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Would you buy a TKS equipped plane, if you are VFR only


charheep

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I am working towards my IR, but I see this J model near me.  Checks all the boxes, but has TKS.  If I never intentionally fly through clouds for the next 4 years (as an example), does having it and not needing TKS hurt me financially?  Like are annuals more, maintenance increased, and/or insurance higher for having that system in place? Or is it minimal cost for something that would helpful when I have my IR and do encounter icing?

 

http://aircraftownershipsolutions.com/inventory/1986+mooney+m20j+201+n5813f/938

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I probably wouldn’t if you are VFR only and plan to stay that way. With TKS, you typically lose a significant amount of useful load and is just another system to maintain. That being said, I have it on my J and really like having it. TKS in a J model is not FIKi certified but it does give a little peace of mind and a bit more time to get out of an icing situation.


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9 minutes ago, charheep said:

I am working towards my IR, but I see this J model near me.  Checks all the boxes, but has TKS.  If I never intentionally fly through clouds for the next 4 years (as an example), does having it and not needing TKS hurt me financially?  Like are annuals more, maintenance increased, and/or insurance higher for having that system in place? Or is it minimal cost for something that would helpful when I have my IR and do encounter icing?

http://aircraftownershipsolutions.com/inventory/1986+mooney+m20j+201+n5813f/938

I have to agree and disagree with @warren.huisman.  As a FAAST team member, I can tell you that not only are VFR into IMC incidents still on the FAA's "most wanted" list, but the added utility of the TKS system is invaluable.  I've picked up ice several times in VFR/MVFR conditions, and am blessed to have the system aboard.  Considering my missions, I wouldn't consider owning an airplane without some form of ice protection...especially this system.

For @charheep, the argument regarding a few more useful pounds should really take a distant back seat when considering something as important to your aircraft as TKS can be.  If the addition of TKS introduces financial challenges that you believe are intolerable, you're likely not ready to buy an airplane of this caliber.  If I misunderstood your remark about "hurting you financially", my apologies.  If you're asking whether there's an increased cost of ownership versus an airplane without TKS installed, I would tell you that if you don't maintain the system according to CAV's guidelines, then things could get expensive at annual time (new windshield pumps, main pumps, etc., which are in the neighborhood of ~600 - $900 each), however, they fail very infrequently if you keep them exercised.  In other words, it is a VERY low-maintenance system.  What would I do if I were you?  Pull a few pounds off the airplane, load it correctly each time you fly, and enjoy the increase in dispatchability that TKS safely affords.  Let us know what you decide, and how you're getting on with you IFR rating.

Steve

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When looking at buying my first plane while still working on my ppl, I intentionally looked for a FIKI plane.  For some, safety means a parachute.  For me and more importantly my wife, FIKI and a roll cage checked the boxes for safety.  Having since earned my IFR rating, this system is used regularly and is important, especially in the NW.

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I missed the part that you are working towards your IR rating. In that case I would absolutely recommend TKS. As mentioned, it provides a extra margin of safety but you ultimately need to evaluate your mission and how you fly and in which conditions.

Personally, I wish I had waited for a FIKi bird now, but I’m not planning to upgrade either at this point.


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When I bought my diamond da40 in 2008 and I was then vfr only.  I figured yay nice plane and it suits my then mission.  No autopilot by the way.  As a traveling machine it’s comparable to an m20j even if a tad slower,

but I had outgrown it within 18 months and was already trying to sell it which then took 2 years. (Remember the economy then), and then I was shopping 3 main things in a plane / autopilot. higher power to get out of ice quick, and Tks to have some recourse if nonetheless I found ice which in the Great Lake region / sometimes there’s ice even if it’s not supposed to be there.  I eventually was shopping SR22, v35, b36, t210, and several Mooney versions - and eventually found this rocket,  any of those planes would have been fine but then Mooney was the most comfortable and coolest.

So it would have saved some trouble if I had thought ahead and gotten a Tks plane with autopilot when I was still vfr only.

Sounds like a really nice j.  I would consider the Tks a big big bonus not a hindrance.  I think a j is a bit under powered to fly ice / but I don’t want to fly ice.  Fly away from ice.  Yesterday I cancelled a trip to chicago in part because it looked like a significant ice day.  I never fly ice on purpose so Fiki isn’t necessary.  I wouldn’t fly ice on purpose in a fiki single engine airplane either - and as far as de-ice the no fiki Tks system on Mooney is fab / same coverage and same flow rates.

 

oh and it’s quite a no fuss system / just run some Tks through it for a couple of minutes every few weeks and it’s good to keep it wetted.  As fair as maintenance it’s been by far one of the cheapest major systems to maintain - in 12 years I’ve replaced 1 pump and 1 titanium stall strip.

 

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One thing to consider when flying an airplane in icing conditions, is how much climb power do you have. Non turbocharged airframes have less options to escape the ice: stay at the same altitude, descend or a much reduced ability to climb. IMHO, when flying over mountain terrain I would want the best option to climb.

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I would not suggest I know what makes financial sense for someone else, so the question about the pain is subjective. 
What I can tell you, is that if you have ever experienced moderate or severe inadvertent icing conditions, you would look at this question from a completely different perspective. 
Im not saying it would necessarily persuade you, but you would definitely weigh the option differently. 
If the option is the there, I would absolutely pick the tks or fiki.  Not to say I wouldn’t consider a plane without it, but I sure do like having it ..

It’s hard to really comprehend how fast and how bad things can change until you see it with your own eyes.  I think many people assume some level of embellishment with stories…. 
Icing can be a very very serious matter. 

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Thanks everyone.  I was digging to see what the pros and cons are.  The money is important, but not a final determination.  If its a huge pain to maintain or fix  or insurance is double because of it, that is a good to know.  But it sounds like I give up some useful, and its a another system to know and understand, but gain some safety and re-sellability.  

 

Now, I just gotta check the couch for 139k real quick..

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Since you are working on your IR, then yes. If you planned to stay VFR forever, then no.

 

I was a VFR pilot when I bought my J. FIKI wasn't even on my radar. I got my IR in the J and quickly found out that lack of FIKI was pretty limiting. Basically it meant that I could not touch a cloud below freezing. Ice may not be in that cloud. but there is no way to be sure. The only way to be sure you won't pick up ice is to stay out of freezing clouds. So that's what I did, and I cancelled a lot of do-able trips because of that. After a few years I sold the J and bought a FIKI Encore. And now that I have FIKI, I hardly ever use it. But having it gives me confidence to touch a freezing cloud, and I cancel fewer trips because of it. Of course, I still stay away from situations where moderate or severe ice is forecast. 

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Extra systems always have cost.

They are double edged with TKS in that you have to do the recurring items -- filters, running it monthly, ensuring all the panels wet, etc -- as well as a speed hit from the panels being on the leading edge. I don't think I've ever seen a confirmed figure, but have seen between 1-5kts of loss thrown around here.

Weight was also mentioned -- ~37 lbs for non-FIKI dry (From CAV) and TKS is about 9.1lbs/gallon you'll always have a couple of.

Despite those drawbacks, you're in Chicago. The system could be an asset and a lifesaver.

Edited by smwash02
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26 minutes ago, charheep said:

Thanks everyone.  I was digging to see what the pros and cons are.  The money is important, but not a final determination.  If its a huge pain to maintain or fix  or insurance is double because of it, that is a good to know.  But it sounds like I give up some useful, and its a another system to know and understand, but gain some safety and re-sellability.  

Now, I just gotta check the couch for 139k real quick..

Far be it for me to tell you how to think or act here with regards to a potential deal, as it's your money, but to reiterate, the TKS equippage on this aircraft should NOT be looked at as some kind of financial burden...it is a system like any other, and one that is VERY inexpensive to maintain, as I said earlier.  The pros far outweigh the cons.

One thing I would pay more attention to, however, is the fact that this engine is timed out and fully-depreciated.  It was installed 30 years ago and is just below TBO on the hours.  If you're considering this airplane, I would ensure that the seller took this into consideration when deciding on a listing price.  Your thorough pre-purchase inspection will uncover more items that you will want to take back to the seller through the dealer...at least the airworthy items.

Lastly, when considering an engine replacement, I would go for a factory new or factory reman, and go with the IO360-A3B6, instead of the A3B6D, as many "J" owners on here have suggested.  Again, good luck.

Edited by StevenL757
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2 hours ago, StevenL757 said:

Far be it for me to tell you how to think or act here with regards to a potential deal, as it's your money, but to reiterate, the TKS equippage on this aircraft should NOT be looked at as some kind of financial burden...it is a system like any other, and one that is VERY inexpensive to maintain, as I said earlier.  The pros far outweigh the cons.

One thing I would pay more attention to, however, is the fact that this engine is timed out and fully-depreciated.  It was installed 30 years ago and is just below TBO on the hours.  If you're considering this airplane, I would ensure that the seller took this into consideration when deciding on a listing price.  Your thorough pre-purchase inspection will uncover more items that you will want to take back to the seller through the dealer...at least the airworthy items.

Lastly, when considering an engine replacement, I would go for a factory new or factory reman, and go with the IO360-A3B6, instead of the A3B6D, as many "J" owners on here have suggested.  Again, good luck.

So what you are saying is that this plane needs about $50K soon.  Prop last OH 27 years ago.  Hopefully the tanks are ok or that is another $10K or more

It is a capable 2 person plane.  The UL is 816 lbs.   The serial number is too low to qualify for the GW Increase STC.

On the plus side it has dual brakes and dual articulating seats with lumbar support

Here are the logs on this site (oh now I see them on the other site too)

https://www.hangar67.com/aircraft/1986-mooney-m20j-201/21251?psrc=15209

Flown 210 hours in last 10 years. 4 hours in 2020 and 7 hours last year.  Looks like the same A&P for the last 19 years.  A new set of eyes on the prebuy may find many things.

Edited by 1980Mooney
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We have TKS on our M20M and it is great.  The small amount of extra maintenance, weight, and loss of a few knots is well worth the increase in utility & safety.

Mentally and financially prepare for the cost & downtime of the firewall forward that's going to be needed.   We bought a run out M20M and will have put $100K into it by the end of the month to get everything to zero time and fully functional (note the TIO540-AF1B is notably more than the IO-360 you'll be looking at).  Nonetheless, be ready.

We went with a reman and it took 7 months from deposit to delivery from the factory (where we could still fly with the old engine all the way to 2360 SMOH).  Then about 2 months of install, prop OH, etc. where we were grounded.   We went that route which was slightly more expensive than an overhaul.  The alternative would be to fly it until you see signs in your oil analysis, but by then you wont be able to fly for 7 months while you wait.

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Joe still looks this healthy decades later….   :)
 

His last Mooney was an Acclaim, with 310hp…

 

As for TKS on a Mooney…

If you fly 100hrs each year… you are probably going to see some ice….

If you fly in IMC, or just below it… you are going to see some ice….

If you fly in the north… ice is more probable…

If you fly east of a major body of water… not only is the ice more probable… but it comes in heavy doses…

 

So… if you ever intend to fly in IMC in the colder months… TKS is great to have…

Costs…

  • Capital investment
  • weight
  • small speed penalty
  • small hassle to exercise

 

If I were to spec out a new Acclaim… it would have 310hp and a TKS system, and maybe AC too….   :)
 

Adding a TKS system later… way too expensive for most MSer wallets….

Best regards,

-a-

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charheep, this so depends on your flying.  I've had my J for ~13 years and for "my" flying it would never had benefitted me.  Of course I live in Atlanta and typically fly south.  I asked a couple of owners and mechanics and it sounds like maintenance on TKS is low (as stated above).  I'm sure if I lived up north and had a little more reason to fly in colder, wetter conditions, then I'd probably spring for it.  Btw I see it is "pending"...Hope you got it!

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Owned an E for 15 years and am now 1.5 years into a 231 with TKS.  If you're flying for pleasure and personal travel skip the weight, drag and complexity.  If you have places you need to be and want a bit more (not a lot more) additional dispatch reliability, then yes.  Important to remember that these are still only 200HP naturally aspirated airplanes.  You lose noticeable performance with every pound and drag item (TKS) every minute you drag them around.

If you don't run it often, then it takes forever to prime the panels and to keep it primed you're running $25/gal fluid just to keep your hangar floor lubricated.

It seems to be a good system that has added to my utility for business travel.  But again, if you don't need it, I wouldn't have it.

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Consider business travel….

Similar to flying home on Sunday, to be at work Monday morning…. :)
 

X-country travel over a day or two… leads to being away from home port while weather changes…

Weather prediction continues to get better… but can easily change while you are away…

 

If you only fly out to lunch and back… VFR only, no turbo, no FIKI, no WAAS gps required…. :)

 

Fly the plane for weekends at Nana’s beach house with the family….   Even Nana can’t stand your pacing while watching the weather channel on your small screen…

Things to consider while spec-ing out your forever-plane…

Best regards,

-a-

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On 3/16/2022 at 9:50 AM, charheep said:

I am working towards my IR, but I see this J model near me.  Checks all the boxes, but has TKS.  If I never intentionally fly through clouds for the next 4 years (as an example), does having it and not needing TKS hurt me financially?  Like are annuals more, maintenance increased, and/or insurance higher for having that system in place? Or is it minimal cost for something that would helpful when I have my IR and do encounter icing?

 

http://aircraftownershipsolutions.com/inventory/1986+mooney+m20j+201+n5813f/938

I believe that this one is under contract and will be coming to Canada.

Clarence

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I believe it’s all about where you fly.  TKS is meant to get you out of a problem.  I intentionally purchased my Ovation without TKS or A/C.  Where I live, flying into icing is a certain death sentence.  And because of the location, air conditioning is not a necessity..  I don’t want the extra weight or the loss of airspeed.  On the other hand, I have friends back east that won’t buy a plane without TKS. My flights through IMC are limited to stratus and smoke, I just say no to icing.

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Summary….

1) Mooneys are a powerful X-country machines…

2) For both VFR and IFR pilots…

3) You don’t have to be inside a cloud to experience icing…

4) VFR pilots experience icing as well… in the form of freezing rain.

 

Once people have a powerful X-country machine…

They are often drawn to getting their IR… and some go commercial with that as well… over time…

PP thoughts only, not a CFI…

Best regards,

-a-

 

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