Newbie Looking For Advice

[SCPDaddy]

I'm 56 yrs old and in the process of getting my FAA medical and then hopefully my ppl.  I want to learn to fly then buy an airplane to help me reduce my business drive times from my current 3 to 8 hours each way.  I am not opposed to buying before I get my ppl and use that airplane to learn in and that would be helpful for 2021 tax reasons if done by 12/31/21.

I graduated from ERAU in 1989 with my BS Aeronautical Engineering after 3 years of Gulfstream GIV flight test data boy intern time in the back of the airplane monitoring the data recording systems and making call-outs for the pilots during the FAA GIV cert program.  At lunchtime I would occasionally fly with a GAC flight test engineer in his Seminole.  I also spent one intern trimester in the Stability and Control Division at GAC working on the P3 replacement project and the GIV around the world record flight planning.  I learned a tremendous amount at ERAU and GAC.

I then worked for the NTSB in DC HQ Vehicle Recorders and Vehicle Performance Divisions from 1990 to 2005 doing mostly aviation but some surface mode data recorder readouts and analyses, on-scene crash site surveys and investigation, performance analyses, path reconstructions and animations, etc.  I did over 300 Part 121 jumpseat rides during my NTSB years on everything from a Shorts 360 to Boeing 777 and 747s and learned a lot about aviation and other modes.  I never got my ppl primarily because management didn't want to pay for it and I was focusing on paying off student loans, buying a home, starting my own businesses, etc.

Since 1999 I have started, bought, and run 7 businesses that now require me to drive a lot every week to and from work locations, as well as take Part 121 flights to work locations.  Numerous peers have their own airplanes that they fly to the same work locations.  Most of these locations are 3 to 8 hours drive times and occasionally longer, and the total time to take a 121 flight including driving to and from the airport, parking, terminal time, plane changes, etc., isn't much less.  I now have 5 and 8 yr old daughters that I want to maximize my time with and I think having the option of flying my own plane will allow me to continue my active business travel while reducing my time away from home and my girls.  We live in North Raleigh, NC about 10 minutes drive from RDU.

I will be able to write off an airplane purchase as well as ownership and operational costs on my biz tax returns and having the additional pilot education and experience will be helpful with my accident investigation CV so long as I don't develop my own accident experience.  Given my 31+ years of NTSB and private accident investigation experience as well as my family focus, I have a lot of concerns with safety and minimizing risk in this ppl and airplane ownership/operation plan.  I've seen a lot of business people kill themselves and family/business members in their own airplanes and I don't want to end up in that tragic circumstance.  So making sure I have the best equipment and training, and make the safest operational decisions will be a priority of mine in airplane ownership and operation.

I have been looking at single piston airplanes for years.  I like the looks and speed of the Mooney and want one with the full Garmin G1000 WAAS A/P TAWS package but others including my godfather (retired Delta 777 Captain) want me to learn on and own a Cessna high wing fixed gear or one of his personal Cubs.  Reading various threads on here it looks like most of you support buying and learning on a Mooney if that's what I really want.  I have used Garmin electronics on my 57 foot charter fishing boat and other boats for many years in day and night visual and "instrument" conditions (running 30 knots at night with plotter, radar and FLIR up to 150 nm offshore) so I am used to Garmin electronics and am hoping their aviation interfaces are similar to their marine units.

Thanks for your help and friendship in guiding me through this process.

Charley

[hubcap]

WELCOME!

You are among friends here. Sounds like you have come to the right spot. These folks are the most knowledgeable guys about Mooney aircraft you will find. You will certainly find that there are differences of opinion on how to proceed, but I believe you will get a bunch of good guidance here that will hopefully point you in the right direction for you and your mission. 

 

[Mcstealth]

Welcome to the Forum. 

Off the top of my head,  the three hour drive should probably remain a three hour drive. 

As far as planes go, you will not need the biggest fire-breather in Mooneys arsenal, unless you want it. 

Flying family and mitigating risk, is all up to you. Train, train, and train some more. Get your ratings and make wise decisions. Something tells me you know that already. 

Good luck. 

 

[201er]

@SCPDaddy I’m curious why you’re looking at a Mooney and not a Cirrus? They seem to have biz people pretty well convinced that anyone can fly it and it’s the safest because they have the most gizmos and parachute. So, I’m just curious what makes you consider a Mooney instead?

[Mooneymite]

The Navy and the Air Force have long histories of ab initio flight training in complex, high performance aircraft.  No doubt that it can be done and done well.  However I'm not sure that learning to fly in "someone else's" plane doesn't make more sense, at least for the first half of attaining your PPL.  While a Mooney is a tough airplane, those first few hours may be tougher.

While starting out in the plane you want to end up in has an appeal, you will find a lot more instructors comfortable and proficient in trainer type aircraft than good Mooney instructors.

Whichever way you go, I wish you a happy journey and a warm welcome to Mooneyspace where opinions are always shared.  

Gus

 

[DXB]

1 hour ago, SCPDaddy said:

Given my 31+ years of NTSB and private accident investigation experience as well as my family focus, I have a lot of concerns with safety and minimizing risk in this ppl and airplane ownership/operation plan.  I've seen a lot of business people kill themselves and family/business members in their own airplanes and I don't want to end up in that tragic circumstance.  So making sure I have the best equipment and training, and make the safest operational decisions will be a priority of mine in airplane ownership and operation.

 

As someone once suggested to me, I normally recommend newbies getting their PPL read a few hundred fatal NTSB reports from piston singles.  Given your 31+ years in the NTSB investigating accidents, I'll allow you to skip that step . Seriously, you should be giving US advice on safe operation... Hope you get a Mooney and stick around here 

[PeteMc]

I don't see any mention of the Basic Medical.  No need to jump through the hoops of a 3rd Class unless you plan to go up above FL180 or do commercial work.  I don't think you have to be an AOPA member for the following link.  If you do, there's LOTS of info out there  on the FAA BasicMed: https://www.aopa.org/advocacy/pilots/medical/basicmed

For insurance reasons, you may want to get your Pilot Certificate and build a little time through a flight school and renting.  Then start looking at purchasing.

[Rick Junkin]

55 minutes ago, PeteMc said:

For insurance reasons, you may want to get your Pilot Certificate and build a little time through a flight school and renting.  Then start looking at purchasing.

^ This. It sounds like you have the means to not be constrained by high insurance costs, but finding coverage may be a challenge in the current market.

Inviting @Parker_Woodruff to the conversation. Parker runs an insurance brokerage and is also a CFII so can offer his insight on both the insurance and training topics.

Welcome to Mooneyspace! 

Cheers,
Rick

[A64Pilot]

I keep seeing people trying to compare learning to fly in a Mooney to military flight training.

Now I wasn’t Airforce or Navy, but Army. 

It’s nothing at all like my civilian training, first it was a full year, a full year of existing and living to learn to fly those complex aircraft. 24/7 often weekends too. You were locked away, didn’t have family or any other distractions or responsibilities, just flight school. nothing else mattered.

Then we were young and extraordinarily motivated, and probably at least 1/4 didn’t make it through and that was after the weeding process to get into the program that dropped more than got accepted, and they all were qualified.

Then with civilian training, your the Boss, your paying, you determine when and where and how often you fly, and if your a slow learner no big deal just buy more instruction. Military training, bust one check ride and your pretty much done, you may graduate and fly a Huey or something, but your not getting an advanced aircraft, and most likely your time in the Military is limited.

Listen to your God Father, He was a 777 Capt. Think just maybe he just might know what he’s talking about?

Edited November 21, 2021 by A64Pilot

[ilovecornfields]

Good responses here. You can certainly learn in a “complex” aircraft. I did my primary training in an Arrow, starting at age 12. Soloed  in it and got my private and instrument rating in it. You’re probably a better pilot already than I was as an adolescent so it’s not that challenging. I know an Arrow isn’t a Mooney, but it’s not that fundamentally different than a short-body Mooney (although the Mooney is certainly a little faster, better built and much sexier).

I commute to work in my Mooney but I wouldn’t recommend it for a new pilot. If you absolutely positively have to be there you need to drive, otherwise you’re going to end up in one of those accident reports you’re so familiar with. Instrument rating is a must for anyone commuting as well.

I think a Mooney might work well for you (it certainly does for me) but I would also echo the recommendation to try a Cirrus. There are many flight schools that only teach in Cirruses and you can make the gradual transition from an SR20 to a FIKI SR22T (which may also fit your mission well).

 

[Parker_Woodruff]

4 hours ago, Junkman said:

^ This. It sounds like you have the means to not be constrained by high insurance costs, but finding coverage may be a challenge in the current market.

Inviting @Parker_Woodruff to the conversation. Parker runs an insurance brokerage and is also a CFII so can offer his insight on both the insurance and training topics.

Welcome to Mooneyspace! 

Cheers,
Rick

 

7 hours ago, SCPDaddy said:

I like the looks and speed of the Mooney and want one with the full Garmin G1000 WAAS A/P TAWS package but others including my godfather (retired Delta 777 Captain) want me to learn on and own a Cessna high wing fixed gear or one of his personal Cubs.  Reading various threads on here it looks like most of you support buying and learning on a Mooney if that's what I really want.

I would rent a nice Cessna 172 and then transition into the Mooney.  The only carrier I can get to quote students in a Mooney right now has a limit for cosmetic hail damage of 10%, less any deductible.  You don't want a $300,000 golf ball.

Practically speaking (as a CFI), you also don't want to make your hard landings as a student pilot in a nice Mooney.  Make those in the flight school's C172.

You may still need even more time to get well-covered as the amount of carriers who will write a high performing Mooney for a brand new private pilot are basically zero.

Again, there are always options for almost any scenario, but they will come at a cost of price & quality coverage.

Trust me, my airplane budget would love for me to write a $10,000-$20,000/year insurance policy for the first year.  But there are risks that come with it and I wouldn't be looking out for your best interests if I did recommend buying a Mooney as a student.

[Air pirate]

Just because you could , doesn’t mean you should .  We have a friend that wants antes to learn to fly at 60, he went and bought a new Cirrus because he like the idea of a BRS.  He insisted on his primary training in HIS airplane.  
 

Another friend is a CFI stated training him, he was always behind the aircraft and hasn’t soloed in 25 hours of dual. 
 

we suggested he lease a 172 for training , he did and his learning curve increased   quickly , slower speeds, more forgiving , he is still in training and progressing well , he will.

“One can not fly into flying until one learns to crawl, walk and run” 

Hammer out some time in a trainer and process to complex aircraft.  

[Ron McBride]

Flying and learning is similar to driving.  You do not start in a Porche.  You step up to it.

Just because you can afford it, does not make it a good idea.  For additional info, talk to jfk jr. 

It can be done.  I learned in high performance aircraft, but the log book shows a lot of C150 time for the private.  Dad had a Comanche, I had a lot of right seat time and left seat time before my log books started.  I was 15 at the time.  This was over 50 years ago. 
 

Ron

[N9405V]

You’ve gotten some good advice, the thing I will add to think about is how are you getting from the airport to your business. I use my plane for business in cities about a 3 hour drive away. About half the time I end up driving due to lack of ground transport.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jrwilson]

While I like the idea of learning in a Mooney, depending on where you live, it just might not be practical due to insurance.  I have two students who wanted to start training in their mooneys, but no insurance company would quote, no matter the price.  That is California, so maybe where you live the insurance situation is different.  

[Jocbay]

I came to a Mooney J as a pp with 200 hrs… 30 years prior!  I did 5 hours in a C172 (hated it), 2 in a rental M20F, and then hopped in my J.  I never felt overwhelmed in the Mooney; behind sometimes but no big deal, I just extended my base until I caught up.  The Mooney is much more stable on approach which allowed me to concentrate on my speed, drift, gear check, etc.  Much easier for me than bouncing around at 65k in a 172.

As for a 3 hr commute.  I would much rather drive to the airport, pull and preflight the plane, fly and reverse the process than drive for 3 hrs straight.  Driving sucks.  Has I-85 ever improved!?

For the east coast flying, especially for a newer pilot, I believe a M20J is a fantastic traveling platform.  Buy one and fly it for 2 years as you build time and obtain your instrument rating, then look for a long body with turbo, fiki etc. if you so desire.  
 

Or…. if you are going to be carrying 4 people a bunch.  Prolly a C182 ain’t a bad way to go for you at this point either.  
 

Good luck, and enjoy the adventure,  jb 

 

[201er]

3 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

@Parker_Woodruff and some of the others are giving you very sound, practical advice, but boy are we the poo pooers of dreams here on MooneySpace.

Just cause the dream to is to fly a Mooney doesn’t mean that a flight school skyhawk isn’t on the path to fulfilling that dream 

I think that taking it slow and doing it right makes the long term goal of being capable of flying a Mooney more realistic. Stay alive, don’t burn out, don’t quit, and let the long term desires get you though some of the tough or boring parts.

My four half pennies say that a good conversation to be having is what kind of Mooney might satisfy your mission and what kind of path would experienced pilots best recommend to getting to that mission effectively and safely. Even if a Mooney is not in the cards for getting there.

[GeeBee]

I once had a fellow ask me to instruct him for a PPL in his airplane which he had just purchased. It was an Aero Commander 500 Shrike he had just bought. I sat him down and explained to him it would take truck loads of instruction and the AC500 would slow his progress. I explained it would be very expensive, in my time, his fuel, the wear and tear on his airplane.  He said he had "truck loads" of money. It took almost 50 hours to solo him, and about 150 hours for his PPL. It was quite an accomplishment, for both of us. So yes, it can be done. Do I recommend it? No, not really. Why? I believe the more aircraft you are exposed to, the better pilot you become. If you only learn to run with only track shoes on, the whole world is always a track.

Oh, and what did this guy do for a living? It was the mid-70's. He owned a number of "porn stores" with those 25 cent peep shows. He aways paid me in rolls of quarters, which I never unrolled or touched, just took them to the bank and ahem, deposited them. 

[Hank]

PADDY, a Mooney will be a good match for your needs. But insurance may require you to finish your PPL before you fly the Mooney. 

A number of us transitioned to Mooneys with only a few hours. I had 62 hours and a wet PPL when I bought my Mooney, sought a good CFII for training, then took a MAPA PPP to learn to fly the plane right. That course lays a solid foundation to learn the plane before starting Instrument training in your Mooney. 

Welcome aboard, happy hunting and get started training ASAP!

[MikeOH]

I didn't learn to land well on my first try....or, my second....I'm sure glad they were in a rental C150 and not in my brand new to me Mooney!

YMMV, but I doubt it

[Bob E]

So, SCPDaddy, it's fantastic that you've chosen a Mooney; you'll find that it has lots of advantages you haven't even imagined yet. You will enjoy it for years.

Here's my perspective. I've owned my 1965 M20C for just over 35 years now. Bought it when I was single. My son (24) now has the keys to it and flies it frequently. He has never known life without a Mooney!  He started flying right seat as soon as he was big enough to sit on a pillow and see out. By the time he started his flight training, he had years of familiarity with Mooney checklists, power settings, and handling characteristics.

He trained in a 172. Why? 

He certainly could have done his flight training in the Mooney. It would have saved a bunch of money on rental, but the simple fact is, a Mooney is NOT a trainer aircraft. It's not forgiving of hard landings, it's fast, it's hard to slow down, it's not legal to spin, it has no right-seat brakes. Getting a PPL and taking the checkride requires a focus on fundamentals:  FARs, maneuvers, navigation, radios. Sitting right seat for years in a Mooney is quite different than being PIC and being responsible for trim, mixture, prop, gear, communications with ATC, etc.

My son and I agreed on this 100%. He found an excellent instructor, and by renting the flight school aircraft he was able to focus on the training without worrying about prop control, hard landings, etc. He found it extremely useful to become familiar with several aircraft rather than just one. Once he passed his PPL checkride with something like 50 hours TT, the transition to the Mooney was seamless. Adding him as a second pilot to the insurance cost very little; the insurer seemed to be impressed with our approach.

If you've got the money to afford a Mooney, you can certainly afford to train and make your mistakes (and as Parker Woodruff said, do your hard landings) in a trainer aircraft. By the way, 37 years ago - like you - I also decided that I wanted a Mooney, but I trained in 152s and 172s as well. Same reasons.

The photos below are out of order (I don't know how to fix that): my son at age 11, age 21, age 19 (the day he soloed), and age 23 (flying the Mooney).

[ZuluZulu]

If I found myself commuting back and forth between the same two airports, I would keep a hangar at both ends along with a car.  The car away from your home doesn't have to be great, just reliable.  The 'last mile' can be a real pain in the ass, in other words, sometimes the flying is the easy part.

[201er]

6 hours ago, ZuluZulu said:

If I found myself commuting back and forth between the same two airports, I would keep a hangar at both ends along with a car.  The car away from your home doesn't have to be great, just reliable.  The 'last mile' can be a real pain in the ass, in other words, sometimes the flying is the easy part.

Not so hard anymore with Uber. If the airport is close enough to where you need to go and it’s not completely in the middle of nowhere, can make do with Uber.

[40_Year_Dream]

20 hours ago, PeteMc said:

No need to jump through the hoops of a 3rd Class unless you plan to go up above FL180 or do commercial work. 

Um - I'm pretty sure that for Basic Med, you have to pass a 3rd Class medical first, at least once ! (In my case, a Special Issuance 3rd class). It's pretty clear in the regs.

[mike_elliott]

One of the new Ultras was sold to a gent who didnt have a pilot's license yet, and I have given instruction to a 17 year old who hasnt solo'd yet in his 2009 Acclaim. Frankly, he was better than many at staying ahead of the plane, stick and rudder skills. He will breeze thru the PPL for sure.