Mountain Mission Plane Choice

[FlyinRhino]

Hi Fellow Mooniacs!

I have scoured the forums and other publications trying to narrow down my plane search. And figured going to the source would be the most helpful in narrowing down my plane search. I am a low time pilot and trying to learn as much as I can about getting into the plane that will be best for me when I'm ready.  My mission will be flying from GUC to SMF with 2 pax plus light luggage. The route is 700nm. GUC is at 9,000 + High DA in summer. The minimum VFR alt for the section is 14.7K, but there are several routes at a lower altitude possible. Plane needs to be IFR & FIKI certified. 

The easy answer here is the Acclaim would be best suited to my mission with the turbo and higher service ceiling.  The harder question is which other models would safely execute the mission as well. 

Questions:

• Thoughts on being able to make this mission in an Encore, Bravo, or 252? 
• Are there any other modified Mooney's that would fit my mission? 
• Any experience flying around GUN to DEN- Is it feasible to take longer tracks and avoiding the high elevation passes and be ok with a non-turbo? 

Thanks in advance for sharing your experience! 

P.S. Absolutely have many hours of training (including mountain flying course) ahead of me before jumping into mountain flying in this plane but wanting to put a plan together now to work towards. 

[irishpilot]

Okay, I’ll bite. First, I’m a long time military pilot and CFI/II who owned a M20E and Bravo (with FIKI) and grew up flying in Colorado and I fly there regularly from Texas.

What is your current experience and what are you flying? Do you have your Instrument rating? Do you plan on flying more than 100 hrs per year?

I ask these questions to help us give you our best advice. If you plan on flying yourself and two pax + bags nonstop 700 nm, you can rule out Bravos. They just don’t have the useful load you need. Do you plan to fly to GUC all four seasons? You mentioned FIKI. If so, you’ll need a lot of training, and you’ll need a lot of latitude on when you’ll be able to make the trip, even with FIKI.

As for capability, even though I fly for a living in lager, faster aircraft, I’m not going to fly the ILS RWY 06 hard IFR in the winter time in a Mooney. In a single engine piston, single pilot, that just exceeds my risk matrix. I’ve flown many times to KGUC for skiing and in the summer, and I adjust my times so that I arrive/depart Day VMC.

If you’re just going to make leisure trips vs for work, it will take away a lot of the pressure to “make it happen” or “get-there-it is.”

I’m glad you’re asking questions here and doing your research. All I ask is you invest in yourself before you invest in a high performance piston. PM me if you’d like to chat more as Mooney’s and Colorado are two of my favorite topics!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[FlyinRhino]

IrishPilot,

Yes, I'm working on my IFR now. I'll likely fly just around 100 hours a year.  I should clarify it will be 2 souls total (Me and a passenger). Yes, I plan on flying year round for both work and pleasure. When weather windows aren't permitting, I'll be able to fly commercial to avoid that pesky get there itis.  I agree the safety and personal minimums are very important and warrant a whole separate discussion. 

• In your Bravo in good conditions do you feel confident flying over the passes in Colorado or do you plan your flight path for lower altitude routes? 
• I have heard climb is reduced significantly at 18k with a Bravo, does that realistically impact your flight planning in Colorado?
• Compared to an Acclaim what high altitude flying limitations do you find yourself seeing in regards to the performance characteristics (other than speed and weight)

Basically, I'm trying to understand how will my flight planning and performance be impacted flying a Bravo vs an Acclaim in Colorado if I remove weight and speed from the equation. 

Would love to reach out and chat too- I'll reach out! Thanks for your responses. 

[irishpilot]

Sounds like you're on a good training path, which is good. Climbing into the FLs takes a while. Two people on board, full fuel (89gal), and 75 lbs of bags will put you over some Bravo useful loads. It's actually the reason I sold it. I loved the high alt capability, but 862# was too low.

Rocky Mtn flying on an IFR flight plan will put you 16k and above. I flew several times in/out of KGUC on an IFR flight plan, and through pockets of IMC, but I used a ceiling of 2,000 as a minimum.

Flying VMC, I typically would stay between 12-14k and use the mtn passes. You can fly lower, but I found that to be the sweet spot so you can be on or off O2 as needed.

Above 18k and loaded, my Bravo would be at around 500 fpm climb. This will apply to most piston aircraft that approach their turbo's critical altitude.

I hope @donkaye joins this Convo as he is one of the highest time Bravo owners and CFIIs I know. His Bravo knowledge far exceeds mine.

Sent from my motorola one 5G ace using Tapatalk

[Fly Boomer]

32 minutes ago, irishpilot said:

Above 18k and loaded, my Bravo would be at around 500 fpm climb. This will apply to most piston aircraft that approach their turbo's critical altitude.

IIRC 252 service ceiling is 28,000 and critical is 24,000.

[irishpilot]

IIRC 252 service ceiling is 28,000 and critical is 24,000.

And the Bravo service ceiling is 25k. I think 252 UL is also pretty good.

Sent from my motorola one 5G ace using Tapatalk

[ArtVandelay]

There’s a rare TN J on controller for those interested in flying in the flight levels.

[donkaye, MCFI]

On 7/27/2022 at 5:09 PM, irishpilot said:

Sounds like you're on a good training path, which is good. Climbing into the FLs takes a while. Two people on board, full fuel (89gal), and 75 lbs of bags will put you over some Bravo useful loads. It's actually the reason I sold it. I loved the high alt capability, but 862# was too low.

Rocky Mtn flying on an IFR flight plan will put you 16k and above. I flew several times in/out of KGUC on an IFR flight plan, and through pockets of IMC, but I used a ceiling of 2,000 as a minimum.

Flying VMC, I typically would stay between 12-14k and use the mtn passes. You can fly lower, but I found that to be the sweet spot so you can be on or off O2 as needed.

Above 18k and loaded, my Bravo would be at around 500 fpm climb. This will apply to most piston aircraft that approach their turbo's critical altitude.

I hope @donkaye joins this Convo as he is one of the highest time Bravo owners and CFIIs I know. His Bravo knowledge far exceeds mine.

Sent from my motorola one 5G ace using Tapatalk
 

Because Excel spreadsheet files are not acceptable on Mooneyspace now, email me at donkaye@earthlink.net for my Weight and Balance Spreadsheet.  2 people and full baggage should enable you to fly 4 hours with VFR reserves.  I have a useful load of 985 pounds because I do not have TKS.  You can play "what-if" scenarios with it.  The critical attitude of the Bravo is over 21,000 Feet, so you should be able to climb full power to that altitude.  Remember Vy decreases and Vx increase as you climb to altitude, where they eventually meet.  I personally like to fly 2½ legs for myself and my passenger comfort.  It does increase the total trip time.  i have flown nonstop alone from San Jose to Colorado Springs. I have done the reverse nonstop, too.   I did the flights at FL230 Eastbound and FL220 Westbound.  

Flying KGUC to KDEN I'd be flying the Monarch Pass personally for comfort, always before noon.  If there is any convective weather stay on the ground, period, in any single engine airplane over the Rockies.  Teaching the PPP Mountain Flying Class we've easily flown Aspen to Colorado Springs direct comfortably.  Theres a large plateau between the Arkansas Valley an KCOS that is comfortable to fly over.  

I've also taken off from Leadville in the afternoon with full fuel and a DA in excess of 13,000 feet with no issue.  Leadvile is marked at each quarter length and we were off within the 1,500 foot estimate ground roll.

The best bargain out there is the Bravo in my opinion.  I say that having flown and taught in all model Mooneys except the D and G extensively.  You can check my credentials on my website at www.donkaye.com.

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard Rhino!

If Acclaim, Bravo, and other TC’d and TN’d Mooneys are your answer….

I’d go Acclaim…   (310hp IO550 fan club member)

These airframes were not produced in huge numbers…

So start looking asap….

Availability is somewhat limited until the next recession begins….

Jimmy at GMax posts his inventory regularly….

Keep gaining experience…

Flying in the flight levels on an IR clearance… is best with plenty of experience….

Best regards,

-a-

[philip_g]

Lived in Denver and flew all over Colorado. I wouldn't even consider a na airplane for that mission. Any of the turbo mooneys will be fine. Had a 231 and it was fine. Had a rocket and it was finer. Had several sr22t and they were even finer. If you want to fly that route ifr reliably you want fiki. Acclaim. Bravo. Whatever fits the budget do it.

 

Yeah you can make it work in a j or something but it'll  just suck.

 

I will say I prefer having two turbos over one. For reasons.

Edited July 28, 2022 by philip_g

[N201MKTurbo]

I bought my first Mooney in '84 while living in Denver. I was doing field service for Raytheon Data Systems, servicing computers mostly for the airlines. I bought the plane to do service calls in the Rocky Mountain area. It was an NA M20F. In '85 I flew almost 1000 hours. I flew to Gunnison quite a few times. I would just fly to Salida and then through Monarch Pass. I avoided IFR and night flights, even though I did both on occasion.  As stated above, if you can't get there VFR with an NA plane, you shouldn't be going at all. Not to mention, going to the flight levels on such a short trip is just a ballistic flight. You are just climbing or descending.

I like having a turbo, but you don't need it.

[Fly Boomer]

3 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I like having a turbo, but you don't need it.

It's a little like having money -- it gives you options. 

[FlyinRhino]

17 hours ago, donkaye said:

Because Excel spreadsheet files are not acceptable on Mooneyspace now, email me at donkaye@earthlink.net for my Weight and Balance Spreadsheet.  2 people and full baggage should enable you to fly 4 hours with VFR reserves.  I have a useful load of 985 pounds because I do not have TKS.  You can play "what-if" scenarios with it.  The critical attitude of the Bravo is over 21,000 Feet, so you should be able to climb full power to that altitude.  Remember Vy decreases and Vx increase as you climb to altitude, where they eventually meet.  I personally like to fly 2½ legs for myself and my passenger comfort.  It does increase the total trip time.  i have flown nonstop alone from San Jose to Colorado Springs and returned nonstop.  I did the flights at FL230.  

Flying KGUC to KDEN I'd be flying the Monarch Pass personally for comfort, always before noon.  If there is any convective weather stay on the ground, period, in any single engine airplane over the Rockies.  Teaching the PPP Mountain Flying Class we've easily flown Aspen to Colorado Springs direct comfortably.  Theres a large plateau between the Arkansas Valley an KCOS that is comfortable to fly over.  

I've also taken off from Leadville in the afternoon with full fuel and a DA in excess of 13,000 feet with no issue.  Leadvile is marked at each quarter length and we were off within the 1,500 foot estimate ground roll.

The best bargain out there is the Bravo in my opinion.  I say that having flown and taught in all model Mooneys except the D and G extensively.  You can check my credentials on my website at www.donkaye.com.

This is gold! Thanks @donkaye. Exactly what I was looking for. I'll email you for the spreadsheets will be fun to play around with them. 

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, Fly Boomer said:

It's a little like having money -- it gives you options. 

When I started flying I flew a Tomahawk. I flew that thing all over AZ, southern CA, NV and NM. I thought it was a great airplane that would take you any where you wanted to go. When I moved to CO I started flying a Cutlass RG. I flew that plane all over the Rockies. I couldn’t go back to a T-Hawk after that. I needed my own plane, so I bought the M20F. It made the Cutlass look wimpy, I couldn't go back to it (unless the Mooney was down). Now I have a turbo and don’t want to go back. 
 

The moral of the story is, don’t buy a better plane, you will never go back.

[Igor_U]

19 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

The moral of the story is, don’t buy a better plane, you will never go back.

Actually

For me, the moral of a story is to buy better airplane.  

[kortopates]

20 minutes ago, Igor_U said:

Actually

For me, the moral of a story is to buy better airplane.  

Couldn't agree more!

One of my favorite destinations is Mammoth airport (MMH) for winter skiing and summer hiking/climbing. Use to keep an airport car there before parking rate got too exorbitant. Don't even need a plane to get there, but flying up in under 2 hrs in our Mooney is much more convenient than the 8-9 hr drive though LA traffic. Plus our 252/Encore isn't useful load limited at over 1120lbs.

I have a fellow flight instructor friend that flys his C172 up there, which shows pretty much any plane can make it there. When the conditions are perfect. Mammoth is famous for cross winds so he only fly's his C172 up on perfect blue jay weekends in fall or spring when the density altitude is still reasonable; and only solo. On the other hand, my wife and I are able to visit there all year round and very rarely have ever had to divert. We've flown over the pass multiple times when the reported resort winds were well over 60 mph, but always crossing over by at least 4K-5K' above the terrain because we have the equipment to enable us to do so and quickly. We've been forced to stay low too because of icing concerns up higher and have had to fly down the valley lower suffering the turbulence and throttled back because of the turbulence. Kept lower like that add challenges to stay away from of rotors of severe turbulence that can do damage; easily done when visible but there not always visible. Not a glider pilot, but flying in the mountains forces you to learn as much as you can about waves and their hazards. Been lucky so far, but saw what it did to a KingAir that landed at Mammoth after it had descended into some bad turbulence (likely a rotor) with too much speed - all of its skins where significantly wrinkled. But most of the time when the weather allows, we'll cruise well above the peaks where we can pretty much always find a smooth ride despite the turbulence below. 

[thinwing]

the Bravo even with fiki is capable non stop....if flown today july 29..at fl 200 with zero head wind....22 min climb at 27 gal hr or 9 gal and 60 gal enroute to Sacramento at 20 gal hr 32/2400 .At least 1/2 hour of that is a 18ooo ft descent at 5/600 ft comfortable rate.This should allow at least a 1 hr reserve at full high speed cruise.Now the issue is useful load ..assuming 2 passengers ave 170 or 340 total w/90 gals for 880 total allows light baggage for a typical 900 lb useful load of a tks bravo.It should be noted that the long body fuel capacity is capable of additional 11 gal for 100 total.I know of some who routinely do this over weight takeoff figuring fuel burn off would allow a legal landing weight.These pilots tell me they cannot discern a real performance loss.Obviously ,I cannot recomend this practice.As far as doing this with any kind of weather...especially a pacific storm front in winter..well forget it...than you need a pilatus or a citation.

[Pinecone]

13 hours ago, Igor_U said:

Actually

For me, the moral of a story is to buy better airplane.  

I learned a long time ago, buy once, cry once.   But the one you want up front.  Otherwise you will be making upgrades until you get what you wanted in the first place.

[Schllc]

5 hours ago, Pinecone said:

I learned a long time ago, buy once, cry once.   But the one you want up front.  Otherwise you will be making upgrades until you get what you wanted in the first place.

I could not agree with this more, as I purchase my 8th Mooney.

And first Aerostar…