WAFI Posted January 2, 2022 Report Share Posted January 2, 2022 Like I’ve said before, I’m new to this and welcome your experience and knowledge. I’ve been flying my Mooney a lot since I’ve purchased and logged about 60 hours so far in the past month. Flying all over Florida and GA stopping a just about every airport for fun. Most of my flying has been with a full tank (64gal) at takeoff and with three grown men, well two grown men and my son who is now taller than me at 14y/o. I feel very comfortable in the plane now and I prefer landing with more weight than less. I haven’t takin four pax up yet. So… my question is what are your thoughts on flying at MTOW and I mean right at the line? Do you recommend just starting out with a lot less fuel and get the feel for the plane? Then adding a little extra on the next stop. Flying at MTOW is there some safety cushion built into the number? I don’t think landing is the issue because the fight I’m thinking of is XC and will burn around 22 gallons. Obviously there’s always the chance I need to land early. This is my goal load-out -(Pilot + 3 Pax known weight and 80lbs of cargo 50 gallons of fuel puts me right on the edge with a little aft CG.) I like 50 gallons because of the visual reference tabs in the tanks. I do have a JPI that is now spot on with fuel consumption. Any experience with this sort of flying, pointers, do’s / don’t are all helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted January 2, 2022 Report Share Posted January 2, 2022 Weight, heat, altitude: all result in longer takeoff distances, slower climbs.Don’t forget the heat and altitude effects.In any case, doing the calculations is mandatory, have a point selected that you will abort if not airborne.Otherwise it simply handles as expected, especially if you are use to flying alone. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TCC Posted January 2, 2022 Report Share Posted January 2, 2022 Why does your W&B image reflect 40 gallons of fuel if your scenario calls for 50 gallons? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z W Posted January 2, 2022 Report Share Posted January 2, 2022 Every Mooney I've flown in performs very well at max gross, as long as you have enough runway. With 105 gallon extended tanks, I start most flights at max gross by fueling to it as standard operating procedure. Never too much gas in the tanks. Gently rotate at 75 KIAS, level off, raise the gear and flaps, pitch down for 100 KIAS, and climb out at 500+ FPM. For me, I don't like going shorter than 3,000 feet of pavement with the tanks and seats full, and 4,000 feels a lot nicer. The plane will do less but you lose margins for error, especially if it's hot outside or you're at higher altitude airports. If you find the plane lands better heavy, you may be carrying too much speed on short final. You can get away with 80 KIAS when heavy. When light, 75 KIAS over the fence serves you better. Those 5 knots can really make a difference. Discussions on this site suggest the max gross limit on mid body Mooneys is tied to the landing gear and brakes, and not so much the wing or engine. I am not an aerospace engineer but I would say that matches my experience flying them. They do not struggle at max gross. Happy flying. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_elliott Posted January 2, 2022 Report Share Posted January 2, 2022 2 hours ago, WAFI said: Like I’ve said before, I’m new to this and welcome your experience and knowledge. Its good you are seeking advice and willing to learn, so here is my $.02.... The factory had a test pilot certify this plane to FAA standards for legal maximum takeoff weight that would meet both structural and performance requirements. They eeked out every ounce they could so it could be used in marketing. Anything over this number is not only illegal to take off with, it is really unadvisable IMHO. Yes, I have watched an Ultra take off at least 500# overweight once, and grimaced the whole time. The plane did it, but perhaps if the DA was a bit higher, things might not have worked out so well. Best advice I can give you since you are asking, is always error on the side of caution. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAFI Posted January 2, 2022 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2022 20 minutes ago, mike_elliott said: Its good you are seeking advice and willing to learn, so here is my $.02.... The factory had a test pilot certify this plane to FAA standards for legal maximum takeoff weight that would meet both structural and performance requirements. They eeked out every ounce they could so it could be used in marketing. Anything over this number is not only illegal to take off with, it is really unadvisable IMHO. Yes, I have watched an Ultra take off at least 500# overweight once, and grimaced the whole time. The plane did it, but perhaps if the DA was a bit higher, things might not have worked out so well. Best advice I can give you since you are asking, is always error on the side of caution. Couldn't agree more.... That's why I would never exceed the max take off weight but I guess I'm hesitant to even fly close to it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAFI Posted January 2, 2022 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2022 2 hours ago, TCC said: Why does your W&B image reflect 40 gallons of fuel if your scenario calls for 50 gallons? That's me playing around with different fuel loads and baggage weights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandt Posted January 2, 2022 Report Share Posted January 2, 2022 https://mooney.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/SIM20-132.pdf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAFI Posted January 2, 2022 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2022 2 hours ago, Z W said: Every Mooney I've flown in performs very well at max gross, as long as you have enough runway. With 105 gallon extended tanks, I start most flights at max gross by fueling to it as standard operating procedure. Never too much gas in the tanks. Gently rotate at 75 KIAS, level off, raise the gear and flaps, pitch down for 100 KIAS, and climb out at 500+ FPM. For me, I don't like going shorter than 3,000 feet of pavement with the tanks and seats full, and 4,000 feels a lot nicer. The plane will do less but you lose margins for error, especially if it's hot outside or you're at higher altitude airports. If you find the plane lands better heavy, you may be carrying too much speed on short final. You can get away with 80 KIAS when heavy. When light, 75 KIAS over the fence serves you better. Those 5 knots can really make a difference. Discussions on this site suggest the max gross limit on mid body Mooneys is tied to the landing gear and brakes, and not so much the wing or engine. I am not an aerospace engineer but I would say that matches my experience flying them. They do not struggle at max gross. Happy flying. Yes, by myself I was finding myself carrying too much speed but have since rectified it it a nice lesson from a veteran Mooney pilot. He showed me a completely different way to land than me transition training, not to say anything was wrong with that technique but it was a little harder to manage speed and energy. Now, I pretty much land power off from 1.5 miles out pitching for 80kts, landings became very solid and safe with little to no energy at touchdown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAFI Posted January 2, 2022 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2022 8 minutes ago, Brandt said: https://mooney.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/SIM20-132.pdf I'm not sure this service bulletin applies to me since I have a early model "J 201" 24- 0210. Are you referencing something particular in this bulletin? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandt Posted January 2, 2022 Report Share Posted January 2, 2022 I'm not sure this service bulletin applies to me since I have a early model "J 201" 24- 0210. Are you referencing something in this bulletin?Nope. Didn’t realize what you had. But my point is that overgross flight is contemplated, and the specific procedures to follow. Agree with prior post the main issue is gear stresses, esp on landing. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rwsavory Posted January 2, 2022 Report Share Posted January 2, 2022 I have found that it’s a lot more comfortable to err on the side of being light. Carrying less than full fuel is a good way to do this, being careful to have enough reserve based on conditions. I am pretty ruthless about luggage as well. People tend to pack a lot more than they need. Better to have a safety margin in case of the unexpected, go-arounds, wind gusts down low, etc. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A64Pilot Posted January 2, 2022 Report Share Posted January 2, 2022 It’s like anything else, ease into it, don’t suddenly load to the gills. Landing wise, avoid full stall landings as they may some times end up with a harder than desired landing, but do land nose high and carry the nose wheel off of the ground, usually the weakest gear is the nose so protect it,but concentrate on greasing it on, and stay away from shorter fields until you become comfortable. But to me the biggest thing is loss of performance, especially if and or when you leave your sea level hangouts and Summer gets here. MY J model is a pretty quick airplane, but it gets there from being efficient, not a big motor, so loaded heavy it’s a dog, climbs will be harder and longer, but of course you still need to carry enough speed to keep cyl head temps down, so I end up climbing at 500 FPM, watch the cyl head temp, your working the motor harder and for a longer time so temps can creep up. Don’t go on days with higher winds and or gusts, and avoid heavy turbulence, 2G’s on a heavy airframe is a lot more stress than 2!G’s on the same but lighter airframe. I avoid those days anyway myself as a I fly for fun and gusty turbulent days just aren’t fun. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted January 2, 2022 Report Share Posted January 2, 2022 A64pilot is providing great advice on gaining the experience when it comes to weight. It is not a matter whether the plane will fly with weight at gross, it is how it will fly. I had an annual done over at AirMods a few summers ago. A fellow Mooney owner came over to pick me up. He had owned his Mooney for a bit over a year and had over 300 hours in it - all single pilot, no passengers. It was a really hot and humid day. As we began the takeoff roll he expresses a concern because we were rolling for quite a bit and more than what he was used to. And with the trees at the end, I could see his pucker factor peaking. I knew we would be okay because over 30 years of ownership, you learn. We lost a young Mooney owner (Patrick ) and one of his passengers, to a short runway, heavy load situation. The plane feels differently when heavily loaded and dealing with higher density altitude situations. I’d take the suggestion of working to gain some experiences with heavier loads on longer runways and when the weather is hot and humid. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted January 2, 2022 Report Share Posted January 2, 2022 It’s all about margin trade off. As the margin below gross weight decreases, your margin above book runway requirements should increase. Calculate and know your numbers. The airframe/engine combination has been certified for 2900lbs so your particular model year is not running on the ragged edge at 2740lbs. Nevertheless, weight degrades performance. Plan for it and build in extra margin at every phase of flight. Be very conservative in your operations until you have enough experience to be a little less conservative. The link below calculates stall and threshold speeds for my F model, but the MGTOW is the same so you may find it useful. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragsf15e Posted January 2, 2022 Report Share Posted January 2, 2022 It’s fine, but as everyone else said, it noticeably affects performance - takeoff, climb, cruise, and max altitude. Don’t expect it to perform like you’re use to and you’ll be fine. In most cases, you don’t need full fuel, so make yourself some dipsticks to measure your tanks accurately and fly it with 40 gallons on that 3 hour trip (10gph plus reserve). Sure you need to watch fuel closely, but it will perform better below mtow and you can use the jpi to fly LOP at 8.5 gph. 3 hours is like ~450nm… 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricJ Posted January 3, 2022 Report Share Posted January 3, 2022 8 hours ago, WAFI said: I'm not sure this service bulletin applies to me since I have a early model "J 201" 24- 0210. Are you referencing something particular in this bulletin? I've flown mine at gross at high DA out of a high-altitude airport. It took off fine but didn't want to climb very well, I'm sure partly because the engine wasn't making full power up there. Consider that your J has a gw of 2740 lbs, and many later Js were able to upgrade to 2900 lbs gw just by changing the asi and potentially the rudder balance weight. Same wing, same engine, same propeller. It's not like it flies okay at 2740 and becomes dangerous at 2741 or even 2750 or whatever. That's not to say that busting gw is okay, but there's margin that is managable once you get sufficient experience with the airplane. I wouldn't go experimenting until you get some more time in it, but I wouldn't be afraid of it, either. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BravoWhiskey Posted January 3, 2022 Report Share Posted January 3, 2022 The long bodies have an overweight chart as well. Designed for ferry permits but gives some valuable infor with being 115% over MTOW.... along with some post flight inspection recommendations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted January 3, 2022 Report Share Posted January 3, 2022 The first Ovation accident was an overweight ferry flight… Plan a day where you can load your plane in a few configurations… Sand bags make great simulated passengers… Secure them firmly… My favorite way to measure performance is using the CloudAhoy app with a portable WAAS source… Don’t use your favorite family members while trying to determine if your plane meets book numbers… There was another awful accident last year of a plane at max weight, not meeting the numbers… The challenge is mostly with the pilots, not calculating properly, or missing a detail… or skipping the calculations altogether… or not accounting for something that changed… Patrick missed an important detail… three people, got fuel, and didn’t use the whole runway that was available… Patrick wasn’t the only pilot on board either… We probably discuss DAs every spring in his honor… Be sure to know all of the details… None of the math is linear… So… it doesn’t always make obvious sense… We have an MSer that ran out of runway and couldn’t outclimb the trees… and he is an experienced military pilot at work… So… Calculate your runway numbers… add a simulated passenger… compare your results to the book… See if your measurements and book numbers can tell if you had the extra ‘passenger’ on board… before adding another simulated passenger… If you don’t notice the performance difference by adding passengers…. Recheck your methodology… Same for WnB… as your weight and balance shift…. How did that affect your trim settings? Don’t be in a rush to load the plane to MGTOW, because a book said it should work… prove the book right first, then explore the edges of the envelope carefully… from dead center to closer to the edge, using a stepwise methodology… When your plan is to fly near the edge…. Simple things can put you over the edge…. Temps, gusts, trees…. Etc. Don’t feel bad if it takes a year to pick up all of the experience…. Be PIC, carefully… PP thoughts only, not a CFI…. -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted January 3, 2022 Report Share Posted January 3, 2022 Chances are…. In your Mooney… Three full sized passengers and fuel… you are pretty close to MGTW…. Adding a fourth passenger, you start limiting how much fuel you can carry… to stay under the number…. Do your WnB carefully… Mooneys are built with a ton of leeway…. You can swap fuel for passengers… If not paying attention… when your tanks are full… the passenger weight is most likely limited… Full tanks and full seats doesn’t work unless you have really small tanks… For fun… Find the pics of the five seat M20C… The fifth sitter, was in the baggage area…. It was a very short flight. All survived. -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylw314 Posted January 3, 2022 Report Share Posted January 3, 2022 (edited) Maximum weight in most (all?) GA aircraft is a structural limit, not a performance limit. The max weight is the weight at which the wings can take 3.8g in a normal category aircraft, with at least a 50% safety margin before any structural damage. The upshot is that a takeoff (or any phase of flight) at maximum weight is only a small bit different from flight 100 lbs under max weight. If you're 500 lbs under, it may be significantly different, but the point is that there's no sudden change in performance at maximum weight--your takeoff's just get a little longer with every extra pound. HOWEVER, if you happen to hit a massive bump or severe turbulence, the extra weight could make a huge difference if that extra weight makes you exceed the inherent g limit and safety margin. In other words, above max weight flights should be done VERY carefully to avoid bumps that could exceed the structural limit, but going from max weight to +100 lbs only causes about the same performance decrease as going from -100lbs to max weight. AFAIK, above max weight flights are not unheard of for ferry flights with a ferry permit, and I think there's some kind of rule that allows for it in Alaska without a ferry permit Edited January 3, 2022 by jaylw314 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAFI Posted January 3, 2022 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2022 Thanks for all the feedback, I love hearing all the different and similar perspectives. I'm eager to learn and can't say enough about the knowledge and experience that comes together on this forum. It's truly one of the most useful tools a Mooney owner can tap into. Thanks again everyone! Hopefully all of my questions don't become annoying. LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
201Mooniac Posted January 3, 2022 Report Share Posted January 3, 2022 9 hours ago, jaylw314 said: AFAIK, above max weight flights are not unheard of for ferry flights with a ferry permit, and I think there's some kind of rule that allows for it in Alaska without a ferry permit They are in fact common for ferry flights that are tanked for ocean crossings. A ferry pilot once mentioned a Mooney will fly 50% over max gross but it may not fly outside it's Cg envelop for long. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylw314 Posted January 3, 2022 Report Share Posted January 3, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, 201Mooniac said: They are in fact common for ferry flights that are tanked for ocean crossings. A ferry pilot once mentioned a Mooney will fly 50% over max gross but it may not fly outside it's Cg envelop for long. That does makes sense given the 50% safety margin (although that's a bit scary knowing you'll bend the airplane in a 3.8g bump). However, I have to admit, now I'm not sure if that 50% thing is specific to the old CAR3 standards, Part 23 standard or both FWIW @WAFI I've done the MTOW and rear passengers + cargo thing. At sea level, it's pretty much a non-issue. I've also done it at altitude (Tulelake CA at 4000' MSL and a 3600' runway), and the J's climb performance is a little scrotum-tightening, but certainly safe with good planning. I'd probably think twice with higher altitude or shorter runways though. Edited January 3, 2022 by jaylw314 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schllc Posted January 5, 2022 Report Share Posted January 5, 2022 On 1/3/2022 at 12:02 PM, 201Mooniac said: They are in fact common for ferry flights that are tanked for ocean crossings. A ferry pilot once mentioned a Mooney will fly 50% over max gross but it may not fly outside it's Cg envelop for long. I’m not sure about short and mid bodies, but as I’ve toyed with the weight and balance, just for kicks, it’s always amazed me how hard it is to load a long body “out” of CG. It would appear you would have to intentionally do something for the condition to manifest, and even then it wouldn’t be easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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