shawnd Posted November 1, 2021 Report Share Posted November 1, 2021 Just now, ArtVandelay said: Don’t forget the cost to pull the engine, ship it (twice) , then reinstalled it. The hidden costs ... Also, 2 strikes - did anyone inspect the engine mount for micro-fractures? That's 1.5-2K at places like AWI. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thinwing Posted November 1, 2021 Report Share Posted November 1, 2021 too bad about the prop strike....if it hadnt occurred his price at 133 k is spot on considering paint and especially avionics....i would not let that prop strike stop me though...I would get a quote for a tear down....remove the prop and dial the crank (if out of concentric move on,find out what happened to old prop...was it saved ,thrown away...ie did it go to a prop shop for a trade in?Lycoming SB regarding tear down recomendations is very conservative. and as has been noted not regulatory.....offer would be based on that prebuy...plus the prior damage history..the gear up.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philip_g Posted November 1, 2021 Report Share Posted November 1, 2021 (edited) Seller updated the listing here. He's increasing price 5k and having the engine torn down and inspected. I guess it's 135k if you want it and 140k if you want it airworthy? Edited November 1, 2021 by philip_g 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 1, 2021 Report Share Posted November 1, 2021 The engine does NOT require a complete tear down, it requires compliance with AD 2004-10-14 which forces compliance with SB475C. Inspection of the crankshaft gear and replacement of the bolt and lock plate. SB 533 is Lycoming version of prop strike inspection, complete disassembly and inspection. Most insurance companies will pay for this level of inspection , but it’s legally not required. Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammdo Posted November 1, 2021 Report Share Posted November 1, 2021 @M20Doc, what about a 2nd strike on the same engine/crank - especially in such a short time? While tear down would appear not required, has Lycoming ever stated how that should be reviewed? Just interested if there is a precedent... -Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliffy Posted November 2, 2021 Report Share Posted November 2, 2021 5 minutes ago, hammdo said: @M20Doc, what about a 2nd strike on the same engine/crank - especially in such a short time? While tear down would appear not required, has Lycoming ever stated how that should be reviewed? Just interested if there is a precedent... -Don A pop strike is a prop strike. The AD is legally required to make the airplane airworthy The SB is optional just like the purchase is optional. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LANCECASPER Posted November 2, 2021 Report Share Posted November 2, 2021 Bottom line if they skimped on this, what other shortcuts have they taken in maintenance? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tgardnerh Posted November 2, 2021 Report Share Posted November 2, 2021 I checked with Penn Yann and the quote was 11k and that includes the mags Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI'm curious--did they give any indication of how often IRANs for prop strikes turn up hidden issues (i.e. something that could break later even though the crank dialed fine)Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted November 2, 2021 Report Share Posted November 2, 2021 44 minutes ago, tgardnerh said: I'm curious--did they give any indication of how often IRANs for prop strikes turn up hidden issues (i.e. something that could break later even though the crank dialed fine) Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk There are two things that get mentioned… counterbalance weights don’t work right, and hairline cracks… We have an MSer that has lost a family member… using the dial the crank method… loss was during ferry, with a different prop…. Plane and pilot were lost… Fortunately, the mystery has been removed… the engine companies give definitions for what a ground strike is… and the procedure to follow when it happens… Clarence has given a great review of the process above…. To answer Don’s question… do they account for multiple strikes when determining next steps…. When following the procedures… the engine parts are either serviceable, or not serviceable… meeting dimensions, and being crack free… If it passes these tests… it is the same as not being in an accident… Ground strikes can be incredibly expensive…. Insurance covers the basics… What you do after that only has to make sense to your finance administrator… Some ground strikes can be turned into upgrades… The insurance covers what they cover… a lesson on betterment is helpful for the rest… There are some things that will come out of the pocket of the new owner…. When somebody else has the ground strike your prop… this is a major bummer… On the Ovation scale… ground strike fix…. Turned into a 70amu upgrade…. Surprise! Engine OH, new prop, R&R, engine mount inspection, shipping, and a touch of paint… the works…. If you want a zero time engine… this is a great candidate… again use caution when considering something like this… the overhauler is going to have rules you will need to follow… You may want to trade this one for a factory OH or reman… see what their rules are… There may be a small chance the crank can’t be re-used for some reason… know what those chances are before committing… Always recognize… that some planes are better for other buyers… If not familiar with engine OHs… this one would be a big step… There are plenty of people around here that would prefer a fully run-out engine when buying a Mooney… they are looking forward to the OH process…. PP thoughts only, not a mechanic… Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliffy Posted November 2, 2021 Report Share Posted November 2, 2021 3 hours ago, tgardnerh said: I'm curious--did they give any indication of how often IRANs for prop strikes turn up hidden issues (i.e. something that could break later even though the crank dialed fine) Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk As a case in point- on my airplane (D model) it suffered a prop strike 8 years before i got it and they dialed the crank OK. When I went to overhaul it 8 years after I bought it the crank had a crack internally in the front bearing area found when they did the magnaflux check. I bought a certified rebuilt crank to replace it. I knew going in it was a "dialed crank" and it went 16 years without failure. Your millage may vary! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 2, 2021 Report Share Posted November 2, 2021 10 hours ago, hammdo said: @M20Doc, what about a 2nd strike on the same engine/crank - especially in such a short time? While tear down would appear not required, has Lycoming ever stated how that should be reviewed? Just interested if there is a precedent... -Don It would need the same inspection per the AD. I don’t know of any limitation on the number of prop strikes a crankshaft can have. A crack or a bend beyond limits would render it scrap not the number of impacts. Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A64Pilot Posted November 2, 2021 Report Share Posted November 2, 2021 (edited) 12 hours ago, M20Doc said: The engine does NOT require a complete tear down, it requires compliance with AD 2004-10-14 which forces compliance with SB475C. Inspection of the crankshaft gear and replacement of the bolt and lock plate. SB 533 is Lycoming version of prop strike inspection, complete disassembly and inspection. Most insurance companies will pay for this level of inspection , but it’s legally not required. Clarence This is the answer, but if memory serves you still have to R&R the engine and open the Accy gearbox, and that’s a pretty big chunk of change. Many choose to do the SB largely because insurence will pay for it, and to a great extent it renews a lot of the parts that wear in the bottom end and can greatly increase time to overhaul depending on how many hours are on the engine. When I prop struck my Maule, I overhauled it, Insurence paid for a tear down and compliance with the SB, which was a pretty big chunk of the overhaul and as I was at 1800 hours or so it seemed to be the smart thing to do. Point I’m making is, it depends on your situation as to how far past the AD you take it, but the AD must be complied with. Edited November 2, 2021 by A64Pilot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWJR Posted November 2, 2021 Report Share Posted November 2, 2021 Kudos to the owner for being honest and forthright as to the prop strike. Looks like a beautiful plane I’m sure he’ll get it sold.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DXB Posted November 2, 2021 Report Share Posted November 2, 2021 14 hours ago, M20Doc said: The engine does NOT require a complete tear down, it requires compliance with AD 2004-10-14 which forces compliance with SB475C. Inspection of the crankshaft gear and replacement of the bolt and lock plate. SB 533 is Lycoming version of prop strike inspection, complete disassembly and inspection. Most insurance companies will pay for this level of inspection , but it’s legally not required. Clarence This statement should be enshrined somewhere on Mooneyspace. It has been a perpetual source of confusion for folks, including me. The subjective severity of the strike might be a reasonable guide for how far one goes - some very minor contacts that don't trash the prop still meet the Lycoming definition of a strike: "Sudden RPM drop on impact to water, tall grass, or similar yielding medium where propeller damage does not usually occur." A strike that led to replacing the prop however may be severe enough to merit the full monty. And if someone else owned the plane when it happened, it could be very hard to figure out how bad it was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tgardnerh Posted November 2, 2021 Report Share Posted November 2, 2021 The thing I keep coming back to, in addition to the anecdotes about engines that dialed fine but failed magnaflux (or worse) later, is that the insurance companies *want* you to do the SB. They're paying for the teardown for sure, and they're paying for the crash *if* it happens later (and you're still with them) and they go out of their way to encourage you to do the whole SB, not just the AD. Since they're not in the business of wasting money, and they probably value the life of you and your family less than you do, this seems to suggest that they know something about the relative risks involved. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Lloyd Posted November 2, 2021 Report Share Posted November 2, 2021 Since insurance companies will usually cover the cost of addressing the SB, consider what happens if you take advantage of their generosity. Anything that is deemed unairworthy not caused by the prop strike must be repaired of replaced at your expense. Got a couple pitted tappets at 1000 hours? They may have gone another 1000 hours. Shop has to replace them or they won't put your engine back together. There's two grand. And that camshaft looks a little iffy, $500 to regrind or $1500 for new. I don't think you want to hang your engine on those motor mount bushings, another $500. Can be a two edged sword. What happens if you don't take advantage of their generosity? Two years down the road, you want to sell your airplane...you can see the other posts as to what can happen. Or maybe two years down the road the flange breaks off the crankshaft and you set you pride and joy down softly in a beanfield. Nobody hurt, aircraft has very minor damage, you can't find the prop and the engine is toast. Will the insurance company repair your engine now? I wouldn't want to be involved in that sad conversation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliffy Posted November 2, 2021 Report Share Posted November 2, 2021 18 minutes ago, tgardnerh said: The thing I keep coming back to, in addition to the anecdotes about engines that dialed fine but failed magnaflux (or worse) later, is that the insurance companies *want* you to do the SB. They're paying for the teardown for sure, and they're paying for the crash *if* it happens later (and you're still with them) and they go out of their way to encourage you to do the whole SB, not just the AD. Since they're not in the business of wasting money, and they probably value the life of you and your family less than you do, this seems to suggest that they know something about the relative risks involved. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Or THEIR liability ? If not torn down completely. Especially if Lycoming has the SB and its recommendations. (Which was brought about by liability and lawyers after decades of dialing the crank) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tgardnerh Posted November 2, 2021 Report Share Posted November 2, 2021 Or THEIR liability ? If not torn down completely. Especially if Lycoming has the SB and its recommendations. (Which was brought about by liability and lawyers after decades of dialing the crank) Exactly!! All i mean is that however invested they are in your airplane not falling out of the sky over mountains, you probably care even more!If they didn't think there was a serious concern about hidden damage, they would be perfectly happy to have you make the airplane airworthy with just the AD. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 2, 2021 Report Share Posted November 2, 2021 9 hours ago, A64Pilot said: This is the answer, but if memory serves you still have to R&R the engine and open the Accy gearbox, and that’s a pretty big chunk of change. Many choose to do the SB largely because insurence will pay for it, and to a great extent it renews a lot of the parts that wear in the bottom end and can greatly increase time to overhaul depending on how many hours are on the engine. When I prop struck my Maule, I overhauled it, Insurence paid for a tear down and compliance with the SB, which was a pretty big chunk of the overhaul and as I was at 1800 hours or so it seemed to be the smart thing to do. Point I’m making is, it depends on your situation as to how far past the AD you take it, but the AD must be complied with. I’ve replaced the oil pump in a J model without removing the engine, so AD compliance is possible on the wing. I’ve done it on and F model as well. Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricJ Posted November 3, 2021 Report Share Posted November 3, 2021 2 hours ago, M20Doc said: I’ve replaced the oil pump in a J model without removing the engine, so AD compliance is possible on the wing. I’ve done it on and F model as well. Clarence I think Alan Fox has mentioned doing the gear inspections in-place without removing the engine a number of times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertGary1 Posted November 3, 2021 Report Share Posted November 3, 2021 On 11/1/2021 at 10:43 AM, shawnd said: Teardown inspection typically costs ~13K and mag overhaul around 2,750. This is very recent data from multiple shops around the country. Does Lycomjng actually call for a tear down? I though they actually only call for pulling the accessory case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWJR Posted November 3, 2021 Report Share Posted November 3, 2021 Read post #31. From M20C DocThe AD ( mandatory)calls for dial the crank- replace the gear bolt and lock plate.The SB ( optional) calls for full case split inspection Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted November 3, 2021 Report Share Posted November 3, 2021 Read post #31. From M20C DocThe AD ( mandatory)calls for dial the crank- replace the gear bolt and lock plate.The SB ( optional) calls for full case split inspection Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkCan you do the required AD work without splitting the case? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 3, 2021 Report Share Posted November 3, 2021 45 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said: Can you do the required AD work without splitting the case? Yes, in most cases. Remove the mags, vacuum pump, prop governor then the accessory cover, do the AD and SB 475 gear inspection, bolt and lock plate replacement then reassemble the engine. Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted November 3, 2021 Report Share Posted November 3, 2021 Yes, in most cases. Remove the mags, vacuum pump, prop governor then the accessory cover, do the AD and SB 475 gear inspection, bolt and lock plate replacement then reassemble the engine. ClarenceAnd dialing the crank as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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