Navigation around weather

[M20 Ogler]

How do you prefer to pick your way through when weather gets in your way?

Went to a fly in at O28 hosted by EAA chapter 1027 (beautiful little isolated airport and great hosts). 

Going home my friends and I took slightly different routes to deal with a line small isolated cells that were developing. I saw a gap to the other side and took it. I always had my VFR cloud clearance minimums and plenty of terrain clearance. I was also on flight following and did not get any weather warnings from them. 

My friends both chose to go around the line entirely. Either way we all had a good time and a bumpy wild ride home that day. I’m just wondering what other pilots do in situations like this. 

 

[carusoam]

What info do you have on board?

ADSB in 

Strikefinder

XM satellite 

Are you and friend familiar with how aged your source of data actually is?

 

I have the combination of ADSB in and Strikefinder….

A combination of two types of data… strategic and tactical….

 

Best regards,

-a-

[M20 Ogler]

My info come fromAdsb in/out, radio, and Mark I eye ball. 

[carusoam]

14 minutes ago, M20 Ogler said:

My info come fromAdsb in/out, radio, and Mark I eye ball. 

When that stuff is imbedded in IMC….

People want to have real time strike finder info for instantaneous / where is it now kind of information…

 

If you can see the thunderstorm out the window to drive around it…. That is much safer…

Got any pics of what you saw?

East coast weather typically can have thick, wide spread, cloud coverage… with the thunderstorms hiding inside that….

The thunderstorms can appear visually when above the clag…

PP thoughts only, not a weather guy…

Best regards,

-a- 

[M20 Ogler]

I like your two types of data sources idea. I wish I had a strike finder. Not sure one would have helped me that day because I didn’t see any lightning. I’m sure an anvil shaped cloud is hazardous before the first strike. 

No pictures, I could see where the cells were at and were they were not, not an embedded type of situation. 

[carusoam]

8 minutes ago, M20 Ogler said:

I like your two types of data sources idea. I wish I had a strike finder. Not sure one would have helped me that day because I didn’t see any lightning. I’m sure an anvil shaped cloud is hazardous before the first strike. 

No pictures, I could see where the cells were at and were they were not, not an embedded type of situation. 

+1 for wind shear being dangerous…

 

Keep in mind…

Before the visible lightning occurs…. The sensors start picking up the static generated by the towering clouds….

 

More important…. There is guidance for how far away to stay from these ugly things…

Making it a real challenge to pick where to fly through….

There are some weather apps that include strength, speed, and direction of the individual storms….

Know your weight and maneuvering speed…. 

PP thoughts only,

-a-

 

[anthonydesmet]

15 hours ago, M20 Ogler said:

How do you prefer to pick your way through when weather gets in your way?

Went to a fly in at O28 hosted by EAA chapter 1027 (beautiful little isolated airport and great hosts). 

Going home my friends and I took slightly different routes to deal with a line small isolated cells that were developing. I saw a gap to the other side and took it. I always had my VFR cloud clearance minimums and plenty of terrain clearance. I was also on flight following and did not get any weather warnings from them. 

My friends both chose to go around the line entirely. Either way we all had a good time and a bumpy wild ride home that day. I’m just wondering what other pilots do in situations like this. 

 

+1 for the strikefinder also, especially if embed or at night.  Day, summer and just build ups I can see probably would have done what you did.  However one thing I would add is that on the east coast, cells are usually moving in a direction (west to east primarily) and I tend to try and get on the backside if possible so I am not trying to “outrace” any build ups down the road.  My military time on the west coast I remember things can stay kind of isolated.  Sometimes same on east coast then you do have to pick your way through it.  I am HUGE fan of VFR flight following in the summer for that reason.

[N201MKTurbo]

Those areas of rain don’t even look convective. How high were the bases of the clouds and the vis? How high were the tops? If you had the vis, you could probably fly right through them.

Edited June 23, 2022 by N201MKTurbo

[M20 Ogler]

29 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Those areas of rain don’t even look convective. How high were the bases of the clouds and the vis? How high were the tops? If you had the vis, you could probably fly right through them.

Bases were at least 6000’ I was at 5500’. Idk what tops were. Visibility was nearly unlimited except for where the rain was at. I did pull the power back to keep airspeed in the green arc just because rough air 

[ArtVandelay]

Personally I would have just done an L to get around all of it. That’s what I’ve done in the past, even flying around large storm systems. I once flew from Minnesota to Florida by way of eastern Oklahoma.

[Ragsf15e]

2 hours ago, M20 Ogler said:

Bases were at least 6000’ I was at 5500’. Idk what tops were. Visibility was nearly unlimited except for where the rain was at. I did pull the power back to keep airspeed in the green arc just because rough air 

To me it might also depend on how fast it was moving and building.  If it’s moving/building fast, ADSB becomes even worse as a tactical guide (it’s already not a tactical guide).  Mark 1 eyeball is still good but tougher with fast buildup knowing how long to get past.  Doesn’t sound like you did anything wrong.

If there was obviously buildup to high tops, anvils, lightning, then I wouldn’t get so close as you did.  Also if I was imc (embedded) I’d definitely be more cautious.

[0TreeLemur]

In situations where there are towers, but you can eyeball that they are not growing fast and no anvils, I'll ask center what their radar looks like on a particular heading.  If they say it looks like only light precip in a gap about 10 miles wide or greater, then I'll consider going through.  Their radar is real-time and they are usually happy to tell you what they see.   I find them a great resource in such situations.

[jetdriven]

On 6/23/2022 at 9:13 AM, M20 Ogler said:

Bases were at least 6000’ I was at 5500’. Idk what tops were. Visibility was nearly unlimited except for where the rain was at. I did pull the power back to keep airspeed in the green arc just because rough air 

 That is a good Midwest strategy, stay below the bases and avoid the rain shafts. Now we have storm scopes and ADSB radar, that helps you go between them better. Usually the wind is at your back when you’re approaching the line from the west, so You want to see if you have a left or right cross land and then pass on the downwind side of the gap a little bit to give your  self some room

[201er]

12 hours ago, 0TreeLemur said:

In situations where there are towers, but you can eyeball that they are not growing fast and no anvils, I'll ask center what their radar looks like on a particular heading.  If they say it looks like only light precip in a gap about 10 miles wide or greater, then I'll consider going through.  Their radar is real-time and they are usually happy to tell you what they see.   I find them a great resource in such situations.

Center usually doesn’t have real time radar. Often times they describe seeing exactly what I see on ADSB. So similar delay. It’s usually just the local approach controllers that have actual real time radar.

[N201MKTurbo]

58 minutes ago, 201er said:

Center usually doesn’t have real time radar. Often times they describe seeing exactly what I see on ADSB. So similar delay. It’s usually just the local approach controllers that have actual real time radar.

It has been quite a while since I played with a center radar. They used to have a mode where you could see the weather. Back in the day I used to ask what the weather looked like ahead and they would normally accommodate. I have had them vector me around cells before. I don’t know what capability they have now. I know when I visited the last time, they said the center radar wasn’t a very good weather radar.

[N201MKTurbo]

I just did some reading. The center radar display can currently display both real time weather and NEXRAD weather. The real time weather can be a couple of systems depending on the radar itself and may vary by sector. It can be only one level, two levels or four levels. I think most give the four level display. The NEXRAD display is essentially what you see on ForeFlight and is delayed by up to six minutes. I believe they mostly turn on the NEXRAD (WARP) display. If you ask nice, I’m sure they will turn on the real time display.

[jetdriven]

Most of your approach controllers have the single sweep radar, its real time.  As the radar dish rotates it sends it right to the scope. When they say the gap is 6 miles, wide, its exactly that.  So you can rely on that information. Center has basically the same thing you see on Foreflight. Give it more margin. Stay visual around this stuff and bail out at once when you cant.

[GeeBee]

You want to try to stay on the upwind side of convective cells. On the down wind side you often get hail shafts thrown out of or coming out of the overhangs that you can't see until hail starts dinging your airplane. Try to avoid overhangs, even with calm winds aloft, the onset of their out product can be quick and devastating to your airplane. Remember that in drier climates the net energy to get a CB going can be fairly significant, without any other intervening lifting source. In CA, the CBs often seen in the eastern Central Valley are the result of orographic lifting so not as bad as one sitting in the middle of the Mojave desert. In the southern states, you can pretty much spit on the sidewalk and get one going so the net product required is less, but nothing to trifle with in an airplane, however you can often fly closer to them than out in the drier states. I would give a Central Valley T-storm at least 15 miles girth.

If you are doing the "one peek is worth a thousand sweeps" method of avoidance, make sure that gap is going to hold because they can close up quick. I don't do gaps I know I cannot be in the clear in less than 10 minutes.

Finally if you are using NEXRAD, know your sources. While Nexrad is a composite source a very strong storm could attenuate the signal showing little weather on the other side, while the other side's coverage is dependent on a far away station and thus the stuff on the other side is not painted in its true virulence. 

[hubcap]

Yesterday I flew back to Kansas City from Colorado. We flew under some weather, we flew around some weather, we flew over some weather, and we picked up ice descending through IMC. In other words…just a typical summer day in the Midwest. 

For me personally, I have ADSB weather on board and I prefer to stay away from “red” but  it can be pretty benign, which is why I do not like to fly in IMC when the red is in front of me. I prefer to use ADSB and visual identification as well. 
 

I have never been denied a course deviation for weather, so I just pick my way through visually and with ADSB.

[Danb]

Not always easy choice added a couple hundred miles, various choices, 

 

[Danb]

This is direct some 250 miles excursion 

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, Danb said:

Not always easy choice added a couple hundred miles, various choices, 

 

Lol...that makes it look like you diverted to maximize your time inside the front.

[Marc_B]

@Danb How fast was that line moving?  If it was fairly fast moving, what about landing and having a cup of coffee to let it pass?  Always curious what you saw and timing decisions that lead to a drastic reroute being the better choice.

What did you look at to decide that no where along that line was passable?  Did what you saw out your window mirror what you expected from preflight/wx reports on display?

[Mooney Dog]

Asked for a reroute in the air, just watched weather from both the garmin and ipad, figured that everything is on a 5-10 minute delay so look at the speed its been moving and plan accordingly. Then as i got closer use the good old eyeballs 3000 and in this case there was nothing at 10,000 feet so it wasnt a problem at all. 

 

Typically green ill go through. Yellow i start to avoid. Red is hard no go for me. Getting a little rain every now and then is fun though, gives the plane a good wash. 

[Danb]

7 hours ago, Marc_B said:

@Danb How fast was that line moving?  If it was fairly fast moving, what about landing and having a cup of coffee to let it pass?  Always curious what you saw and timing decisions that lead to a drastic reroute being the better choice.

What did you look at to decide that no where along that line was passable?  Did what you saw out your window mirror what you expected from preflight/wx reports on display?

Problem was I got delayed at kilg for the TFR to clear which put me in the afternoon.

My first deviation was a decision the controller said going to the right there was a gap a few miles wide and going west I’d have about 30 miles then the line opened up, this didn’t occur, the clouds were rising fast and developing quickly. After a few hand offs I was toldI could get over at 13000, ok put on O2and go. After reaching altitude I began to pick up mixed ice quickly turned south descending then westerly. Each decision appeared plausible but failed, being a conservative older guy my decisions continued stayed rather safe. I lost an hour I’d have been on the ground longer than that, we arrived safe and sound. The point being weather changes quickly in the summer stay attuned as much as possible. what would I do different looking back. Depart at 15-17000 Don my mask and go direct with out many if any issues. My wife doesn’t like oxygen which was apart of the decision, she’d wear it if I let her know it’s the only way.