Low time pilot - intimidated by Mooney

[bmcconnaha]

@40_Year_Dream I have an electronic POH for a 2900lb gross J (what your clubs is) if you want it.  Just shoot me a message.  As for the cardinal, get your time and move along.  They are dogs.  Poor climbing, slow dogs.  Have enough time in one to know better.  Only thing they are is easy to get in and out.  If you just need to master the prop, no big deal.  Becomes easier when you think of it as a manual transmission. With fine pitch (full forward) being 1st gear.  The prop is really pretty easy, and mine moves very few times in flight.  Full forward until top of climb.  Then cruise rpm.  At top of descent 2200.  When I'm in the pattern and below governing speed, my last gump check I move the prop full forward.  That way you don't get the Rev up that alarms an unsuspecting passenger.  That's really all there is to it.  Plan your descent to cover approx 5 mi per thousand feet down at 500/min.  Arrive at pattern altitude far enough away from the airport you can get it below both flap and gear ext speeds (100kts).  Nothing really crazy about it.  I suspect the visual of moving MUCH faster approaching the airport when you first rode in the Mooney was eye opening, and that got in your head slightly.  Good luck, get a CFI and go for it.  

Bryan 

[40_Year_Dream]

Thank bmcconnaha - but the actual POH, with added sections for installed electronics, has been scanned and provided to club members. I skimmed through it this evening, and will get a paper copy printed (too much of a Luddite to do that much reading on a screen, I guess). The 2 sessions so far in the Cardinal have been pretty much as you describe. Just a few more things to remember to do. Have another scheduled for next week.

I will order Don Kaye's video as well - should be helpful.

[affricate]

On 10/26/2021 at 6:51 PM, tony said:

Just don't forget to put the gear down and go have some fun.  Remember GUMPS and take an instructor,  You'll have a blast and probably not look back.  Life is short.

That's what I'm saying! I went from a 172 to a M20M! 

[affricate]

2 hours ago, 40_Year_Dream said:

Thank bmcconnaha - but the actual POH, with added sections for installed electronics, has been scanned and provided to club members. I skimmed through it this evening, and will get a paper copy printed (too much of a Luddite to do that much reading on a screen, I guess). The 2 sessions so far in the Cardinal have been pretty much as you describe. Just a few more things to remember to do. Have another scheduled for next week.

I will order Don Kaye's video as well - should be helpful.

I purchased these videos, they were very helpful.

 

[jaylw314]

2 hours ago, 40_Year_Dream said:

The 2 sessions so far in the Cardinal have been pretty much as you describe. 

But you're looking good doing it! 

[carusoam]

2 hours ago, 40_Year_Dream said:

Thank bmcconnaha - but the actual POH, with added sections for installed electronics, has been scanned and provided to club members. I skimmed through it this evening, and will get a paper copy printed (too much of a Luddite to do that much reading on a screen, I guess). The 2 sessions so far in the Cardinal have been pretty much as you describe. Just a few more things to remember to do. Have another scheduled for next week.

I will order Don Kaye's video as well - should be helpful.

Speaking of transition training…. Don Kaye is quite the guru…

Is there a resource for training at the club?

Or is it a bunch of pilots with similar non-Mooney back grounds?

 

I first found the value of the extra expertise in aviation during the check ride for the PPL…

Mid check ride, the DPE gave a demonstration on how best to fly a C152…. 
Hands-off, steep turns, maintaining speed and altitude…. Nicely trimmed out.

(I must have been sawing at the yoke in comparison )
 

Wondered why the CFIs I was working with didn’t demonstrate that level of precision…
 

It turns out the C152 can be flown with precision… similar to an M20J… every knot means something…

Controlling the extra knots, or the too few knots is key to each maneuver…

Hopefully you have a Mooney CFI to really demonstrate the skill that the plane was born with…

Blame the ‘system’…  often CFIs are in the roll for a set number of hours… a stop along the way to their next level… flying jets….

The coolest CFIs enjoy training… even when they fly jets on the side….  

Don’t be afraid to ask for the Mooney specific CFI…. 

You might be paying for somebody else to experiment along with you….

The same is true with other airframes…

You just want the guy who has paid attention to every knot of the airframe you want to learn…

PP thoughts only… my first Mooney transition training was mediocre at best…

It helps to know that it exists… and how best to ask for it…

PP thoughts only not a CFI…

Best regards,

-a-

[40_Year_Dream]

Got a short intro flight yesterday (3/9) preflight, start, take off, extra large pattern, landing ((didn't have a lot of time).  Was less overwhelming than I'd feared. Really, just 1 more lever to deal with - (gear). Landing went OK, for a first try. I really liked the 'positive' feel to the controls (vs. the Cessna). I think I'm going to like this bird. More sessions scheduled for next week (after the latest storm front has passed - ).

[steingar]

At the age of 53 I transitioned into the Mooney after flying a Cherokee.  It took every minute of the ten hours of dual, but I was flying and I was safe, though I really could have used more instruction.  Contact that to the 40 or 50 I spent learning to fly and I think there OP has his answer.

Hiring a CFI to go with is a barely noticeable expense the way things are.

 

[flyboy0681]

7 hours ago, steingar said:

At the age of 53 I transitioned into the Mooney after flying a Cherokee.  It took every minute of the ten hours of dual, but I was flying and I was safe, though I really could have used more instruction.  Contact that to the 40 or 50 I spent learning to fly and I think there OP has his answer.

Hiring a CFI to go with is a barely noticeable expense the way things are.

 

At age 53 I was doing my instrument rating. No easy feat at that age.

[jaylw314]

8 hours ago, 40_Year_Dream said:

Got a short intro flight yesterday (3/9) preflight, start, take off, extra large pattern, landing ((didn't have a lot of time).  Was less overwhelming than I'd feared. Really, just 1 more lever to deal with - (gear). Landing went OK, for a first try. I really liked the 'positive' feel to the controls (vs. the Cessna). I think I'm going to like this bird. More sessions scheduled for next week (after the latest storm front has passed - ).

The gear's simple, just need to drill that GUMPS or equivalent checklist in your head.  The hard part is keeping it there

The short, heavy throw of the yoke makes it feel like a sports car compared to a Skyhawk or Cherokee, but it can get tiring so it does make you get good at trimming.

Welcome to the club!

[StevenL757]

8 hours ago, 40_Year_Dream said:

Got a short intro flight yesterday (3/9) preflight, start, take off, extra large pattern, landing ((didn't have a lot of time).  Was less overwhelming than I'd feared. Really, just 1 more lever to deal with - (gear). Landing went OK, for a first try. I really liked the 'positive' feel to the controls (vs. the Cessna). I think I'm going to like this bird. More sessions scheduled for next week (after the latest storm front has passed - ).

I just got around to reading this whole thread for the first time, and at the risk of sounding like a preacher, I really admire the way you introduced yourself, spoke about your thoughts and feelings regarding transition, and asked for guidance.  I appreciated your candor and tone with regards to the responsible and realistic approach you seem to be taking toward your transition...and training in general.  Your attitude is exactly what I'd look for in a competent and safe pilot.

Based on this, I anticipate you will make a seamless transition to the "J" model, assuming your training is of the highest caliber.  I'm sure you've experienced by now that Mooney flight controls are incredibly responsive and solid.  You'll love the heck out of the airplane, so I'm looking forward to your future posts and overall progress.  Thank you for sharing your training journey.

Steve

[MatthiasArnold]

My 2 cents (or even less) to the wealth of valuable information provided above.
Mooney pattern work

When my FI introduced me to Mooney flying (M20J initially) we not just flew standard patterns but "enlarged" patterns including a very short climb/cruise/descent section:

• Short description (standard left hand pattern, airport altitude 620ft, pattern altitude 1500ft)
  • takeoff, left turn into crosswind, left turn into downwind
  • on downwind proceed straight ahead climb to a simulated cruise altitude (in my case just 500ft above pattern altitude = 2000ft) (items: accelerate, close cowling, set cruise power, lean, ..)
  • when at cruise altitude 170-180degrees standard rate turn to the right (e.g. runway heading)
  • approach briefing and items, descent to pattern altitude
  • turn right to enter center of downwind at 45degrees angle
  • ...
• The whole procedure takes around 9mins instead of 4mins (short pattern at my home base).
• When you look at this pattern from top it resembles somewhat an "eight".

I like this approach for several reasons:

• It better resembles/simulates real-world flying including after take off, cruise, approach and final procedures, including checklists.
• The standard rate turn to the right during the cruise section gives you 1min to take a breath and prepare next steps.
• The pattern at my home base is smaller than standard (e.g. just 0.65NM final instead of 1NM) which would impose additional stress on the workload when flying just the pattern 

Entering and leaving a Mooney in a "stylish" way

Maybe you are all aware of this procedure:

• While standing on the RHS wing grab the center tube above the glare shield (next to the whiskey compass) with your left hand and the handle at the upper inner side of the door-frame with your right hand.
• Position your left foot in front of the co-pilot's seat
• In a sweeping motion enter the aircraft. if you are "dynamic" and positioned the arm rest in the up position you might make it all the way to the pilot's seat in one single motion.
• Leave the aircraft in the opposite way (maybe move to the co-pilot's seat before)
• Its a good idea to position items like kneeboard, keys, .. on the glare shield (without touching the windshield) prior entering. Ask me how I know.

Best,

Matthias

P.S: I started flying Mooney's at the age of 52 (M20J), 55 (M20R), 56 (IR rating) - it's doable at advanced age - no worries.

[40_Year_Dream]

Ok, after a total of 3 times in the Mooney with the club instructor (about 3 hours total), my general impressions are:

a) Landings aren't THAT big a deal - get the speed right, and it's not that much different than landing an old Cherokee. Really.  (Although I have to admit I've not tried a short-field landing, yet).

b) Things happen faster - this bird is up to pattern height by the time I turn crosswind - definitely got a few more 'ponies' up front than your typical trainer! (compared to a tired ol' Cherokee that takes a full pattern just to get to 1000 feet)

c) Gotta use trim, frequently - especially with lots of pitch change from the flaps. As far as those wheels - can NOT forget that white knob. 

d) I really like the 'positive' solid feel of the controls, both on the ground, and in the air.

e) The higher g-force in practicing steep turns is surprising, not what I'm used to, but not a problem.

f) Climbing in and out requires a refined technique.

(Now, the club bird is going to be out for a couple weeks for panel work and ADS-B addition, so the next lesson will have to wait.)

[rbp]

23 minutes ago, 40_Year_Dream said:

a) Landings aren't THAT big a deal - get the speed right, and it's not that much different than landing an old Cherokee. Really.  (Although I have to admit I've not tried a short-field landing, yet).

 

there's a bit of a 'coffin corner' mentality here.

Mooneys are not forgiving if flown too slow.

Mooneys land long (100ft per knot above landing speed) if flown too fast on final.

People like "soft"-ish landings so they carry a little power, which means a flatter approach.

When windy/x-wind, people fly even faster and with 10deg/no flaps.  

All this contributes to a variety of difficulties yielding a variety of techniques, lots of debates, and a mentality that Mooneys are difficult to land.

I think the real issue is that the typical cessna/piper trainer is too forgiving and people coming out of those airplanes into a mooney don't have good enough technique, esp when Mooneys require precise speeds/power/rudder.

Edited May 2, 2022 by rbp

[Jcmtl]

23 minutes ago, rbp said:

there's a bit of a 'coffin corner' mentality here.

Mooneys are not forgiving if flown too slow.

Mooneys land long (100ft per knot above landing speed) if flown too fast on final.

People like "soft"-ish landings so they carry a little power, which means a flatter approach.

When windy/x-wind, people fly even faster and with 10deg/no flaps.  

All this contributes to a variety of difficulties yielding a variety of techniques, lots of debates, and a mentality that Mooneys are difficult to land.

I think the real issue is that the typical cessna/piper trainer is too forgiving and people coming out of those airplanes into a mooney don't have good enough technique, esp when Mooneys require precise speeds/power/rudder.

things start to get interesting with short fields (2000 ft or less) and displaced thresholds because of obstacles like tall trees on final.  I've had a few close calls in the last few weeks (all in the aim of finding remote fields with cheap gas) where i've had to slam on the brakes at the end of the runway because of a steep approach and too much float.   When you add gusts, crosswind and wind shear things get even sketchier.  If it bounces, you only have 1 shot maybe 2 at saving the landing before you are forced to go around.

Basically, stick to long wide runways until you feel comfortable.

[rbp]

1 minute ago, Jcmtl said:

things start to get interesting with short fields (2000 ft or less) and displaced thresholds because of obstacles like tall trees on final.  I've had a few close calls in the last few weeks (all in the aim of finding remote fields with cheap gas) where i've had to slam on the brakes at the end of the runway because of a steep approach and too much float.   When you add gusts, crosswind and wind shear things get even sketchier.  If it bounces, you only have 1 shot maybe 2 at saving the landing before you are forced to go around.

Basically, stick to long wide runways until you feel comfortable.

Float is a function of airspeed, not approach angle. I nearly always fly a steep approach with full flaps and the power off

[Jcmtl]

1 minute ago, rbp said:

Float is a function of airspeed, not approach angle. I nearly always fly a steep approach with full flaps and the power off

I'm not sure about that.  When i fly a steep approach at 80 it needs to bleed off a lot more energy than flying a shallow approach at 80 with power that instantly settles on the ground when i cut the power.  

The steep approach at 80 is with power off.  

[rbp]

3 minutes ago, Jcmtl said:

I'm not sure about that.  When i fly a steep approach at 80 it needs to bleed off a lot more energy than flying a shallow approach at 80 with power that instantly settles on the ground when i cut the power.  

The steep approach at 80 is with power off.  

Because you're still "flying" with the wheels touching on a shallow approach at 80.  you have to chop the power when the runway is assured. 

In any event, 80 is too fast, even in my Bravo. 75 over the fence normal, 70 short field. So you're floating 500' to 1000' feet..

[rbp]

ok, the M20C POH says 80mph, which is 70knots. makes sense. are you carrying power on the steep approach? 

[Hank]

40 minutes ago, rbp said:

ok, the M20C POH says 80mph, which is 70knots. makes sense. are you carrying power on the steep approach? 

My C shows stall speed to be 64 mph gear down Takeoff flaps (how I frequently land). So 1.3 x 64 = 83 mph on Final at gross, slowing to 1.2 x 64 = 77 mph over the imaginary fence at gross. Now subtract 5 mph for every 300 lb below gross you are for that landing.

That's why I use 75 - 70 mph, they have nice marks on the ASI.

Fly downwind and base at 90 mph, roll wings level on final at 85 mph, slowing to weight-based speed on short final, throttle to idle when the field is made.

I was based at a 3000' obstructed field for my first 7 years of ownership. Also used to visit a nearby 2000' grass strip, max load 2 people and half tanks. Now that grass field is 500nm away . . . .

[rbp]

34 minutes ago, Hank said:

My C shows stall speed to be 64 mph gear down Takeoff flaps (how I frequently land). So 1.3 x 64 = 83 mph on Final at gross, slowing to 1.2 x 64 = 77 mph over the imaginary fence at gross. Now subtract 5 mph for every 300 lb below gross you are for that landing.

That's why I use 75 - 70 mph, they have nice marks on the ASI.

Fly downwind and base at 90 mph, roll wings level on final at 85 mph, slowing to weight-based speed on short final, throttle to idle when the field is made.

I was based at a 3000' obstructed field for my first 7 years of ownership. Also used to visit a nearby 2000' grass strip, max load 2 people and half tanks. Now that grass field is 500nm away . . . .

Sounds right. Why don’t you use full flaps? 

Edited May 2, 2022 by rbp

[Hank]

21 minutes ago, rbp said:

Sounds right. Why don’t you use full flaps? 

[rbp]

Half flaps on base. Check. 

To me “ Extend flaps on final as required “ means full flaps. It increases the descent angle and lowers the stall speed and approach speed. What’s the drawback? 
 

[Hank]

53 minutes ago, rbp said:

Half flaps on base. Check. 

To me “ Extend flaps on final as required “ means full flaps. It increases the descent angle and lowers the stall speed and approach speed. What’s the drawback? 
 

Flaps, like throttle, elevator and trim, are adjusted as needed / desired to hit your intended point of landing. "As needed" is not the same thing as "Full deflection"--had that been the intent, they'd have said "FLAPS--Landing". I adjust the flaps as needed, just as I adjust the throttle and the elevator and the trim.

When I land, the flap indicator is often very near the Takeoff mark, especially when I fly solo.

[rbp]

7 minutes ago, Hank said:

Flaps, like throttle, elevator and trim, are adjusted as needed / desired to hit your intended point of landing. "As needed" is not the same thing as "Full deflection"--had that been the intent, they'd have said "FLAPS--Landing". I adjust the flaps as needed, just as I adjust the throttle and the elevator and the trim.

When I land, the flap indicator is often very near the Takeoff mark, especially when I fly solo.

i'm which of these factors (1-4) or glidepaths (from the FAA Airplane Flying Handbook) you find sufficiently objectionable not to use full flaps.