Requesting Advice on Mooney Purchase

[201er]

20 hours ago, Nate G said:

Hi Everyone,

I'm Nate, a student pilot going for my private about 26 hours in, and a prospective future Mooniac.

Hi Nate, that's awesome that you are working on private and aspiring to fly a Mooney. It's cool to dream big and let that help motivate you to get through your training. However, I can think of plenty of reasons not to be buying a Mooney at this stage.

Besides insurance, difficult to train in, and reasons already mentioned, the fact that it's statistically improbable you will ever fly it. According to AOPA the drop out rate is 60-80%:

"Approximately 60 percent of those who earn a student pilot certificate never earn a higher pilot certificate (e.g., private, recreational, or sport). And many more drop out before ever obtaining a student pilot certificate—placing the overall dropout rate at an estimated 70 to 80 percent."

The question of whether or not to buy a headset and which one to get is usually a more appropriate question at your level rather than buying an airplane. I'm usually talking students out of getting a $1000 headset just because of how likely they are to drop out and encourage them to go from something like a David Clark for $300 instead.

Furthermore, regardless how much research you do and how much advice you get, you simply aren't qualified to choose a plane for yourself. And I don't mean this in a disparaging way, I mean you don't yet know how you will use it. You don't know what flying characteristics you like, you don't know how you do on long flights, you don't know what kind of instrumentation you prefer, etc. You might think you'll be flying your plane coast to coast but until you try some shorter cross countries you won't know if that's really for you. There's just so many reasons to finish your private and discover your personal requirements in someone else's airplane so that you can end up in what's right for you. Best of luck.

[1980Mooney]

12 hours ago, Hank said:

Ignore the naysayers, @Nate G. Sure, insurance will be high your first year, but fly the Mooney at least 100 hours and it should come down. @Parker_Woodruff can give some insurance insight. 

I'm one of many people here who bought a Mooney early, in my case 5 weeks and 10 hours after my PPL checkride; by that time, I had a whopping 62 hours in two different Cessna 172s. It has been done many times before, it can be done again. 

Then again, I also think the price on this F is rather high. But right now, so is everything else. But be prepared for engine work at any time, which is true regardless of which used airplane you buy. If you don't need any, it's a bonus!

Good luck with everything, and fly safe!

 

49 minutes ago, KB4 said:

This is a good thing.  Chris Short from https://www.palmdr.com can fix the 480 and repair prices average 150-300.  

@Nate G  I agree - ignore the naysayers. Don't let them rain on your passion.

I purchased a J model 2 months before my PPL Checkride in a C172.  I was flying the J with a different flight instructor 6 weeks before the Checkride.  That was 22 years ago and I still own it.  

Although some here say otherwise, it was not hard to learn in.  I immediately was doing patter work and flying "Touch and Go's" in the J while finishing my PPL in the C172. After you fly the Mooney you will never want to go back to the C172 - if feels like a dog.

Although the Lycoming is high time it may still have many hours beyond TBO.

I see the tanks were resealed which is a big plus.

The mid-body Mooney is very versatile.  Frugal and fast!  Good Useful Load.  I used mine as the hauler of a family of 4 while they were growing up.  I did the Missile modification and added 300 HP and continued to use it to haul them to college and beyond.

A lot of pilots here suggest buying a cheaper version and selecting the modifications and upgrades yourself.  But the downside is that takes a lot of time and perhaps distance depending on where you are. (travel time, dropping off, one way driving, lots of downtime - especially now with supply issues, unexpected costs, rework/warranty, etc)  The current owner has put a ton of time into it.  You said it is the way you like it so it is ready for your mission.

Insurance may be high but a good way to bring it down is to get your Instrument ticket immediately.  I used my J model to train for the Instrument.  And yes I fly "touch and go's" in it all the time - there are some here on MS that are afraid to do it.

Regarding the Garmin (Apollo) 480, it is vastly superior to the Garmin GNS430.  That is why Garmin bought Apollo.  Some think it is better than the Garmin GTN750. in many ways - see Beechtalk below.  And I see it can be repaired much more cheaply than Garmin will rip you off.

https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=133445

 

https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=51797&start=15

https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=88535

I assume you have the budget to fly.  You say you have already made an offer.  The purchase price is just the first payment. Hangar, data subscriptions, Annuals, Insurance, etc.  It can be a money pit - costs/repairs can hit when totally unexpected.

Lastly - the final purchase price is subject to your prebuy inspection. You still have room to negotiate - and the ad did say "Price Negotiable"

 

[Nate G]

All,

I have to say I am amazed and grateful at all of the responses and support so far. You all have provided great information and I will certainly be able to make a well-informed decision on training, ownership, etc moving forward. I will certainly keep you all updated! Thanks again.

Nate

[Guest]

Moonies are far too complex for mere mortal pilots to own and fly, these pages are full of confirmations as to the difficulties you’ll encounter as a novice pilot!  I say BS, it’s just another airplane.

I’d buy what you want and can afford.  Hire an appropriate instructor and accept that it may take you a bit longer to learn to fly it safely only based on your low flying hours, not the complexity of the plane.

Clarence

 

[Eight8Victor]

On 11/7/2021 at 2:12 PM, Nate G said:

Hi Everyone,

I'm Nate, a student pilot going for my private about 26 hours in, and a prospective future Mooniac. I'm currently in the process of purchasing an M20F and was wondering if I could run this over with those experienced with Mooneys and flying in general; everything is all new for me!

I contemplated all makes and models from C172s to Arrows and considering that speed, efficiency, and good looks are at the top of my list, I decided that I must get a Mooney, probably an M20J I thought for its speed, style, and popularity. My goal is to finish my private pilot and go on to get my instrument rating.

I have been checking Trade-a-Plane, Controller, etc multiple times every day the past several months for the ideal aircraft for me and encountered the following 1969 M20F listed at $105,000:

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20F+EXEC+21&listing_id=2398664&s-type=aircraft

The airplane has all of the features I want in it: 201 mods and panel, Ovation-style paint, updated interior, electric gear, autopilot, decent avionics, IFR capable, among other things. The engine is nearing overhaul with a TTSN of 1875. I reviewed the logs and it looks like it has been flown regularly about 50-100 hours/year since the new engine was installed in 1996. It had good compressions every year up until the 2020 annual. After, it had all piston rings, intake manifold seals, and exhaust gaskets replaced and compressions were strong in the August 2021 annual.

I have offered full price as there has also been other interest in the airplane. However, as a part of due diligence, I would just like to make sure that the price I'd be paying is fair. What do you guys think? I will be putting the airplane through a thorough prebuy inspection including cylinder borescope.

Thanks!

Nate, congrats on making your offer. This is an amazing “F” model with all the right mods. If you are planning to use her to get your instrument ticket, you will be at TBO in no time. I've known pilots who reached double TBO and beyond but this high time is a negative. It really sucks when your plane needs a repair and it takes 3 months to complete, especially when she is new to you. That being said, I don't think the price is out of line in today’s market. The average asking price of the eight “J” models listed in TAP is $142,000, so the comments about this being in the 201 price range are incorrect. Airplanes are selling at asking price and the supply is less than half of what is was prior to this high demand. If inflation continues, as it seems is inevitable, you will be happy you got in now. Get a pre-buy and use it to negotiate down. Good luck and keep us posted.

[ZuluZulu]

On 11/8/2021 at 3:19 PM, M20Doc said:

Moonies are far too complex for mere mortal pilots to own and fly, these pages are full of confirmations as to the difficulties you’ll encounter as a novice pilot!  I say BS, it’s just another airplane.

I’d buy what you want and can afford.  Hire an appropriate instructor and accept that it may take you a bit longer to learn to fly it safely only based on your low flying hours, not the complexity of the plane.

Clarence

 

As usual, Clarence is right. 

If the guy loves flying enough to be this serious about buying a plane, I think his chances of finishing the license are higher than average. And if he doesn’t, he can always sell the plane. It’s already close to a runout so he shouldn’t take that big of a hit.

I think it’s great he’s found something he likes and is willing to spend his own money on. I say go for it! What a nice looking plane. No one has to know it’s not a J, since it sure looks like it and already has a J engine with the A3B6. Upgrade the panel and you’re done. There are worse ways to go about this and most of the J mods it has can’t even be easily found these days. 

If you’re comfortable with the plane and the price, get a good prebuy and go for it!

[ZuluZulu]

On 11/8/2021 at 6:27 PM, Eight8Victor said:

Nate, congrats on making your offer. This is an amazing “F” model with all the right mods. If you are planning to use her to get your instrument ticket, you will be at TBO in no time. I've known pilots who reached double TBO and beyond but this high time is a negative. It really sucks when your plane needs a repair and it takes 3 months to complete, especially when she is new to you. That being said, I don't think the price is out of line in today’s market. The average asking price of the eight “J” models listed in TAP is $142,000, so the comments about this being in the 201 price range are incorrect. Airplanes are selling at asking price and the supply is less than half of what is was prior to this high demand. If inflation continues, as it seems is inevitable, you will be happy you got in now. Get a pre-buy and use it to negotiate down. Good luck and keep us posted.

I agree with all of this except using the pre-buy as a cudgel just to lower the price (not that you personally mean this, but I hear that a lot). The purpose of the pre-buy is not a discount coupon but to confirm for you whether or not you want to buy the plane at all. It’s meant to verify airworthiness, confirm the seller’s description is accurate, ensure the installed equipment all works as expected, and find showstoppers. Yes, sometimes the price comes down afterward, but usually only for airworthiness items and it’s all negotiable. Not every seller will play ball. I didn’t get the full value back for the minor airworthiness issues we found in the price adjustment we agreed upon, but I still walked away happy because we found no showstoppers and we verified the plane had been regularly flying for years. Now, 200 hours of reliable service later, I would probably gladly pay even more than the deal I got because I found the right plane for me and that’s what this is all about. Not meaning to denigrate any master dealmakers here who got better deals than I did, but the pre-buy should be more than just a price negotiation. 

/2 cents

[1980Mooney]

29 minutes ago, ZuluZulu said:

I agree with all of this except using the pre-buy as a cudgel just to lower the price (not that you personally mean this, but I hear that a lot). The purpose of the pre-buy is not a discount coupon but to confirm for you whether or not you want to buy the plane at all. It’s meant to verify airworthiness, confirm the seller’s description is accurate, ensure the installed equipment all works as expected, and find showstoppers. Yes, sometimes the price comes down afterward, but usually only for airworthiness items and it’s all negotiable. Not every seller will play ball. I didn’t get the full value back for the minor airworthiness issues we found in the price adjustment we agreed upon, but I still walked away happy because we found no showstoppers and we verified the plane had been regularly flying for years. Now, 200 hours of reliable service later, I would probably gladly pay even more than the deal I got because I found the right plane for me and that’s what this is all about. Not meaning to denigrate any master dealmakers here who got better deals than I did, but the pre-buy should be more than just a price negotiation. 

/2 cents

You make a good point.  When I said earlier "You have room to negotiate" after getting the pre-buy I said that assuming that the pre-buy turns up issues that show the condition is not exactly as was claimed.  For instance when I did the pre-buy on my M20J many years ago it turned up a dented nose gear truss.  Yes that was an airworthiness issue which had to be repaired on the seller's dime before it could be sold.  It also turned up some non-airworthiness issues which would require expenditures at some point.  There was some modest negotiation/accommodation.  If everything turns out to be as claimed then you are exactly correct that there will be no adjustment in price.

[ZuluZulu]

2 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

You make a good point.  When I said earlier "You have room to negotiate" after getting the pre-buy I said that assuming that the pre-buy turns up issues that show the condition is not exactly as was claimed.  For instance when I did the pre-buy on my M20J many years ago it turned up a dented nose gear truss.  Yes that was an airworthiness issue which had to be repaired on the seller's dime before it could be sold.  It also turned up some non-airworthiness issues which would require expenditures at some point.  There was some modest negotiation/accommodation.  If everything turns out to be as claimed then you are exactly correct that there will be no adjustment in price.

This is very, very similar to my own experience, all the way down to the dented nose gear truss.  It's an expensive part!

One more pre-buy thought: if the pre-buy is nothing but a negotiation tool, saving a few thousand will bring you little comfort if you're regretting the entire purchase in a year.  No, it's not a guarantee, but a good shop will look at all the key items.

[ZuluZulu]

On 11/7/2021 at 11:18 AM, RoundTwo said:

I would check out Savvy Pre Buy. They will do a free log book review. Nothing trips my trigger other than the fresh annual. You need to make sure it was a real annual and not a “pencil whip” annual in anticipation of selling it. Take it to a good Mooney shop for a pre buy inspection. Cole Aviation in Dalton, GA would be my choice if the plane is in Huntsville.

Good luck,

R2

Not sure about this.  Savvy usually wants to be involved earlier.  The "free" logbook review is meant to advise you whether you should bother negotiating in the first place, but our friend here has already gone a lot further by making an offer.  

https://www.savvyaviation.com/savvyprebuy/

Based on everything Mike's ever written about this (that I've read), it's not the favored approach, but it could possibly still work.  They will probably want to have some questions answered in a pre-interview to clarify the scope of work and make sure you understand they're making exceptions from their usual practice before taking over pre-buy management.

Also, there's a lot of value in Savvy's institutional knowledge: their database of shops could be worth the price of admission alone if you're unfamiliar with the options in a given area.

[RoundTwo]

4 hours ago, ZuluZulu said:

Not sure about this.  Savvy usually wants to be involved earlier.  The "free" logbook review is meant to advise you whether you should bother negotiating in the first place, but our friend here has already gone a lot further by making an offer.  

https://www.savvyaviation.com/savvyprebuy/

Based on everything Mike's ever written about this (that I've read), it's not the favored approach, but it could possibly still work.  They will probably want to have some questions answered in a pre-interview to clarify the scope of work and make sure you understand they're making exceptions from their usual practice before taking over pre-buy management.

Also, there's a lot of value in Savvy's institutional knowledge: their database of shops could be worth the price of admission alone if you're unfamiliar with the options in a given area.

Thanks for the clarification.

R2