A New Day and Yes Another Mooney Gear-Up(s)

[1980Mooney]

A 1964 M20C, N78865.

N78865 Flight Tracking and History 09-Jul-2022 (KMKO-KMKO) - FlightAware

The track looks like "touch and goes".  KMKO elevation is almost 600 ft......so this should stimulate the usual lively debate!

Edited July 13, 2022 by 1980Mooney

[Jim Peace]

No big deal. We will pay for that one. All is right with the world. 

[1980Mooney]

7 hours ago, Jim Peace said:

No big deal. We will pay for that one. All is right with the world. 

And pay for 3 more.....  3 more Mooney's gear-up in a 6 day period.

True - All is right for A&P's, Lycoming and salvage yards in the world.

A 1964 M20C, N21007, A 1977 M20J, N201JW, doing "touch and goes", and a 1967 M20F, N135JC

If they are underinsured they will be scrapped.  If they are repaired, based upon current comments on MS and other aviation sites, they won't be flying for quite a while.

Edited August 8, 2022 by 1980Mooney

[MikeOH]

So, to you and all the others that feel the need to vilify those that choose to perform T&Gs, what is your solution?

Ban coverage for anyone that has a gear up while doing a T&G?

How about the guy that flys for only an hour but lands at three or four airports?  Ban his coverage too, if he has a gear up?

IOW, how many landings are allowed in your ideal world?  Only cross-country flights over 3 hours deserve gear up coverage?

How about the guy that doesn't do T&Gs, how come I have to pay for his mistake?  Or, is it only those evil pilots that do T&Gs that deserve no coverage?

Does anyone actually have evidence that the rate of gear ups is demonstrably higher than gear ups in general when expressed as gear ups/number of landings?  Thus my comment that only those that fly long cross countries (minimize number of landings per flight hour) deserve coverage for gear ups.

 

[1980Mooney]

2 hours ago, MikeOH said:

So, to you and all the others that feel the need to vilify those that choose to perform T&Gs, what is your solution?

Ban coverage for anyone that has a gear up while doing a T&G?

How about the guy that flys for only an hour but lands at three or four airports?  Ban his coverage too, if he has a gear up?

IOW, how many landings are allowed in your ideal world?  Only cross-country flights over 3 hours deserve gear up coverage?

How about the guy that doesn't do T&Gs, how come I have to pay for his mistake?  Or, is it only those evil pilots that do T&Gs that deserve no coverage?

Does anyone actually have evidence that the rate of gear ups is demonstrably higher than gear ups in general when expressed as gear ups/number of landings?  Thus my comment that only those that fly long cross countries (minimize number of landings per flight hour) deserve coverage for gear ups.

 

I am not sure if I am following your line of reasoning.  There were 3 gear up landings in 6 days.  One "appears" to be a straight in landing after a 2 1/2 hour flight.  One "appears" to be while doing touch and goes.  And one is unknown since there is no track online.  So in this small sample of recent gear-ups you get most of your examples. 

The problem is that there shouldn't be any gear-up landings - neither due to man nor machine.  We should have processes and fly patterns that make landing gear extension second nature.  Our landing gear should be properly maintained and adjusted. We shouldn't be bouncing and abusing our landing gear. Mooney landing gear is stout and reliable. . We should be adept at properly using the manual gear extension in case of an electrical or motor failure.  We should practice touch and goes, balked landings, going missed, and go-arounds without feeling flustered or confused.  I am a big fan of practicing Touch and Goes both during day and at night.

Straight In After Long Flight

Touch and Go

[Hank]

2 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

I am not sure if I am following your line of reasoning.  There were 3 gear up landings in 6 days.  One "appears" to be a straight in landing after a 2 1/2 hour flight.  One "appears" to be while doing touch and goes.  And one is unknown since there is no track online.  So in this small sample of recent gear-ups you get most of your examples. 

The problem is that there shouldn't be any gear-up landings - neither due to man nor machine.  We should have processes and fly patterns that make landing gear extension second nature.

And yet we are all humans, and none of us are perfect. 

[Mooneymite]

Question: How many aircraft equipped with EGPWS land gear up in a typical year?

Answer:  Virtually none.  Those that do, are almost always due to mechanical, not pilot failure.

Technology is the solution. 

After years and years of beating up on pilots, procedures, and...touch and goes we can be assured that such is not the solution.

[Fly Boomer]

3 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

I am not sure if I am following your line of reasoning.

Thankfully, I don't have direct experience, but I suspect that the reasoning is easier to follow after you have a gear-up landing.  Especially if you were doing T&Gs. 

[Hank]

52 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

Question: How many aircraft equipped with EGPWS land gear up in a typical year?

Answer:  Virtually none.

Is that available in the piston single GA market?

Thought not . . . .

Gear ups in the airlines don't happen because there are two pilots backing up the automation. We have neither a second pilot nor automation, just a small alarm that will not sound if we keep throttle in due to wind, weather, etc.

[MikeOH]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

Is that available in the piston single GA market?

Thought not . . . .

I thought the LHS from Microkit now offered a gear warning?

[ArtVandelay]

I thought the LHS from Microkit now offered a gear warning?

It’s not available today, but coming next week.

[TNIndy]

I haven't tested it but my LS100B Microkit was advertised to have the ability to announce the gear warning when I purchased it in November

 

[Hank]

3 hours ago, MikeOH said:

I thought the LHS from Microkit now offered a gear warning?

Several different audible alerts have been available for the last decade or two. But isn't EGPWS more than just a replacement for the gear horn?

[FlyingDude]

12 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

If they are underinsured they will be scrapped. 

I thought they'd be auctioned.  Chances are they'd be bought by people who want to restore them.  Still high demand for planes.  

I hope those birds keep flying...

[MikeOH]

6 minutes ago, Hank said:

Several different audible alerts have been available for the last decade or two. But isn't EGPWS more than just a replacement for the gear horn?

True. I was under the impression that our discussion related only to gear ups.

Theory being that a voice telling you to put the gear down is more effective than a simple warning horn.

[Hank]

2 minutes ago, FlyingDude said:

I thought they'd be auctioned.  Chances are they'd be bought by people who want to restore them.  Still high demand for planes.  

I hope those birds keep flying...

The auctions are often won by scrapyards . . . . who part them out. Not always, but a lot.

[KSMooniac]

It's a fine line knowing what to bid to beat the salvage yards vs. over-paying and getting upside-down if you plan to restore and fly or flip.  

I won my first bid (these are all blind/sealed bids too!) after I flew to the location and inspected the plane, and I assigned value to parts I valued, and those I could sell, and came up with a number that made sense to me.  I also discovered some valuable features that were not listed in the auction listing, like removable rear bucket seats, or the turbo system!  (This one was not economically repairable with a destroyed forward steel cage, wing damage, etc).  I don't know what the next-closest bid was, but I am curious!  I think I bid on 3-4 more in the next couple of years, but at lower values, and didn't win any of them.  I think the winning bids are a function mostly of panel values (easy to sell), and geography first, and then the rest of the factors second.  There is a non-trivial expense to get a salvage plane delivered to a final destination!  Or you can do what Wentworth does (which I hate) and strip a gear-up airframe of avionics and then try to sell the rest on ebay wherever it died.  I bet most of those get cut-up for scrap quickly too.  I wish more would put parts into inventory like Beegles seems to do.  

If you want to out-bid a salvage yard, you better plan on tabulating full (used) retail on desirable avionics, and at least core value on engine and start from there.  I wonder when we'll get to a point where prices are up high enough on flying planes so that it will make sense to (a) not total a vintage one after a gear-up, or (b) you can make money repairing a gear-up to fly or flip.  

[Pinecone]

7 hours ago, Hank said:

Several different audible alerts have been available for the last decade or two. But isn't EGPWS more than just a replacement for the gear horn?

The MicroKit LHS system does have ground proximity sensing.

The new version (coming soon) will sense altitude and the gear switch not in the down (or gear down light not illuminated) and warn you.

[Mooneymite]

The 'M` in TBM is for Mooney.

https://www.asias.faa.gov/apex/f?p=100%3A95%3A%3A%3ANO%3A%3AP95_EVENT_LCL_DATE%2CP95_LOC_CITY_NAME%2CP95_REGIST_NBR%3A03-AUG-22%2CCARLSBAD%2CN620WG&_hsmi=222166650&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-87xYMMSNLdT5eaDnpGfCEn8IkzX1jHk5ls1Ql3UkpyltkQS6dvpbpuEt97N49LU1pV9jBAn37Nl6qyXq9oUvZRHEzhdA

[KB4]

7 hours ago, MikeOH said:

 

Theory being that a voice telling you to put the gear down is more effective than a simple warning horn.

There is no comparison.  She tells you to check the gear repeatedly and does not stop until you add power if in slow flight or lower the gear. she is meant to be annoying and plays the part well. 
It’s impossible to gear-up from pilot error with this unless you are deaf. Cheapest insurance out there at 675. 
 

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/voicegearalert.php

[Fly Boomer]

27 minutes ago, KB4 said:

It’s impossible to gear-up from pilot error with this unless you are deaf. Cheapest insurance out there at 675. 

Cool.  I'm surprised these aren't more popular.

[1980Mooney]

And 2 more Mooney's geared up....That is 5 gear-ups in 7 days.  I don't know if others find it alarming but I do.  Mooney owners really seem to have a problem.  I wonder how much our insurance would go down if gear-ups were not covered.

The latest: A 1977 M20J in Colorado Springs, N201FX.  On August 3, ADSBExchange shows it doing touch and goes. On August 5 it makes one circuit of the pattern and then bellies in.

And also a really nice 1965 M20C in College Station, N5866Q.  Registration shows it was just registered to the current new owner on July 15, 2022.  

N5866Q | 1965 MOONEY M20C on Aircraft.com

ADS-B Exchange - tracking 8763 aircraft (adsbexchange.com)

ADS-B Exchange - tracking 0 aircraft (adsbexchange.com)

Edited August 9, 2022 by 1980Mooney

[FlyWalt]

On 8/8/2022 at 7:11 AM, Mooneymite said:

Technology is the solution. 

Really???

So we need another stupid piece of gear that is stamped certified by the FAA OverLords, Installed by the Mechanical Knights of the Realm, Blessed by the Insurance Carpet Baggers witht their bags stuffed full of our money, All because a few people can't remember to do a GUMPS check and LOOK at their gear indications as they do it.

I am editing this to add, On top of the mental GUMPS check, there is this tool called, "The Paper Checklist" which I have laminated on my clipboard. That also works as a further back up. Please use it people.

Edited August 9, 2022 by FlyWalt
additional comment.

[chriscalandro]

Who cares…

[steingar]

I don't need a technological solution to keep from gearing up.  Gear comes down 3 miles from the airport always.