More Garmin database update questions

[David M20J]

probably a common question but could not find an answer here.  I did acquire a new plane a few weeks ago and it is my first plane ive owned.  it has a GNX 375 and I would like to keep the database updated, majority of my flying would be VFR but IFR if I had to and conditions permitted.

 

1) do I really need to spend like 500-1000$ /yr for a sub to keep this thing updated

2) are there ways around this? specifically for IFR

3a) If I stick VFR is there a recommendation on how often to update, IF you can do 1 time updates (which I think I saw you can)

3b) is this not wise?

 

Thanks

[David M20J]

probably going to be asked so I should add

Single GPS - GNX 375

2 GI 275s(1 AI, 1 HSI, HSI is backup AI)

2 iPdads with a Sentry stuck to the window

have backup gryo CDI

[carusoam]

There are many ways to handle this…

1) You need current charts to navigate with…

2) VFR, it’s easy to use an iPad with a low cost subscription near 0.1 amu…

3) IFR, you can navigate using the VORs, Victor highways… using an older version of a data base to support your primary nav…

4) Back in the day… people would manually update the way points they were going to use…

5) There are so many benefits to flying direct with an updated GPS… if you fly a lot… it is worth it…

 

Fly often… in the system… go direct… figure out the best way for you to be up to date…

PP thoughts only, not a CFI….

-a-

[ArtVandelay]

If traveling you need current charts. There’s always something that changes. I let my subscription expire if not traveling and flying locally VFR, but otherwise I want to be up to date.

Last thing I want if flying IFR or away from home is wondering if my charts are correct.

With Garmin packages your cost should be about $600, and that includes the upgrade to Garmin Pilot (to IFR subscription).

If dropping $600 plus $75 for GP once a year for databases is a problem, you shouldn’t bought an airplane.

[David Lloyd]

Call Garmin, get the bundle pricing for the 375, 275s and iPad with Garmin Pilot. Updates automatically to the iPad and then wireless to the 275s and the 375.  You will have it all; the charts, databases, approaches, SIDS, STARS, everything. If you take a trip to CA or Oshkosh you don't have to worry, you have all the stuff you need for less than $700.  Or you could save a few hundred and be left scrambling every time you want to go somewhere.

[David M20J]

I have 2 EFBs i keep updated with foreflight

8 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

If dropping $600 plus $75 for GP once a year for databases is a problem, you shouldn’t bought an airplane.

Im not worried about dropping $700/yr if I have to but dont want to be just throwing money in the trash if I dont have to

6 hours ago, David Lloyd said:

Call Garmin, get the bundle pricing for the 375, 275s and iPad with Garmin Pilot. Updates automatically to the iPad and then wireless to the 275s and the 375.  You will have it all; the charts, databases, approaches, SIDS, STARS, everything. If you take a trip to CA or Oshkosh you don't have to worry, you have all the stuff you need for less than $700.  Or you could save a few hundred and be left scrambling every time you want to go somewhere.

thanks I'll give them a call and see what I can get.  Though I've been using Foreflight for about 8 years and have never tried Garmin pilot

[65eTurbo]

1 hour ago, JohnZ said:

You don’t need a current navigation database for legally navigating under IFR, so long as you verify that the points along your route of flight are accurate. Flying GPS approaches is a little more in the grey area and I cannot recall exactly what the rule is for that, but best practice would be to have it updated for approaches. 
 

Airports, VORs, etc. don’t move. I believe that is why it’s still legal to use an out of date WAAS GPS as sole means of navigation under IFR (I.e. flying direct from KABC to KXYZ those airports won’t ever change their coordinates regardless of chart updates)

I think you can shoot an approach if the database update is after the update date for the approach plate.

[StevenL757]

12 hours ago, David M20J said:

probably a common question but could not find an answer here.  I did acquire a new plane a few weeks ago and it is my first plane ive owned.  it has a GNX 375 and I would like to keep the database updated, majority of my flying would be VFR but IFR if I had to and conditions permitted.

1) do I really need to spend like 500-1000$ /yr for a sub to keep this thing updated

2) are there ways around this? specifically for IFR

3a) If I stick VFR is there a recommendation on how often to update, IF you can do 1 time updates (which I think I saw you can)

3b) is this not wise?

1 hour ago, JohnZ said:

You don’t need a current navigation database for legally navigating under IFR, so long as you verify that the points along your route of flight are accurate. Flying GPS approaches is a little more in the grey area and I cannot recall exactly what the rule is for that, but best practice would be to have it updated for approaches.

31 minutes ago, 65eTurbo said:

I think you can shoot an approach if the database update is after the update date for the approach plate.

Airports, VORs, etc. don’t move. I believe that is why it’s still legal to use an out of date WAAS GPS as sole means of navigation under IFR (I.e. flying direct from KABC to KXYZ those airports won’t ever change their coordinates regardless of chart updates)

 

Although it is technically legal to fly with expired enroute and terminal charts, approaches are a different story.  We all understand that “terrain and airports don’t move”, but keeping current charts isn’t solely about this.  It’s about maintaining a current database of not only airport diagrams and obstacles (where new ones can be built without previous notice), but taxiway intersection hotspots, frequency changes, approach procedure changes, adjusted minimums, new/deleted fixes, and other elements.

If you’re an IFR pilot and can’t maintain this minimal level of compliance to keeping current, legal approach charts in your airplane when performing these operations, you should probably reconsider your mission and overall commitment to safety.

[FlySafe]

13 hours ago, David M20J said:

probably a common question but could not find an answer here.  I did acquire a new plane a few weeks ago and it is my first plane ive owned.  it has a GNX 375 and I would like to keep the database updated, majority of my flying would be VFR but IFR if I had to and conditions permitted.

 

1) do I really need to spend like 500-1000$ /yr for a sub to keep this thing updated

2) are there ways around this? specifically for IFR

3a) If I stick VFR is there a recommendation on how often to update, IF you can do 1 time updates (which I think I saw you can)

3b) is this not wise?

 

Thanks

Hi David, some more info from the faa on this (https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/faq/#q8c). for ifr always best to use currnt charts and databases, be safe and have fun. k

"What is the database currency requirement needed for VFR or IFR flight?

AIM 1-1-19b3(b) Database Currency (1) In many receivers, an up-datable database is used for navigation fixes, airports and instrument procedures. These databases must be maintained to the current update for IFR operations, but no such requirement exists for VFR use. (2) However,...

AIM 1-1-19f1(b) Equipment and Database Requirements - For IFR Operations "All approach procedures to be flown must be retrievable from the current airborne navigation database..."

AC 90-100, U.S. TERMINAL AND EN ROUTE AREA NAVIGATION (RNAV) OPERATIONS, paragraph 8a(3): The onboard navigation data must be current and appropriate for the region of intended operation and must include the navigation aids, waypoints, and relevant coded terminal airspace procedures for the departure, arrival, and alternate airfields.

Navigation databases are expected to be current for the duration of the flight. If the AIRAC cycle will change during flight, operators and pilots should establish procedures to ensure the accuracy of navigation data, including suitability of navigation facilities used to define the routes and procedures for flight. Traditionally, this has been accomplished by verifying electronic data against paper products. One acceptable means is to compare aeronautical charts (new and old) to verify navigation fixes prior to dispatch. If an amended chart is published for the procedure, the database must not be used to conduct the operation."

Published instrument procedures and routes are incorporated by reference into 14 CFR Part 95 and 14 CFR Part 97, are "law." They are "effective" only during the AIRAC cycle dates specified on the enroute chart/TPP covers or on the side of the chart when printed from the digital-TPP. If you are using a published procedure before or after the dates specified on the chart under IFR, you are technically in violation of the law."

[David M20J]

I didn't mean for this to turn into a lecture/debate of maintaining current charts, plates, A/FD, etc....  I carry 2 EFBs I keep up to date.  I was asking just about the GPS database.  I know I do not need an updated GPS database for VFR and technically only if I plan to fly GPS waypoints and approaches would I need it updated for IFR.

Maybe I should have been more specific, like if I only plan to fly IFR a couple times a year, just maintain currency.  is a bundle worth it, with a small screen on the GNX375 is safetaxi worth it or is that something suited more for like a 750 to a g1000.  

[FlySafe]

David, good questions, as you know it’s all about the risk cost benefit ratio.  In a perfect world, yes you would keep the database updated even if only flying ifr a few time a yr. however, in your case only minimal risk not having a current approach database since only needed rarely but then again the cost or severity if needed could be high, you are in the best position to decide. the safetaxi is very helpful at larger airports even on a 2" 375 screen.  The iPad does a good job as well so again it’s a matter of what you feel most comfortable with. Key point is to  have something that is current that can display location to help you maintain situation awareness on the ground and in the air. Take care

[midlifeflyer]

VFR only, with current data and charts in your EFB, your panel GPS is irrelevant.

Unless, of course, you end up using it and have a deviation as a result of something being out of date and incorrect.

Its just a rehash of the ancient discussion about whether charts are required at all. 

[kortopates]

22 minutes ago, David M20J said:

I didn't mean for this to turn into a lecture/debate of maintaining current charts, plates, A/FD, etc....  I carry 2 EFBs I keep up to date.  I was asking just about the GPS database.  I know I do not need an updated GPS database for VFR and technically only if I plan to fly GPS waypoints and approaches would I need it updated for IFR.

Maybe I should have been more specific, like if I only plan to fly IFR a couple times a year, just maintain currency.  is a bundle worth it, with a small screen on the GNX375 is safetaxi worth it or is that something suited more for like a 750 to a g1000.  

Yep, all correct and to be specific, its only the Nav database that needs to be upto date to fly RNAV approaches, Other databases like Safe Taxi, obstacles have no legal currency requirement. But of course it would be nuts to rely on out of date databases but you are equipped to get that info off your EFB's.

Many good references quoted about the legalities of what you can do with an expired database with regards to enroute and procedures - but just wanted to point out that your Garmin AFMS in your POH trumps the AIM and AC and is also more restrictive than noted. 

All the database currency talk aside, I would be much more concerned though about the statement "I only plan to fly IFR a couple times a year, just maintain currency." I hope that doesn't mean to imply one can maintain instrument proficiency by flying IFR a only couple times a year! We see lots of fatal accidents involving pilots that weren't instrument current that bet their life thinking they could pull off an IMC approach and lost. Although of course one can maintain currency flying VFR practice approaches with a safety pilot or CFI, but I still don't see how one is going to do that without a current database. Limit currency flight to VOR/ILS? Maintaining GPS Buttonology is a big part of instrument proficiency. Maintaining instrument proficiency to fly IMC approaches requires monthly practice, if not weekly practice.  

[PeteMc]

I was just about to say what @midlifeflyer said...  If you're truly VFR, then you can get an update for the 375 once a year or every couple of years.  Your choice.

But you will need to have a subscription for you ForeFlight or Garmin Pilot App to make sure the Sectionals are current.  ALSO, the info in the iPad will be the Go-To to confirm frequencies, etc.  Even though they're in the 375's DB, they could easily change at any time.  So that's were the "current" EFB comes in.

Now if you are considering any IFR, then you really don't have a choice but to get a subscription.  As soon as you decide to take that spring trip and get and update and then a summer trip and get an update and then a fall trip before the winter Wx hits, you've already spent way extra.  So you should look at the Bundle for the GTX375 and GI275.  I you do use G Pilot you can update through that.  But I think it may be quick to just swap out the SD Card in 375 and that will update both the 375 and 275.  (You take the old card home and update it when the next update is available and just swap the cards again.)

 

[David M20J]

Thank you all for the good info and insights, while I am a professional pilot, I am a brand new plane owner of like a couple weeks.  Just trying to gather as much information as I can

9 minutes ago, kortopates said:

 

All the database currency talk aside, I would be much more concerned though about the statement "I only plan to fly IFR a couple times a year, just maintain currency." I hope that doesn't mean to imply one can maintain instrument proficiency by flying IFR a only couple times a year! We see lots of fatal accidents involving pilots that weren't instrument current that bet their life thinking they could pull off an IMC approach and lost. Although of course one can maintain currency flying VFR practice approaches with a safety pilot or CFI, but I still don't see how one is going to do that without a current database. Limit currency flight to VOR/ILS? Maintaining GPS Buttonology is a big part of instrument proficiency. Maintaining instrument proficiency to fly IMC approaches requires monthly practice, if not weekly practice.  

 

very good point, I didn't mean only fly a couple times a year, just fly IFR a couple times a year while flying mostly VFR.  I'm a Helicopter air ambulance pilot flying single pilot VFR and we practice IIMC procedures all the time.  I was merely saying fly enough to not have to do an IPC all the time.  Im also a current helicopter CFII

[ArtVandelay]

You don’t need a current navigation database for legally navigating under IFR, so long as you verify that the points along your route of flight are accurate. Flying GPS approaches is a little more in the grey area and I cannot recall exactly what the rule is for that, but best practice would be to have it updated for approaches. 
 
Airports, VORs, etc. don’t move. I believe that is why it’s still legal to use an out of date WAAS GPS as sole means of navigation under IFR (I.e. flying direct from KABC to KXYZ those airports won’t ever change their coordinates regardless of chart updates)

Problem is you’re likely to get rerouted, so verifying points on your plan route won’t help.

[gacoon]

8 hours ago, JohnZ said:

You don’t need a current navigation database for legally navigating under IFR, so long as you verify that the points along your route of flight are accurate. Flying GPS approaches is a little more in the grey area and I cannot recall exactly what the rule is for that, but best practice would be to have it updated for approaches. 
 

Airports, VORs, etc. don’t move. I believe that is why it’s still legal to use an out of date WAAS GPS as sole means of navigation under IFR (I.e. flying direct from KABC to KXYZ those airports won’t ever change their coordinates regardless of chart updates)

Then why does the garmin flight supplement in the poh say it has to be up to date?

[kortopates]

it’s technically not legal to fly approaches with an out of date Garmin nav database and never has been. See your Garmin AFMS. Your right though, it hasn’t changed.

You can fly enroute if you verify waypoints are still valid, but not RNAV approaches. But have you ever tried to verify enroute waypoints against your ipad when manually flying in IMC? lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[David M20J]

41 minutes ago, JohnZ said:

@kortopates agreed - I don’t definitively know what the rule is for approaches but using GPS for en route navigation is legal. Speaking to the OP’s post (to try to keep it on topic)… purchasing a Garmin database to stay up to date… is a good idea. In terms of airplane ownership, call databases a drop in the bucket. Personally, I keep approach plates and databases current for the G3X, nav, terrain, obstacle current for GTN. This costs about .85AMU/yr (IIRC) and I’m happy to do it. But I also fly under IFR all of the time. His mission may vary… Good luck Dave, and congrats on the new plane 

Thanks John, yeah it definitely seems varied for the mission (VFR vs IFR vs rate).  Ive seen people keep using .AMU for pricing things, what does that mean?

[carusoam]

Special case For David…   Summary-ish…

1) Pilot has all of the skills of an IFR pilot…

2) lives in an area that is VMC most of the time…

3) where flight following has most of the benefits of being in communication with ATC…

4) up to this point using the iPad with current charts makes a lot of sense…

 

5) once things get complicated by flying in the system…  IFR…

6) Solely navigating via gps… (possible to keep some waypoints manually updated, but not all…)  you can always terminate IFR services… go VFR…

7) Once flying in IMC begins… things get more complex, rapidly…

8) Any change of route… the GPS won’t have the updated waypoints

9) Selecting one of several approaches … are they all updated?

 

10) how do you feel about using VOR and ILS based approaches?

 

11) If the ambition is to fly using GPS waypoints and approaches…. The expensive gps charts is the way to go…

12) If the ambition is to save on the GPS charts VOR and ILS is the way to go…

 

13) Flying multiple machines…with multiple GPSi per machine…  it would be incredibly difficult to keep up with variations such as what box has been updated to what level…

How does anyone do that?

PP thoughts only, not IFR current today…

Best regards,

-a-

 

[midlifeflyer]

7 hours ago, JohnZ said:

@kortopates agreed - I don’t definitively know what the rule is for approaches but using GPS for en route navigation is legal. 

As @kortopates indicates. The "rule" is the more restrictive of the AIM guidance and the limitations in your AFMS. 

The AIM guidance is based on the FAR 1.1 definition of "suitable RNAV system."

The limitations in your AFMS is pure 91.9(a).

So, it depends what you have. Enroute if verified with current data (which sort of begs the question) is legal with a GTN because it says so:

GPS/SBAS based IFR enroute, oceanic, and terminal navigation is prohibited unless the flight crew verifies and uses a valid, compatible, and current navigation database or verifies each waypoint for accuracy by reference to current approved data.  

But if you have an IFD...

GPS/SBAS based IFR enroute, oceanic, and terminal navigation is prohibited unless current Navigation and Procedure databases are installed.