquisition and California business use test rules exactly and you document that >50% of the use in the test period (first 6 or 12 months) is for interstate business use the CA sales tax may be permanently waived.   
You can hire a specialist tax firm to assist you with the application.  
BUT BEWARE as there are strict requirements that apply starting with the location of the sale and to the very first post-purchase flight.  
I went through the process while living in CA a decade ago in the purchase of my first P46T.  Ultimately successful but it was an exacting 18 month  process.  
If you pay the sales tax initially and then succeed in your application you will be refunded the tax.   If you defer paying the sales tax, make your application and are ultimately denied you are assessed for the tax, interest and late payment penalties.   
For a <$200K airplane it is likely to be cheaper to pay the tax than to hire a tax firm.   If you do it yourself you will spend many dozens of hours of your time.   
You also have to be very careful about “just going for a flight” in your new plane as every tenth of an hour has to be balanced by at least another tenth in interstate business use.   
When you buy yourself that new G650ER, definitely use the tax accountant.  
 

Carusoam Warning:  Not a tax attorney or CPA.  

[DCarlton]

2 hours ago, Red Leader said:

I think we got off topic a bit (it happens in forums such as these, so no foul). I have a M20K and am trying to decide if an M20M would be a worthwhile upgrade. I have found a plane on Trade-a-Plane that I am seriously considering. I haven't contacted the owner yet as I am waiting for the insurance quote to come back from Assured Partners Aerospace but if it is reasonable, I will be calling. Guys, please look at the plane - it is a 1994 Mooney Bravo, N9133F and tell me what you think.

Off topic only a tad.  You've got me looking at Bravos.  :>  That four blade got my attention too.  But eventually you've gotta pay your friendly tax man.  Good luck! 

[Red Leader]

Well, it looks as though 9133F may have sold as it is no longer advertised. A relief, actually, as I do not need a 3rd airplane. It was just such a good deal with all the upgrades I wanted that I was having a hard time not jumping on it immediately - I never did hear back from the insurance company. Although I am still very interested in a Bravo, are there any members out there who are interested in selling theirs?

[503Guy]

On 9/6/2022 at 7:12 AM, alextstone said:

And this, gentlemen and ladies, is the internet equivalent of a mic drop.  Don, you are such a wealth of experience and knowledge.  Thank you for being such an active contributor to this forum.

 

Respectfully,

Alex

couldnt have said it better, totally concur. thanks @donkaye!!

[rbp]

On 9/8/2022 at 2:08 PM, Niko182 said:

Apperently theres a ca loophole for sales tax. If the first year the plane is out of california for more than half the year, the sales tax gets waved. I learned that from a buddy who bought a half million dollar bo. I wish I knew that before I bought my Slowvation.

we did this with both of our planes. There are a number of CA tax experts that do this, and Medford airport always has a bunch of CA planes docked there. 

[Red Leader]

On 9/10/2022 at 10:59 AM, Red Leader said:

I never did hear back from the insurance company.

Just to follow-up, I (finally) received a replay today from APA with an insurance quote. They want to bill me $9679 for a 12 month term. I did not see any requirements for a checkout - likely because I already own a 231, but that rate appears excessive.

[Niko182]

12 minutes ago, Red Leader said:

Just to follow-up, I (finally) received a replay today from APA with an insurance quote. They want to bill me $9679 for a 12 month term. I did not see any requirements for a checkout - likely because I already own a 231, but that rate appears excessive.

Thats nearly 3 times what i pay. 

[LANCECASPER]

On 9/21/2022 at 8:14 PM, Red Leader said:

Just to follow-up, I (finally) received a replay today from APA with an insurance quote. They want to bill me $9679 for a 12 month term. I did not see any requirements for a checkout - likely because I already own a 231, but that rate appears excessive.

What hull value and limits of liability?

(are you sure they aren't quoting a Citation Bravo* ?)

 

*https://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/cessna_bravo/

[toomany]

i fly a bravo and a comanche 250 - the m20m weekly and the pa24 daily.  the comanche cruises at 150kts and the bravo at 175-200 depending on altitude (mostly flown at 12-18k).  i will tell you that the bravo ground speeds suffer much less in the mid-teens relative to the head wind component compared to the comanche. which makes sense- lower air density at higher altitudes.  i flew the mooney back from tampa on friday with 50kts in the face at 11k - 17k and still had a ground speed of 165kts + and tas of 185 to 195 at 28.5/2350 and 18.2 gpm w/ a tit of 1635°.  that wind on the comanche would have had me at 120-125 kts across the ground and would have made the trip much l-o-n-g-e-r.  we got the mooney to go high and fast and so far it's living up to its end of the bargain.  we have the garmin 480 - which is wonderful - and an aspen as the primary flight instruments and fly to mins when needed w/ o hesitation. the only thing i'd warn against is maybe buying a high time engine bird. we bought ours that was for sale online for months but kept looking bc of the high engine time. after a yr of looking we decided to pull the trigger justifying the purchase based upon the avionics and low af time. 4 hrs into ownership the engine turned into a grenade - luckily we were able to find another engine and cylinders and get it rebuilt by a reputable lycoming shop and get it back into the air w less expense than a factory reman or even normal rebuild. the only other mooney i've ever flown is an ovation but would take the bravo hands down over the ovation.