FIKI or not?

[Patrick Horan]

Hello everyone. I am currently looking at a 1994 Mooney Braov that has TKS. When looking at the pictures, on the panel there is a placars stating its not approved to fly into known icing. I thought all Bravos were FIKI approved. If its not, what would have to be done to get it approved.

[Rmnpilot]

My 1994 bravo has TKS but is not FIKI.   If I recall, FIKI wasn’t available at the time so what could be purchased was for inadvertent icing conditions.    I’ve read that to make it FIKI, the entire system needs to be replaced vs upgrading components.   

[Patrick Horan]

23 minutes ago, Rmnpilot said:

My 1994 bravo has TKS but is not FIKI.   If I recall, FIKI wasn’t available at the time so what could be purchased was for inadvertent icing conditions.    I’ve read that to make it FIKI, the entire system needs to be replaced vs upgrading components.   

Geez, i hope not... that would suck

[alextstone]

My '95 Bravo is FIKI equipped. 

[larryb]

I’ve looked at bravos that were not FIKI. My understanding is that you cannot easily upgrade. So if you really want FIKI then that plane is not for you. Some will argue that it doesn’t really matter, you shouldn’t fly a piston single in ice anyway and both systems are equivalent at getting you out of trouble. I personally passed on a great looking Bravo because the TKS wasn’t FIKI. I figured that if I was going to take on the maintenance and expense then it should be FIKI. That said I don’t tend to intentionally fly in icing conditions anyway so maybe it doesn’t matter.

[LANCECASPER]

3 hours ago, Patrick Horan said:

Hello everyone. I am currently looking at a 1994 Mooney Braov that has TKS. When looking at the pictures, on the panel there is a placars stating its not approved to fly into known icing. I thought all Bravos were FIKI approved. If its not, what would have to be done to get it approved.

There were two options years ago: TKS DeIce and TKS FIKI. If memory serves me correctly one was like $30,000-$35,000 and the other started out close to $50,000. Now there's one option: FIKI which is now well over $60,000. It's my understanding there is no upgrade path from DeIce to FIKI.

There's a good article on the Bravo in Flying magazine when TKS was first introduced.(https://books.google.com/books?id=SWTxHyD-U_wC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false)

(There's one error in the article where he mentions that the 270hp TIO540AF1B engine in the Bravo as being de-rated compared to the 350hp engine in a Navajo. Come to find out, the only thing those two engines have in common is possibly the spark plugs, nothing else. )

[Patrick Horan]

12 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

There were two options years ago: TKS DeIce and TKS FIKI. If memory serves me correctly one was like $30,000-$35,000 and the other started out close to $50,000. Now there's one option: FIKI which is now well over $60,000. It's my understanding there is no upgrade path from DeIce to FIKI.

Thank you for the reply. This is very disappointing news.

[DaveMC]

I have  non FIKI TKS equipped bravo and it preforms exquisitely well in ice as long as the external temp is above -35F. (whole nother story!!)

My understanding is that the only difference between the FIKI and NON FIKI installs is an addition pump. (not a A and P just some personal research). 

Many years ago my CFII took me up in my old C model and a "perfect" icing day (ceiling was 4000 ft ad a nice layer of clouds below freezing, with temps above freezing at 3500).  It didn't take long before the tiniest bit of ice degraded the M20C flight characteristics and handling so much that it quite literally scared the shit out of me.  It was the perfect lesson from a wise old CFII.  I have feared and respected the ice monster ever since.  (see disclaimer) I do not like to climb through it or stay in it for more than 30 min or so.  I will climb through it if I know the layer is no more than 4k thick and i am at or above MVFR on takeoff (but again...dont like it). 

I don't mind descending through it as long as i am at or above my own  personal approach minimums.  I have done this a bunch of times and I have never seen ice on the airframe on landing but still I hate ice.  The prop thrower literally covers the fuselage in TKS fluid.  

BTW a short disclaimer....i have never flown into Known Icing just clouds below 32F.

My other paranoid fantasy is that I can not directly visualize the tail TKS functioning in flight.  Seeing the fluid covering the wings is very comforting however.

A full load of TKS fluid lasts 1 hour and 15 min on de-ice setting and 2 hrs and 30 min on anti-ice setting.  

I hope that helps.

 

[Patrick Horan]

4 hours ago, DaveMC said:

I have  non FIKI TKS equipped bravo and it preforms exquisitely well in ice as long as the external temp is above -35F. (whole nother story!!)

My understanding is that the only difference between the FIKI and NON FIKI installs is an addition pump. (not a A and P just some personal research). 

Many years ago my CFII took me up in my old C model and a "perfect" icing day (ceiling was 4000 ft ad a nice layer of clouds below freezing, with temps above freezing at 3500).  It didn't take long before the tiniest bit of ice degraded the M20C flight characteristics and handling so much that it quite literally scared the shit out of me.  It was the perfect lesson from a wise old CFII.  I have feared and respected the ice monster ever since.  (see disclaimer) I do not like to climb through it or stay in it for more than 30 min or so.  I will climb through it if I know the layer is no more than 4k thick and i am at or above MVFR on takeoff (but again...dont like it). 

I don't mind descending through it as long as i am at or above my own  personal approach minimums.  I have done this a bunch of times and I have never seen ice on the airframe on landing but still I hate ice.  The prop thrower literally covers the fuselage in TKS fluid.  

BTW a short disclaimer....i have never flown into Known Icing just clouds below 32F.

My other paranoid fantasy is that I can not directly visualize the tail TKS functioning in flight.  Seeing the fluid covering the wings is very comforting however.

A full load of TKS fluid lasts 1 hour and 15 min on de-ice setting and 2 hrs and 30 min on anti-ice setting.  

I hope that helps.

 

Thank you for the reply! So does the NO FIKI still work alright? 

[DaveMC]

It works great

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, Patrick Horan said:

Thank you for the reply! So does the NO FIKI still work alright? 

Re-read the first sentence of his reply.

[tls pilot]

On 11/26/2021 at 5:09 PM, Patrick Horan said:

Hello everyone. I am currently looking at a 1994 Mooney Braov that has TKS. When looking at the pictures, on the panel there is a placars stating its not approved to fly into known icing. I thought all Bravos were FIKI approved. If its not, what would have to be done to get it approved.

The TLS then Bravo have an option for TKS: approved for known icing (fiki) and a non fiki.

(The FAA definition of flight into known icing vs flight into icing is another subject. The FAA site will explain the variances/differences.)

Ill try to answer your question and not just ask you to read something… kindness helps, especially to those who are not familiar with something!

The biggest difference is: the Known system is approved (certified) and had reams of paperwork and flights to get the approval and then certified,it has two pumps, a heated stall warning/vane and costs more. As an example, The resale on a Bravo will be approximately +$20,000.00 for known, +$10,000.00 for non.

The system works very well. Ours has been installed( done at AST TKS in KS)  since 1997.

My thoughts are it is a real benefit to have (most flights are in high teen flight levels) but count on it to get you out of icing and not continue flight in the icing. 

of note, a few TKS systems kept the electric de ice prop that came with each TLS. Others got the TKS installed and had the spray nozzles/slingers on the prop blades with specially designed boots. 

The TKS system very works well be it a FIKI or non FIKI system.

I am not sure of the answer, Having a non approved system converted to a FIKI system. IF it can be done, it certainly would involve adding a second pump, heated stall warning vane, and new flight manual paperwork by the CAV Aerospace folks ( the ones who certified the TKS system) along with plenty of labor, downtime, and money.

Hopefully this helps you and answers your questions regarding the differences etc

[carusoam]

So…

We have two options…

1) Fiki…

2) Non-Fiki…

 

Consider a typical flight east of any large body of water… in cold months… while flying in IMC…

You are flying along and experience freezing large water droplets, and your wings are getting loaded up…. Your prop is becoming less efficient… and your windshield is getting glazed over…

It is time to execute your emergency authority to get out of the icing conditions… but nothing brings your heart rate back to normal like clean wings…

 

The non-Fiki system is great for controlling your heart rate… compared to just a heated pitot system…

The Fiki system has a couple of extra functions to it that are nice to have if you are on the east end of large bodies of water…

 

If you use your plane as a work horse… FIKI makes a real difference… east of the big body of water…

If you can work from home using Skype or video calling…  it is easy to not go…

 

Challenges… not all ice is known ice…

Not all problems are pump and tank related… solved by having a spare of each…

 

Taking dough out of the question…

It is easy to click the Add Fiki to my plane button…

And have the heated stall warning vane…

And know that the stall speed changes as the ice changes the shape of the wing…

 

IFR pilots get to avoid icing and thunderstorms on a regular basis…. TKS and Fiki give options for icing avoidance…

 

PP thoughts only not a CFII…

Best rgeards,

-a-

[Patrick Horan]

1 hour ago, tls pilot said:

The TLS then Bravo have an option for TKS: approved for known icing (fiki) and a non fiki.

(The FAA definition of flight into known icing vs flight into icing is another subject. The FAA site will explain the variances/differences.)

Ill try to answer your question and not just ask you to read something… kindness helps, especially to those who are not familiar with something!

The biggest difference is: the Known system is approved (certified) and had reams of paperwork and flights to get the approval and then certified,it has two pumps, a heated stall warning/vane and costs more. As an example, The resale on a Bravo will be approximately +$20,000.00 for known, +$10,000.00 for non.

The system works very well. Ours has been installed( done at AST TKS in KS)  since 1997.

My thoughts are it is a real benefit to have (most flights are in high teen flight levels) but count on it to get you out of icing and not continue flight in the icing. 

of note, a few TKS systems kept the electric de ice prop that came with each TLS. Others got the TKS installed and had the spray nozzles/slingers on the prop blades with specially designed boots. 

The TKS system very works well be it a FIKI or non FIKI system.

I am not sure of the answer, Having a non approved system converted to a FIKI system. IF it can be done, it certainly would involve adding a second pump, heated stall warning vane, and new flight manual paperwork by the CAV Aerospace folks ( the ones who certified the TKS system) along with plenty of labor, downtime, and money.

Hopefully this helps you and answers your questions regarding the differences etc

Thank you and everyone else for the reply!

[Patrick Horan]

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

So…

We have two options…

1) Fiki…

2) Non-Fiki…

 

Consider a typical flight east of any large body of water… in cold months… while flying in IMC…

You are flying along and experience freezing large water droplets, and your wings are getting loaded up…. Your prop is becoming less efficient… and your windshield is getting glazed over…

It is time to execute your emergency authority to get out of the icing conditions… but nothing brings your heart rate back to normal like clean wings…

 

The non-Fiki system is great for controlling your heart rate… compared to just a heated pitot system…

The Fiki system has a couple of extra functions to it that are nice to have if you are on the east end of large bodies of water…

 

If you use your plane as a work horse… FIKI makes a real difference… east of the big body of water…

If you can work from home using Skype or video calling…  it is easy to not go…

 

Challenges… not all ice is known ice…

Not all problems are pump and tank related… solved by having a spare of each…

 

Taking dough out of the question…

It is easy to click the Add Fiki to my plane button…

And have the heated stall warning vane…

And know that the stall speed changes as the ice changes the shape of the wing…

 

IFR pilots get to avoid icing and thunderstorms on a regular basis…. TKS and Fiki give options for icing avoidance…

 

PP thoughts only not a CFII…

Best rgeards,

-a-

Thanks for the well written response. I'm planning on being everywhere from AZ-NJ and down to Pheonix. I'll be doing trips like these multiple times a year

[carusoam]

32 minutes ago, Patrick Horan said:

Thanks for the well written response. I'm planning on being everywhere from AZ-NJ and down to Pheonix. I'll be doing trips like these multiple times a year

Two areas of the US see a fare amount of icing opportunities…

East of the Great Lakes… and the PNW…

The moisture comes off the large bodies of water until the air is saturated… be aware of weather that comes from those areas first…

Often the water is super-cooled and doesn’t freeze… until something initiates the crystallization…. 
 

Airplane wings make great crystallization initiators…

This is where you see large water droplets freezing on impact with the leading edge… and continuing to freeze as the remaining water flows back… you suddenly realize how much water you impact while flying in rain… 

 

I had one experience with significant icing… during transition training, approaching my own home drome….

A small icicle even grew straight in front of the spinner’s tip…

 

Best regards,

-a-

[Tim Jodice]

The systems FIKI or not work awesome on Mooneys. In addition to what others have said the panels are different. The inadvertent system has 5 panels per wing and two on each side of the horizontal stabilizer, FIKI systems have 3 per wing and one per side of the tail.

If you look at all of the foward facing surfaces on a Mooney there is very little unprotected. About an inch at the wing root, about 2 inches at the bottom of the vertical stabilizer and the wing tips. where it is not obvious is where the panels meet.

Some airplanes Cirrus being a great example have substantial differences between inadvertent and FIKI. A quick walk around a FIKI and then an inadvertent Cirrus it is very obvious that they changed alot from the wing roots, tips not being protected and probably the most important is the elevator counterweight.

Not that ice under any circumstances is good but most airplanes can carry some ice. Few do well with a few extra pounds of weight on a counter weight of a flight control. 

[carusoam]

Great added insight Tim!

Thanks for sharing the pics.

Best regards,

-a-