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Need advice / sharing my concerns with someone


redbaron1982

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5 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

Ah, yes.  Just what I thought....a first time buyer, not an expert on Mooneys, pays to have an 'expert' examine the plane.  After the fact, he's told, by internet cognoscenti that, in effect, it's his fault for not telling the 'expert' what to look for????

GMAFB!

Just don't wonder why GA keeps shrinking and doesn't attract new pilots.  We are our own worst enemy, I'm afraid.

Well maybe it does make sense for a first time buyer to use a Broker - maybe they do add value in a case like this with advice and insight. - like this current topic by @spitzfyre (I hope he reads this thread)

 
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When I purchased my Mooney, I specifically instructed the IA doing the inspection to check for ANY corrosion. However, having said that I did not have anything in writing. 

IF I ever purchase another aircraft I will have everything in writing. 

For anyone to do a pre-buy inspection and give you the green light and then 2 months later they tell you the plane is no longer airworthy????? I would have an enormous problem with that. 

I am not an attorney, but if I were you I would consult with one to find out what your options are. If you are not covered contractually with either the MSC or the seller, I would think you are going to have a problem getting any financial relief. 

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28 minutes ago, corn_flake said:

GA is destined to die I’m afraid. There are too many only want to keep the status quote and refuse new way of doing things. 

….keep the status quo and refuse new way of doing things.  ?

 I am not following. What are you referring to?…how to or new ways to purchase an airplane?

 

Edited by 1980Mooney
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Unfortunately, involving an attorney will most likely end up even worse financially, than if you just licked your wounds and moved on. The only winners in 90% of legal disputes are the attorneys. 
This isn’t a slight against attorneys btw, it’s just reality. 
Even if there were a crystal clear written agreement, and the seller or the service center didn’t cooperate, the legal fees would escalate so quickly it would make your head spin. 
In the end you may prevail, but it is extremely unlikely that you would recover legal fees. 
I am also sorry you find yourself in this situation, but it sounds like there are way too many things left to interpretation to expect justice in litigation. 
your best bet is to look for an amicable resolution with either or both the seller and the MSC.  
I think some people feel that a prebuy is supposed to be a panacea, but given what most people have quoted for prebuy prices, I can’t see the shop being able to do much. 
If one were to want an effective prebuy they would have to write specifically what they wanted done and likely be present during...

This is an example where it would be beneficial to engage a knowledgeable broker or owner to advise how to look for known issues with Mooney’s  

Is the corrosion really bad enough to scrap the plane or is that just your fear?  
While it’s certainly possible, Mooney’s are not know for spar corrosion are they?

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28 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

….keep the status quo and refuse new way of doing things.  ?

 I am not following. What are you referring to?…how to or new ways to purchase an airplane?

 

Did you read the some of the replies?  Apparently, some think customers are suppose to "instruct" the shop exact what to inspect in a PPI.  Why would the customers pay the shop (aka expert) if the he knows more about inspecting an Mooney?

 

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26 minutes ago, Schllc said:

Is the corrosion really bad enough to scrap the plane or is that just your fear?  

While it’s certainly possible, Mooney’s are not know for spar corrosion are they?

I haven't seen pictures yet, so far is my fear. 

What they say is not the spar itself but the lower cap on a stub spar. I understand that some of this parts can be replaced. 

Although I haven't been specific on what to include in the inspection, I wasn't cheap either. I'm paying 2k for the prebuy and 2k for completing the annual. That's only the inspection part, not including any repairs. 

I would expect certain quality if you take a aircraft to a official MSC. If corrosion is a major issue (and it is), why they haven't checked for that during the prebuy? Actually, as I said, I asked them to do a prebuy that would become the annual. So they said they were going to do the inspection part of the annual, and then completing the annual with the no inspection items. So why corrosion, being a major concern when buying and aircraft, and being an inspection item, was not checked during the prebuy?

That's what I am going to discuss again with them as soon as I have more information on the severity of the corrosion. 

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Notes on corrosion…

We have a few basic types…

1) Surface corrosion, that mostly affects the sheet metal parts… it spreads across the surface, under paint…

2) intergranular corrosion, that is the challenge of the structural and machined parts… it spreads into the metal, making it weaken…

2a) steel tube corrosion, is a popular item to check for… 60s Mooney insulation was good at keeping errant moisture against the steel tubes…

2b) cam and follower corrosion, a popular challenge for engines that sat too long…

 

3) Once started, corrosion can spread quite quickly… becoming serious in a year’s time…

4) The idea behind the annual… you have a good chance to find the budding start of corrosion… before it has time to spread.

5) Once you find or see corrosion…. Now is the time to take care of it…

 

6) Some parts of the plane are hard to inspect… that is why we use Mooney experts for best results…

 

7) Why did Mooney select materials that can corrode…

Material selection is challenging… there isn’t much room beyond being light, strong, and affordable….

the three types of metal (sheet, machined, tubes) all have different methods of protecting them from corrosion… (internal engine parts get oil coated)

The sheet metal is Alclad, with an anti corrosion coating and paint… the newer the Mooney, the better the anti-corrosion got…

Alclad is an aluminum oxide coating done at the aluminum plant… before the plane gets built…

The machined parts are a structural aluminum that gets an anti corrosion coating…

Keep an eye on all the coated surfaces… the coating can get scratched or worn… or have soda spilled on it by the back seaters, and it hides under the rug…

8) corrosion mitigation can be really inexpensive, to totally ruin your day expensive….

Some is easily cleaned, treated, and painted to fix properly…

Others are a replacement exercise… it depends on how many things are in the way to get at it, or how many things are attached to it…

When it comes to tubes… cutting and replacing tube segments can be a bear… 

9) Spar caps are in the machined metals category… their strength is important… they are relatively small…  you can see some under the rugs in the back seat… they look like a stack of aluminum plates riveted together…

10) The maintenance manual has all of the standards that need to be followed… how deep is the corrosion, can it be cleaned, does it need to be replaced?

11) The spars themselves can be very expensive to repair / replace…

12) Many mechanics know this stuff very well, Many MSCs know this stuff very well, Many MSers also have this experience…

13) some areas around the wheel well get wet, and are prone to corrosion… typical maintenance keeps those areas cleaned, dried, and coated…

14) Post pics if/when able…

Hoping that bit of background is helpful… it is best to know what the issue is exactly… is it in other similar places…

PP thoughts only, not a metallurgist…

Best regards,

-a-

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30 minutes ago, redbaron1982 said:

I haven't seen pictures yet, so far is my fear. 

What they say is not the spar itself but the lower cap on a stub spar. I understand that some of this parts can be replaced. 

Although I haven't been specific on what to include in the inspection, I wasn't cheap either. I'm paying 2k for the prebuy and 2k for completing the annual. That's only the inspection part, not including any repairs. 

I would expect certain quality if you take a aircraft to a official MSC. If corrosion is a major issue (and it is), why they haven't checked for that during the prebuy? Actually, as I said, I asked them to do a prebuy that would become the annual. So they said they were going to do the inspection part of the annual, and then completing the annual with the no inspection items. So why corrosion, being a major concern when buying and aircraft, and being an inspection item, was not checked during the prebuy?

That's what I am going to discuss again with them as soon as I have more information on the severity of the corrosion. 

Here is a topic from a couple years ago that is good description with pictures of a similar corrosion issue and repair....

 

Edited by 1980Mooney
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36 minutes ago, corn_flake said:
36 minutes ago, redbaron1982 said:

I haven't seen pictures yet, so far is my fear. 

What they say is not the spar itself but the lower cap on a stub spar. I understand that some of this parts can be replaced. 

Although I haven't been specific on what to include in the inspection, I wasn't cheap either. I'm paying 2k for the prebuy and 2k for completing the annual. That's only the inspection part, not including any repairs. 

I would expect certain quality if you take a aircraft to a official MSC. If corrosion is a major issue (and it is), why they haven't checked for that during the prebuy? Actually, as I said, I asked them to do a prebuy that would become the annual. So they said they were going to do the inspection part of the annual, and then completing the annual with the no inspection items. So why corrosion, being a major concern when buying and aircraft, and being an inspection item, was not checked during the prebuy?

That's what I am going to discuss again with them as soon as I have more information on the severity of the corrosion. 

I didn’t mean to insinuate you were cutting corners, or cheap, but the delta between explanations and expectations is infinite.  
Perhaps someone with more experience can speak to the corrosion,  but to my knowledge, corrosion of the spar is not a prevalent issue in a Mooney, and if that’s the case it wouldn’t be something the shop would be on high alert for. 
I agree that one would hope for a shop that specializes in Mooney’s to do something thorough, but after some time in aviation and experience with multiple shops, I don’t find myself impressed by the average competence or diligence of mechanics.  I’ve found rags in the cowling after oil changes, loose fuel lines, safety wires left off, and all manner of simple items not done, or done poorly. They are human, and some are better than others. 
I have been lucky and haven’t run into any really bad ones, just not as thorough as you would hope, given the stakes. I will never be one that doesn’t understand my machinery or go over work done by others.  I can’t do the work myself without supervision, but I can check up on anything that is done. Bottom line is you have to inspect what you expect
Hopefully it turns out to be something that is able to be repaired and it will just become a hard lesson that you won’t forget.

things seldom end up with the worst case scenario.  
best of luck!

 

 

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The good news…

a spar cap… on a stub spar….

Is not that big, size wise… or terribly critical…  not as critical as the main spar…

Nice details Alan and Clarence!

 

There are pics around here of stub spars getting doublers on them… probably a few stub spars getting replaced…

A typical source of damage comes from using flaps outside their speed range… resulting in cracks in the spar itself…

The doubler is an approved maintenance procedure….

Don’t fret until you get all of the details….

 

Normal for machine sales….

1) The seller knows his machine… and adjusts it price… up for the good things, down for the worn, broken or missing… pictures and descriptions are included to know what is covered…

2) Often, the owner does not know of some deficiencies… that is why there is a pre buy 

3) the pre-buy and following annual, is a weird two step process that has left the new owner exposed…

4) Typically a pre-buy that gets completed with an annual… is more of a one step process… organized by looking at expensive things first… and stopping when you have seen too much… or continuing until the annual is completed, and a few other expensive non AW things are finished….

5) Pre-buys come in a range, from low cost to more than an annual…. Depending on the need/desire of the buyer…

A low cost plane costs as much as your car…

A high cost plane costs as much as your house…

People adjust the needs of the pre-buy to match their budget… and ability or desire to absorb risk…

Some people pre-buy the owner, then buy his plane…

Others know the mechanic doing the pre-buy…

6) had this issue come out in the pre-buy, what was the expected outcome?  
 

Did you discuss what fails the pre-buy and stops the work?  Or who pays for the AW issues that get found? Or what happens if you decide to walk?

7) machines sales of expensive decades old machinery is complex…

8) machine purchasing of decades old machinery is complex and expensive…

9) work on your calm, attention to detail, stay focussed on resolving the problem…

10) If you didn’t buy the plane… the challenge would have belonged to the owner… as it happened during his ownership… and would have come to light at his next annual…

The complexity of who’s problem is it now… can probably be discussed like gentlemen at the MSC… before going to AOPA legal services…

11) Looking into AOPA Legal is probably a good homework exercise…

PP thoughts only, not a lawyer…

-a-

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A few quick thoughts...

* I know you're super frustrated, and I don't want to sound overly critical in this tough context, but ... Be very careful about naming a shop or an individual in a public web post. At least until the matter has been resolved. This could turn out favorably for you in the end, and a Pirep on MS saying "there were some issues after the inspection, but the shop made everything right" is the best outcome for both the shop and the community. Especially given that this happened over a holiday period where communication can be difficult and slow.

* As mentioned by @EricJ above, strongly consider finding a mobile A&P to give you a second opinion. It's worth a couple hours' labor just to have a second data point. 

* When buying an airplane, I'd count on spending 10% of the purchase price on first-year "gotchas." Sometimes that gotcha is in the first annual, sometimes it's after a few flights when you realize that something just isn't quite right - and you end up paying for a lot of minor things that add up to serious money. But it's the rare aircraft purchase that makes it through year one without a multi-AMU unexpected expense. This may end up being just one of your first-year gotchas, and not a major AW issue.

* The tax thing really feels like it could be a miscommunication. Maybe the seller is not understanding what he's being asked to sign. You might try reaching out to a mutual friend on MS and see if they can help. 

 

This is a really small community, and with both the seller and (presumably) a bunch of customers from this MSC on MooneySpace, I'm optimistic that you'll reach a positive outcome. 

As @carusoam would say, Go MS!

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16 hours ago, corn_flake said:

Did you read the some of the replies?  Apparently, some think customers are suppose to "instruct" the shop exact what to inspect in a PPI.  Why would the customers pay the shop (aka expert) if the he knows more about inspecting an Mooney?

 

So that this exact issue doesn’t happen.

I’m the one paying them. If they wanted to they could spend 50 hours looking at every screw and light bulb and keep the tab going. On any pre-buy I have ever had done I have done my research and provide them , in writing, with exactly what i want looked at and then I ask them “What else should we be looking for? What have I forgot to mention?”. I have never had any push-back doing it that way and I think they appreciate having someone that has taken the time to isolate areas of importance rather than just taking shots in the dark. Pre-buys should be done to prevent multiple-thousand dollar gotchas rather than piddly things. The MAPA magazine used to have articles on the various models and what to look for. They were very helpful. Here is an example of one:

M20K PRE-BUY.pdf

I also tell them that I would like to buy some hours of their time. Some shops that just charge a flat rate for a pre-buy I don’t choose to use if they aren’t flexible. If after an hour we find a deal-breaker I don’t want to go further. Since I give them the list in order of importance to me, there have been times when part way through the list after we have looked through the expensive things I tell them that I’m satisfied and we don’t go any further. They get paid their shop rate plus time that they spend researching anything. But I have always tried to carefully comb through the logs and keep a running list of what was done and when it was done to get an overall picture of how the airplane has been maintained, well before I would consider spending money on a pre-buy.

On this situation with the spar cap I would get good pictures and send them to JD Casteel at Southwest Texas Aviation (swat.net). He has been through this before and knows the process very well. Your airplane is still in annual until the last day of February. They have given you their opinion. Settle up with them after explaining that the pre-buy money should have caught that and you would be satisfied with a refund. Ask them to close it up and get it back to Texas after you talk to JD.

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I realize not everyone can do it, but at this point in life, I would be reluctant to buy anything but a Mooney because I know the airplanes fairly well.  I also wouldn't buy an airplane without being intimately involved in the pre-buy inspection which would likely be more extensive and thorough than a typical annual if the owner would allow it.  I'm not a mechanic (just an engineer with an opinion that "knows enough to be dangerous") but I honestly don't believe a thorough annual or pre-buy can be conducted for the hours typically allowed (unless you're an experts expert that works like a hummingbird).  I spent 10 days on my last annual because I had the time and the time was well spent.  Annuals aren't one shot events either like pre-buys; smart planned phased maintenance occurs in rolling waves over many years of ownership.  I don't think it's realistic to expect that things can't be missed during a pre-buy on a 30+ year old airplane regardless of the shops level of expertise (unless you write a blank check and they have lots of time).  Buying a new old airplane is a gamble.  I hope we can see some pictures of this corrosion where we can all learn from it.  

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Thanks y'all for the comments and suggestions, specially those looking forward! :) The pre-buy is already done and cannot be changed, eventually, in the future, I could be more specific on telling the "experts"  how to inspect an aircraft!

I hope to get the pictures from the MSC on Monday and I'll share them here and also send it to Don Maxwell or Southwest Texas. I'm based in Houston, now I'm regretting on not having had the annual here, where maybe the best MSC are located.

Somewhere I read that there maintenance manual for M20J are of available to the regular public (for free), is that so? Is there anywhere where I can get those just to learn more about the aircraft? I have some mechanical knowledge, but on cars (I'm building a FFR Roadster), not much on aircrafts.

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@LANCECASPER  I appreciate you sharing your experience.  I still stand by my statement that those who in work in GA must change how they operate or the future of this field does not look well.  

My day job is in IT.  In order to make technology accessible to the masses, IT field has embraced changes and process improvement.  Gone were the days where we require users to take a week long class just to learn how to use a word processor (remember Word Perfect 5.1?).  If a customer contracted my team to set up an e-commerce web site.  My team will be the "expert".  The only thing the customer need to provide is what they want to put on the web site.  The customer doesn't need to understand the difference between the backend operation system, or the web server.  All they need to ask for is to have the web site up and taking orders.  If the web site is ever down, they call us, and my team doesn't expect the customer to "instruct" them on where to look to fix the problem.  

Now what would it take for GA to get to that level?  There appear to be a gap in how people receive services in GA.  When I work with independent A&P and I&A, they are great.  They involve me in all the conversation and decisions.  I'm able to pay them more than what what the shop is paying them.  It's a win & win situation.  I take full responsibility of how the job gets done, since I'm effectively the employer.  In my observation, things often break down when a "shop" is involved.  Perhaps we need someone to interface between the customers and the shop?  

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This thread just illustrates what most of us (now) know. After you have been an aircraft owner for several or many years you know how to avoid or mitigate these problems, but when you are new to this corner of the world, you just don't have the knowledge to tell the PPI guys what to look for.

It would help, but not solve the problem, if there was a "standard" PPI list. 

It would also help if people new to the area would read extensively (like on MS) as to what to look for. But when I started to look for a plane, I did not know that forums like this existed, and MS had not yet been created.

 

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@LANCECASPER

I have to echo @corn_flake's sentiments on this.  Your post was a well reasoned one for someone FAMILIAR with the intricacies of airplane ownership, but expecting, practically demanding, that all buyers must have that level of experience to purchase an aircraft is one of the reasons why GA is declining.  Consumers have become used to a much higher level of expectation with automobile purchases; GA is stuck in the mentality of 1920s car ownership!  Defending that 'old school' model is exacerbating the death of GA.  Look no further than how Cirrus entered, and now dominates, the market for an example of how to grow GA.

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8 minutes ago, redbaron1982 said:

Thanks y'all for the comments and suggestions, specially those looking forward! :) The pre-buy is already done and cannot be changed, eventually, in the future, I could be more specific on telling the "experts"  how to inspect an aircraft!

I hope to get the pictures from the MSC on Monday and I'll share them here and also send it to Don Maxwell or Southwest Texas. I'm based in Houston, now I'm regretting on not having had the annual here, where maybe the best MSC are located.

Somewhere I read that there maintenance manual for M20J are of available to the regular public (for free), is that so? Is there anywhere where I can get those just to learn more about the aircraft? I have some mechanical knowledge, but on cars (I'm building a FFR Roadster), not much on aircrafts.


We have a couple of Factory Five owners around here… post a pic! :)
 

I had my PPI for the O done at Don Maxwell’s shop… completed with an annual… sent home waiting for a light bulb…

The odd bulb was an AW issue… it is the blue light that tells the pilot which radio is supplying data to the HSI…. Took a couple of weeks to get the bulb, installed at a local MSC…. One MSC charged the other for finishing the work…. All worked pretty smoothly between all of the players…

There aren’t a lot of MSCs… they don’t change hands very often… sometimes they are passed down to the next generation…

PMax seems to be following DMax’s foot steps…
 

Looking forward to hearing the good news…

Best regards,

-a-

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On 1/8/2022 at 1:33 PM, MikeOH said:

@LANCECASPER

I have to echo @corn_flake's sentiments on this.  Your post was a well reasoned one for someone FAMILIAR with the intricacies of airplane ownership, but expecting, practically demanding, that all buyers must have that level of experience to purchase an aircraft is one of the reasons why GA is declining.  Consumers have become used to a much higher level of expectation with automobile purchases; GA is stuck in the mentality of 1920s car ownership!  Defending that 'old school' model is exacerbating the death of GA.  Look no further than how Cirrus entered, and now dominates, the market for an example of how to grow GA.

I'm not trying to be uncaring and I’m not expecting or demanding that all buyers already have that knowledge, I sure didn’t when I got interested in airplanes. But it is available if you ask, look around, and do your research. In fact it’s more available now than at any time in human history. No one has to do all that, but if they don’t , as we see here, it can lead to problems. I feel bad for the individual, No one wants that for him. Sometimes the tuition paid for the education received is very steep.

In this business just like any other, on every transaction a person with money meets a person with experience. When the transaction closes they exchange what they have. The person who had the money now has the experience and the person with the experience now has the money.

While that might not seem fair, there are no guarantees that you will get fair treatment in life. Therefore I choose to accept the situation the way it is right now rather than the way I would like it to be someday: caveat emptor, buyer beware. The buyer needs to do their own homework to not get taken by the seller or the shop doing the pre-buy or anyone they are giving their money to. I don’t really think either the seller or shop tried to deceive him in this case - it’s just an unfortunate set of circumstances. 

This will all pass once the airplane is looked at by someone that has done this type of thing before, successfully and reasonably. Again, I would get it away from that shop though if it was me. 

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19 hours ago, redbaron1982 said:

They charged me 17 hours

Seems sufficient to pop more than a few panels and search for corrosion.  Did they break it down?  Are you SOL? Not so fast.  I don’t buy that you need to tell the expert what he/she should inspect on ppi.   But buyers think a ppi is an extensive and comprehensive inspection and it’s NOT.  
 

The only question is—Would the corrosion have been found by a REASONABLE A&P given the same time constraints of 17 hours?  Call a shop or ask local A&P and ask what would you inspect for a ppi with a limit of 17 hours.  

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