252 FWF Conversion STC

[HawkGT]

I am under contract to purchase a M20K that has the 252 FWF conversion installed but the 337 was never filed with the FAA.  Looking through the airframe log book I see the conversion was done in 1997 and Robert H Meier, the FAA documented owner of STC SA2445CE, signed off on the work.  I understand that Mr Meier passed away in 2020 along with some of his ModWorks/Mod Squad partners.  The FAA still shows him as the owner to the STC so its clear he didnt release it to the public domain.  I have the FAA CD for the aircraft and the 337 and STC are not there.  I am looking for someone with the same conversion that has a copy of the STC to assist in filing a field approval to get this cleaned up. (ref: STC SA2445CE and DWG #3172B or maybe its #317213)  Thanks!

 

Jason

 

[LANCECASPER]

On 2/20/2022 at 11:38 AM, HawkGT said:

I am under contract to purchase a M20K that has the 252 FWF conversion installed but the 337 was never filed with the FAA.  Looking through the airframe log book I see the conversion was done in 1997 and Robert H Meier, the FAA documented owner of STC SA2445CE, signed off on the work.  I understand that Mr Meier passed away in 2020 along with some of his ModWorks/Mod Squad partners.  The FAA still shows him as the owner to the STC so its clear he didnt release it to the public domain.  I have the FAA CD for the aircraft and the 337 and STC are not there.  I am looking for someone with the same conversion that has a copy of the STC to assist in filing a field approval to get this cleaned up. (ref: STC SA2445CE and DWG #3172B or maybe its #317213)  Thanks!

 

Jason

 

I would absolutely hold off on the purchase until the Seller gets this figured out.  It's their responsibility not yours. Everything gets sold someday and down the road you'll have to sell it. Don't count on a field approval for that. If that was the case everyone that has a 231 would just do that when they need an overhaul. If this is the airplane I'm thinking of many others have pursued it and decided to back off when they discovered what you have. Whenever I'm in this same situation in any similar purchase, I am forced to ask myself, "what makes me think that I'm smarter than the rest of the people who have walked away?"

[HawkGT]

@LANCECASPER That is all sound advise and I have put the seller on notice that this must be resolved prior to purchase.  I have found similar posts to mine but they didnt list the tail number so I dont know if its the same plane or indicative of a shop that was sloppy with paperwork.  Either way, I dont fashion myself as any smarter than others but willing to put forth some effort if it can be resolved...otherwise I will walk.  The reason I have hope the STC holder signed the log versus every other 231 who may want to put a -MB on the front of their bird but maybe this too is wishful thinking.

[LANCECASPER]

6 minutes ago, HawkGT said:

@LANCECASPER That is all sound advise and I have put the seller on notice that this must be resolved prior to purchase.  I have found similar posts to mine but they didnt list the tail number so I dont know if its the same plane or indicative of a shop that was sloppy with paperwork.  Either way, I dont fashion myself as any smarter than others but willing to put forth some effort if it can be resolved...otherwise I will walk.  The reason I have hope the STC holder signed the log versus every other 231 who may want to put a -MB on the front of their bird but maybe this too is wishful thinking.

Good thinking - you're on top of it. It's very easy to let the purchase become emotional instead of logical but your thinking is clear. Especially in this market right now, some sellers want to make their problem become the buyer's problem.

[Fly Boomer]

Maybe you can get something from these people, or perhaps on another CD from the feds:

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?make=MOONEY&model_group=MOONEY+M20+SERIES&model=M20K+231&listing_id=2399957&s-type=aircraft

[A64Pilot]

If the paperwork other than the 337 are in order, an IA can file a “complete the record” 337, now I don’t know if that’s an actual name, or just what it’s called, but it’s done all of the time to correct records, not usually for something this complex of course, but IF all the supporting documentation is there it can be done.

Having said that no way would I even consider purchase until it’s done, cause you never know.

An IA signs the 337 and then it’s sent to OK City by US mail. Nothing is done to ensure it got there or the FAA didn’t lose it once it was, so it’s possible one was completed and sent off.

Back in the day it used to go to the FSDO for their review, that’s no longer done, it goes straight to OK City now and filed electronically now of course.

Edited February 21, 2022 by A64Pilot

[HawkGT]

@Fly BoomerThats the plane with the issue, N231JN.  I have found at least one other archived sales ad for a plane listing the same STC and if I cant find anyone here with the paperwork then I will order the FAA CD for that tail number...or rather I will let the owner/broker order it if they want to try and resolve the issue.  The owner is an A&P/IA so Im sure he knows the options if he really wants to rectify the issue.

[milotron]

I remember looking at this one out of curiosity.

It is the first 'firewall forward' upgrade to 252 that I have seen that kept the LB/GB cowl flaps vs the single, bottom mounted MB flap.

[ArtVandelay]

Aren’t these also called 262s?

[LANCECASPER]

4 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

Aren’t these also called 262s?

There were at least a couple of STCs. One was a 261, one was a 262.

[LANCECASPER]

On 2/20/2022 at 11:59 PM, milotron said:

I remember looking at this one out of curiosity.

It is the first 'firewall forward' upgrade to 252 that I have seen that kept the LB/GB cowl flaps vs the single, bottom mounted MB flap.

If they didn't do everything in the STC it sounds like it was a rogue owner or IA, or maybe owner/IA that just took it upon themselves to install this engine on a 231.

[philiplane]

20 hours ago, HawkGT said:

I am under contract to purchase a M20K that has the 252 FWF conversion installed but the 337 was never filed with the FAA.  Looking through the airframe log book I see the conversion was done in 1997 and Robert H Meier, the FAA documented owner of STC SA2445CE, signed off on the work.  I understand that Mr Meier passed away in 2020 along with some of his ModWorks/Mod Squad partners.  The FAA still shows him as the owner to the STC so its clear he didnt release it to the public domain.  I have the FAA CD for the aircraft and the 337 and STC are not there.  I am looking for someone with the same conversion that has a copy of the STC to assist in filing a field approval to get this cleaned up. (ref: STC SA2445CE and DWG #3172B or maybe its #317213)  Thanks!

 

Jason

 

The FAA can't field approve an STC installation. A new 337 would have to be filed, for the purpose of replacing the missing 337. The new 337 would have to include all the original paperwork, and state that the work was done, the aircraft logs are correct, but the original 337 never made it to Oklahoma City.

[Sixstring2k]

The fact that plane is still seating on the market for as long as it has in this market is a red flag for me. 

[HawkGT]

1 hour ago, LANCECASPER said:

If they didn't do everything in the STC it sounds like it was a rogue owner or IA, or maybe owner/IA that just took it upon themselves to install this engine on a 252.

I don’t think this is the case, the original install was signed by the STC owner.  Further there is another log entry two years later from a separate IA noting the 337 discrepancy and indicating that the modification was inspected against the STC and associated drawings and found to be complete and correct.

I just talked to the broker and the owner has found the original 337s, which I think will go a long way to resolving this if I can find a copy of the STC.

As for the single/double cowl flaps, it seems there were multiple STCs for this 231 conversion with a -MB and some of them maintained the manual cowl flaps while others provided for the electric variable position flaps.  At least thats what I have gathered from reading up on this topic over the last few days, but again I would love to read the STC and the drawings to understand the details for myself.

[1980Mooney]

2 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

There were at least a couple of STCs. One was a 261, one was a 262.

262 was from Mod Works

261 was from Mod Squad

https://books.google.com/books?id=eK-0kCuwKz8C&pg=PA90&dq=mooney+m20k+Flying+Magazine+252+modworks+conversion&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj6hZi7nJH2AhXzm2oFHQiRDqkQ6AF6BAgCEAI#v=onepage&q=mooney m20k Flying Magazine 252 modworks conversion&f=false

 

 

[geoffb]

Not expert, but there are two STCs.  261 and 262.  Mine's a 261 and the STC includes the cowl change complete with electric cowl flap.  The 262 conversion used a vernier cable actuator of the cowl flap.  Not sure if that STC included replacement of the cowling.  The plane in the ad has not had the cowling replaced with a 252 cowl.  Look like the NACA scoop for induction air and the access door for the intake boot were added to a 231 cowl and a vernier cable control added to the cowl flap actuator.  Curious if the 262 STC allows reuse of the 231 cowl, but all the others I've seen had a 252 cowl with a manual cowl flap actuator.

The way the ad reads, it sounds like they put on a used engine and prop to do the conversion.

If it was close to free, corrosion free and the paperwork gets sorted, I'd consider it.  But be ready to spend a pile of money if things go south.

I'll be in Richland Tue-Thur on business if you want to compare the complete 261 conversion to this.

 

[LANCECASPER]

All of the ModWorks 262 conversions were done at Punta Gorda FL. None in the field. 

[geoffb]

Mine was 261'd at Lone Star in '98 along with field installed TKS.  Was surprised to see both of those done by other than the STC owners.

 

[LANCECASPER]

@geoffb has my first Mooney that was a 231, then known as N5655T, which I owned from 1993-1996. Ken Shoup (All American aircraft owner back then) bought my trade-in from Mooney and marketed it. It was at close to TBO so the next owner had the 261 conversion done on it. Ken probably arranged it through Lone Star in San Antonio. Dennis Bernhard ran a great shop.

[geoffb]

And it’s a sweetheart.  Now 262VF.  Previous owners had Lone Star throw pretty much the entire mod catalog at it.  Not my hangar…..

Edited February 22, 2022 by geoffb

[LANCECASPER]

Wow, TKS even. New paint from when I had it. It was tan and brown originally. I got my instrument rating in that airplane.

N5655T was a cream puff. Ken Shoup was after me to sell it to him from the day I bought it. He called me one day telling me that he had someone fly in from out of state to buy it. I had to keep reminding him that it was not for sale . . lol

[geoffb]

Hasn't been flown a whole lot since you had it.  About 1950 TT now, with about 350 on the conversion.  Last owners only put about 230 on it.  I've had it since Dec 2000 and a bit under 130 hours.  Been a bit of work waking it up from about 10 years of inactivity.  Huge step up in comfort and capability from my old E.

[HawkGT]

Just to wrap this up, the owner found the original STC and 337s which were signed by Robert "Bob" Meier.  The STC lists Robert Meier doing business as Mod Squad.  It also references this as a 261, consistent with the posts above.  The 337 says the -MB engime, new propellar and a new Mooney cowling were installed, but it does not give the part number for the cowlimg.  The owner (IA)  is filing this with the FAA to clean up the documentation in the FAA's file.  Thanks for all the great information above!

[Ron McBride]

Is 231TW the original “N” number?

 

[HawkGT]

Thats 231JN, but I agree it looks more like a W.  337 looks similar but serial number matches.