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Garmin Databases vs. Jeppesen Databases (looking for advice)


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Hello all,

Looking for some advice please.

I currently use Jeppesen to keep my databases updated on my GNS 530W and my GNC355 (I had to start with them because orignally the plane had a GNC300XL and Garmin did not support the database for it anymore).  I was thinking about switching over to Garmin and getting away from Jeppesen for the sole reason that with the Garmin updates I also would get the obstacle updates (not that important to have all the time) and the Safe Taxi updates (7/year).  Garmin is a little more expensive because of the addition of the Safe Taxi and the obstacle databases but if I continue with the Jeppesen and just purchase single updates of the obstacles and safe taxi as I feel inclined to then I actually will spend a little more with Jeppesen.

One concern is that I have never had an issue with the databases with Jeppesen.  They have always downloaded fine, with no errors and no issues.  I have read some on this forum having issues with the Garmin databases hanging up or stopping mid download.  Is this very much of an issue (for those that use Garmin for their database updates)?  

And just for price comparison, I pay $706/year for Jeppesen which includes all navigation data and approach plates for both the 530 and the 355.  To get the equivalent with Garmin I would have to pay $819.  The difference is if I add on, let's say one individual update of the obstacles and Safe Taxi to my Jeppesen then that will boost the cost up to $811 not including tax.  I get those two things throughout the year for the $819 with Garmin.  So, price wise it may be worth switching.  Just want to know of anyone's experience with downloading issues from Garmin or any other issues you have experienced.  And just to add, I do not download direct to the units in the airplane.  I download them onto the data cards at home and take them to the airplane.  This may reduce download issues as well.

Thanks. 

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And just to add, I tried a search for this information on this forum and if you type in Garmin or Jeppesen, no matter what else you type in you get about 700 references to it.  Just does not want to narrow down.

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I use Garmin for my G1000. I used Jeppesen for my GNS 430 in my old airplane. Never had a problem with either. Garmin recently update their site and made it better. Now you can download to your local machine and its there. This is an improvement if you "double download" like I do and carry a spare set of cards with you. Before it took just as long to down load the second copy as the first. Now after doing the first, the data is on your local machine and it takes just seconds for the second.

 

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9 hours ago, Greg Ellis said:

I was thinking about switching over to Garmin and getting away from Jeppesen for the sole reason that with the Garmin updates I also would get the obstacle updates (not that important to have all the time) and the Safe Taxi updates (7/year).

I've had Jeppesen's JDM (Download Manager) for the last several years, and they also supply SafeTaxi and Obstacles...this isn't unique just to Garmin.  I have the Full-USA Jepp subscription, along with the 750Xi and G500TXi both Jepp-unlocked, and as you indicated, the pricing through Jeppesen has been historically lower than Garmin.  I've been loyal to Jeppesen for this reason, and because they're the airline standard.

8 hours ago, GeeBee said:

I use Garmin for my G1000. I used Jeppesen for my GNS 430 in my old airplane. Never had a problem with either. Garmin recently update their site and made it better. Now you can download to your local machine and its there. This is an improvement if you "double download" like I do and carry a spare set of cards with you. Before it took just as long to down load the second copy as the first. Now after doing the first, the data is on your local machine and it takes just seconds for the second.

 

JDM has this capability as well...where you can "double-download" without having to call them to "reset" your downloads after every instance.  It was a PITA to have to call them constantly for a reset just to get a second set of cards (which I also do), but they fixed that issue.

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1 minute ago, StevenL757 said:

I've had Jeppesen's JDM (Download Manager) for the last several years, and they also supply SafeTaxi and Obstacles...this isn't unique just to Garmin.  I have the Full-USA Jepp subscription, along with the 750Xi and G500TXi both Jepp-unlocked, and as you indicated, the pricing through Jeppesen has been historically lower than Garmin.  I've been loyal to Jeppesen for this reason, and because they're the airline standard.

 

I will have to talk to Jeppesen about this.  My subscription does not have Safe Taxi or obstacles.  In fact, both are currently expired with my units and I update them when I feel like it from individual downloads from Garmin.

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I would suggest it.  Those two services are bundled in with my NAV, Jepp charts, Terrain, and the other services, so my guess is (based on previous interactions with Jeppesen) although you *might* pay a higher price for adding those two services if you don't already have them, there may be some savings by bundling them into your existing services and doing everything through Jeppesen/Boeing.

I've always experienced great customer support and services through them, so am curious if you find things the same.  Let us know how you get on.

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I use Garmin for my gns430w in the Mooney and in the g1000 Piper I fly at work.  It works great and saved a little money.  Not much, but depending on your database choices, a little.  I’ve never had a problem with the interface on 2 different PC computers.  
 

In the g1000, i use a pilotpak which bundles much of the stuff you want (safetaxi, navdata, etc).  In the Mooney, I just buy the US navdata.  When I switched, Garmin US NAVDATA was the same price as jepp western US.

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I also use Jeppesen for my 430W updates and have not had any issues with my subscription and Jeppesen Download Manager (JDM). I've done offline transfers too where I downloaded the upcoming cycle to my Macbook then took it to the airport to transfer to the card offline, super easy.

I was curious on terrain & obstacles - do you use an EFB like ForeFlight? I find I rarely use those 2 on my GPS since ForeFlight keeps them up-to-date for me and has better terrain & obstacle alerts & visualisations anyways, just my personal preference. 

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24 minutes ago, Alex M said:

I also use Jeppesen for my 430W updates and have not had any issues with my subscription and Jeppesen Download Manager (JDM). I've done offline transfers too where I downloaded the upcoming cycle to my Macbook then took it to the airport to transfer to the card offline, super easy.

I was curious on terrain & obstacles - do you use an EFB like ForeFlight? I find I rarely use those 2 on my GPS since ForeFlight keeps them up-to-date for me and has better terrain & obstacle alerts & visualisations anyways, just my personal preference. 

I use Garmin Pilot.  The terrain is updated with it as well.  One reason I do not buy the terrain database updates from Garmin for the 530 and 355.

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1 hour ago, Greg Ellis said:

I use Garmin Pilot.  The terrain is updated with it as well.  One reason I do not buy the terrain database updates from Garmin for the 530 and 355.

Also a reason to skimp on safetaxi.  GP or Foreflight have more readable taxi charts (imo) and also geo reference.  I usually stop the airplane and reference FF if taxiing at an unfamiliar field.  Safetaxi is a little more difficult to get a clear picture of my taxi route for me.

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2 hours ago, Alex M said:

I also use Jeppesen for my 430W updates and have not had any issues with my subscription and Jeppesen Download Manager (JDM). I've done offline transfers too where I downloaded the upcoming cycle to my Macbook then took it to the airport to transfer to the card offline, super easy.

I was curious on terrain & obstacles - do you use an EFB like ForeFlight? I find I rarely use those 2 on my GPS since ForeFlight keeps them up-to-date for me and has better terrain & obstacle alerts & visualisations anyways, just my personal preference. 

Another reason is that the terrain rarely (if ever) changes and obstacles rarely.  It’s nice to have them in there because even the lowly gns430w will provide a terrain or obstacle alert, but the data doesn’t change as much (unless you’re unlucky enough to hit that brand new 2000’ tower that was just charted).

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I've had great luck with using Jepp for the last 15 years.  I download to JDM and can make as many cards as I like.  I primarily use JDM on my iPhone with a Bad Elf Wombat which allows me to write the data to the cards from my iPhone.  This is much more convenient for me than bringing out my laptop to do the updates as I always have my phone with me anyway.  Can also be done from the iPad I use for GP.

 

Edit: The Bad Elf Wombat only supports SD cards so it works with my two GTN Xi units and my TXi, won't work with a GNS unit.

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So, I just had a talk with Jeppesen.  My current subscription with them is $706.  That is for the navigation and approach charts for a GNS 530W and a GNC355.  I asked them about adding obstacles and safe taxi.  Because of the type of bundle I have they cannot add it directly to my bundle.  They can either add it as a separate subscription or dissolve my bundle and start with a fresh subscription which includes the safe taxi and obstacles.  The cost of doing either was a lot more than Garmin.  Garmin with navigation database, approach charts and safe taxi and obstacles was $811.  If I add the options to my Jeppesen it increases my annual rate from $706 to $1156.  It is $450 to add the obstacles and the Safe Taxi to Jeppesen!!!  If I dissolve my bundle and put everything together in one bundle it is even more expensive than that.  So, it looks like if I want Safe Taxi and obstacles then I would go with Garmin alone.

The rep from Jeppesen said that they are changing their prices in July and that the cost would be coming down.  I was shocked to hear that someone is actually lowering their costs on anything in aviation.  I will believe it if and when I see it.

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7 hours ago, Greg Ellis said:

Garmin databases hanging up or stopping mid download. 

Now i cant speak for the 530, but on my 375 downloads and installs to the SD card take a minute max and i have never had a problem with it, even when i tethered off my phone to get an update. 

 

I dont worry about things like safe taxi due to the fact i always have my ipad with me an i have taxi on there with georef. 

 

Overall i get my updates from garmin cause when i last checked, it was cheaper for just the navdata than jepp and it still has all the same points/fixes. 

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7 minutes ago, Mooney Dog said:

Now i cant speak for the 530, but on my 375 downloads and installs to the SD card take a minute max and i have never had a problem with it, even when i tethered off my phone to get an update. 

 

I dont worry about things like safe taxi due to the fact i always have my ipad with me an i have taxi on there with georef. 

 

Overall i get my updates from garmin cause when i last checked, it was cheaper for just the navdata than jepp and it still has all the same points/fixes. 

The prices go up when you are bundling more than one GPS together.  For instance, Jeppesen is cheaper than Garmin for a 530 and 355 bundled together ($706 for Jep versus $810 for Garmin) if you do not care about Safe Taxi and obstacle updates.  If you do want Safe Taxi and obstacle updates then the roles are reversed and Jeppesen is more expensive than Garmin (Garmin is still $810 where Jep goes up to $1156; just learned this from a talk with Jeppesen today).

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33 minutes ago, Greg Ellis said:

The prices go up when you are bundling more than one GPS together.  For instance, Jeppesen is cheaper than Garmin for a 530 and 355 bundled together ($706 for Jep versus $810 for Garmin) if you do not care about Safe Taxi and obstacle updates.  If you do want Safe Taxi and obstacle updates then the roles are reversed and Jeppesen is more expensive than Garmin (Garmin is still $810 where Jep goes up to $1156; just learned this from a talk with Jeppesen today).

Do you use the approach charts on your 530?  It’s all personal preference, but I prefer my ipad, so I don’t have them even on my work airplane which I don’t pay for.

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45 minutes ago, Greg Ellis said:

The prices go up when you are bundling more than one GPS together.  For instance, Jeppesen is cheaper than Garmin for a 530 and 355 bundled together ($706 for Jep versus $810 for Garmin) if you do not care about Safe Taxi and obstacle updates.  If you do want Safe Taxi and obstacle updates then the roles are reversed and Jeppesen is more expensive than Garmin (Garmin is still $810 where Jep goes up to $1156; just learned this from a talk with Jeppesen today).

That's interesting as I have all the Jepp databases (charts, navdata, obstacles, airport directory, safe taxi and terrain) for two GTNs and a TXi and it is less than $1156, my last renewal was $990.  Not sure why this would be more for a 530 and 355.

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17 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

Do you use the approach charts on your 530?

Wait can a 530 show approach plates? 

 

53 minutes ago, Greg Ellis said:

The prices go up when you are bundling more than one GPS together.

oh for sure, id just do whatever is cheaper for pure navdata though. 

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1 hour ago, Greg Ellis said:

The rep from Jeppesen said that they are changing their prices in July and that the cost would be coming down.  I was shocked to hear that someone is actually lowering their costs on anything in aviation.  I will believe it if and when I see it.

As others have mentioned, a lot of this functionality is available in EFBs, many of which get updates for free using the gov releases.    The value-add proposition from Jepp or Garmin is diminishing, and I think already getting difficult to justify the costs, so I expect the prices to continue to decrease until/unless they come up with some other big value-add that makes it worthwhile for people.

If Avidyne or somebody got their navigators certified to work and do approaches on the gov releases, then there'd be no value at all (for GA, that I can think of) in Garmin or Jepp subs.    Obviously Garmin isn't interested in this because it's a revenue stream for them, and Avidyne isn't particularly motivated because it would involve a lot of effort and not change their revenue picture.

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14 minutes ago, EricJ said:

If Avidyne or somebody got their navigators certified to work and do approaches on the gov releases,

How could that be? The digital government charts don't include any geo-referencing data, just a PDF chart. The various vendors add geo-referencing data for each chart.

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3 minutes ago, kortopates said:

How could that be? The digital government charts don't include any geo-referencing data, just a PDF chart. The various vendors add geo-referencing data for each chart.

I don't think that's true, or at least it's so easily done that the free EFBs like Avare, FltPln Go, all successfully geo-reference the gov VFR and IFR charts and approach plates and airport diagrams without charging anything for it.   Some things I've read on the Avare support sites indicate that they don't do the work to geo-reference, just to manage the display.

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3 minutes ago, EricJ said:

I don't think that's true, or at least it's so easily done that the free EFBs like Avare, FltPln Go, all successfully geo-reference the gov VFR and IFR charts and approach plates without charging anything for it.   Some things I've read on the Avare support sites indicate that they don't do the work to geo-reference, just to manage the display.

I believe FltPlan Go is geo referencing their charts and for free as you point out and as there literature claims. I have never tried Avare. But I have to question how an app could do this on the fly so to speak with only the basic printed material found in the PDF for input. The government charts have no georeferencing data on the edge of the Map area. All they have is a lat long at the bottom of the plate which is for the runway or airport. Which is of little use to solving this because it isn't located in the middle of the chart either but can be anywhere on it. So that's not of any help. Avare must be geo referencing them like everyone else. Actually their website claims they do: "13000+ GeoReferenced approach plates and taxi diagrams." 

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30 minutes ago, kortopates said:

I believe FltPlan Go is geo referencing their charts and for free as you point out and as there literature claims. I have never tried Avare. But I have to question how an app could do this on the fly so to speak with only the basic printed material found in the PDF for input. The government charts have no georeferencing data on the edge of the Map area. All they have is a lat long at the bottom of the plate which is for the runway or airport. Which is of little use to solving this because it isn't located in the middle of the chart either but can be anywhere on it. So that's not of any help. Avare must be geo referencing them like everyone else. Actually their website claims they do: "13000+ GeoReferenced approach plates and taxi diagrams." 

Yes, Avare provides the georeferencing function in the app for the display, but my understanding is that the information is in the gov database, i.e., assuming I've understood correctly, Avare doesn't add that, it's already in the database.    It may not be in a pdf chart that somebody downloads, but evidently it's in the database.

This indicates that the FAA provides geo-referenced data in the database.   Garmin or Jepp aren't needed to provide that.

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/digital_products/vfr/

IFR charts are also geo-TIFF as they come from the FAA:

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/digital_products/ifr/

My (limited) understanding for a while has been that the basic value-add of Garmin or Jepp for their subscriptions is some data checking on charts and approach plates, mostly to assure that they sync with the navigators, with the primary concern being for approaches.   Checking that waypoints, etc., are handled properly is a good thing, but I've been suspicious of the actual amount of work involved for a while.    It appears that the value of that function is diminishing, so as expected, their cost has to come down.

Last weekend, just to see how well it would work, I flew the GPS-11 approach into Winslow just from the geo-referenced approach plate on Avare.   In other words, if I completely lost the navigator/radios but I still had a functional altimeter and AI and EFB, how well could I fly the approach?   It turned out way better than expectations.   The approach has a long DME arc, which is actually pretty easy to fly off the EFB.   I started a 500 ft/min descent from the end of the arc, making sure I crossed the VOR (just by referencing the location on the plate on the EFB) at 6200 ft, and then continued a 500 ft/min descent from there, keeping on the lateral track just using the EFB and stopping descent at MDA.   Totally do-able in a pinch and would have put me in an easy position to land.    So apparently the gov approach plates in Avare are very nicely geo-refernced, and I don't think they're putting any effort into massaging the data.   

Edited by EricJ
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27 minutes ago, EricJ said:

Yes, Avare provides the georeferencing function in the app for the display, but my understanding is that the information is in the gov database, i.e., assuming I've understood correctly, Avare doesn't add that, it's already in the database.    It may not be in a pdf chart that somebody downloads, but evidently it's in the database.

This indicates that the FAA provides geo-referenced data in the database.   Garmin or Jepp aren't needed to provide that.

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/digital_products/vfr/

IFR charts are also geo-TIFF as they come from the FAA:

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/digital_products/ifr/

My (limited) understanding for a while has been that the basic value-add of Garmin or Jepp for their subscriptions is some data checking on charts and approach plates, mostly to assure that they sync with the navigators, with the primary concern being for approaches.   Checking that waypoints, etc., are handled properly is a good thing, but I've been suspicious of the actual amount of work involved for a while.    It appears that the value of that function is diminishing, so as expected, their cost has to come down.

Last weekend, just to see how well it would work, I flew the GPS-11 approach into Winslow just from the geo-referenced approach plate on Avare.   In other words, if I completely lost the navigator/radios but I still had a functional altimeter and AI and EFB, how well could I fly the approach?   It turned out way better than expectations.   The approach has a long DME arc, which is actually pretty easy to fly off the EFB.   I started a 500 ft/min descent from the end of the arc, making sure I crossed the VOR (just by referencing the location on the plate on the EFB) at 6200 ft, and then continued a 500 ft/min descent from there, keeping on the lateral track just using the EFB and stopping descent at MDA.   Totally do-able in a pinch and would have put me in an easy position to land.    So apparently the gov approach plates in Avare are very nicely geo-refernced, and I don't think they're putting any effort into massaging the data.   

Thanks for that Eric, obviously I didn't know the FAA was now providing Geo-referenced TIFF files. For sure, vendors or manufacturers that have adopted that standard can use the government provided charts pretty much as is. Perhaps that's exactly what Avare is using then; what you read apparently suggest that. I wonder about Garmin. Garmin first supported Jepps' format which of course is different along with different content. But it begs the question if when Garmin started supporting government charts if was in this new government provided TIFF format. Since they didn't start supporting it till fairly recently with the GTN's its very possible and only makes sense. 

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