Low time pilot - intimidated by Mooney

[thinwing]

it depends of course and what your used to flying and total experience level....before my Bravo i had maybe 10 or so rental hours in a J decades prior....I think it was about 50 hrs in the Bravo that i felt confident....of course some aircraft ,like a Pitts S1S ,i never relaxed on landings....ever...it was always a high anxiety moment

[Jocbay]

I bought a J after 30 years off, I’m 66, and only having a couple hundred hours then.  I flew a 172 for 8 hours and got comfortable flying, but my landing weren’t anything to write home about.  I moved to the Mooney an found that once I got my checklists dialed-in it wasn’t long before managing a complex plane wasn’t hard. I also found it easier to land than the Cessna because it is  more stable in decent and has more solid feeling controls. 

On landings I f I came in too fast (even 5 knots) I would float along often ballooning or maybe catching a gust and then having to deal with that, sometimes more successfully than others.  A stable decent at the correct speed sets up a pretty easy landing.  Perhaps not a perfect one at first; but one you won’t be ashamed of. 

You have a lot more recent experience than I; use your checklists, hit your speed on final, check the gear 3 times and you’ll be fine. 
 

jb

[jaylw314]

15 hours ago, 40_Year_Dream said:

I don't know a lot about the history of this particular plane, but it does look like it changed hands a few times. 3 club members / instructors flew it back from the East coast recently: several other members in the club have have flown it already, and there's been a few bugs to work out. So far, the biggest issue has been a prop overhaul for leaking seals. An ADS-B install is in the works.

The plan is to get my complex endorsement in the Mooney - the Cardinal is intended as a step on the way to that. (Gotta admit - those big doors do make it a  lot easier to get into the seats!)

Ooh, the Cardinal was second on my list if I couldn't find a Mooney, I just like the way it looks.  

That's awesome that your club has a J.  None of the clubs around here had Mooney's, so I was out of luck there.

It's unfortunate that the club only has other high-winged planes.  Another low-wing plane would help you get acclimated to the slight differences, like more ground effect (since the wings are lower to the ground). 

[Lance Link]

I bought my Mooney at 63 with about 250 hours in very simple aircraft.  The transition is not difficult if you have enough training to the point where you are entirely, entirely comfortable.  Learning to land is a task just keep at it with good instruction until you get it.  Buy Don Kaye’s video.  

[40_Year_Dream]

Thanks all for the encouragement - it is appreciated.

FWIW, I do have some hours in a Cherokee / Warrior (3 different ones actually). One was damaged by a bad crosswind landing, and is still under repair as far as I know, one (the Warrior) was a rental whilst on vacation away from home, and one (from a local flight school) is so far 'out of rig' so that I refuse to fly that thing - anymore. I really prefer the sight picture of a low wing - so I'm not too concerned about that aspect. It'll be nice having a few more 'ponies' up front, compared to a tired flight school Cherokee 140.

I will proceed - however West Michigan is not so friendly for VFR pilots in the fall & winter - so training opportunities may be a bit harder to come by. 

[DXB]

On 10/26/2021 at 9:18 PM, 40_Year_Dream said:

I've recently joined a flying club, which has, in addition to a 150, a pair of 172s, and a 177 - a recently acquired M20J, N727KC. As a low time pilot, with most of my 150 or so hours in 172s, the club Mooney is looking like a serious challenge to learn. At 61 years old (had a late start getting the PP certificate), it seems to take longer than I'd like to learn things (but I can learn, given enough practice). I've had a few hours in the Cardinal, but am not quite yet at the point the instructor is ready to turn me loose in that. I did ride along in the back seat of the Mooney FWIW, when someone else was getting an intro - and liked the ride!

Given all that, getting to my personal goal of VFR proficiency in the club Mooney seems almost as big a challenge as passing my PP checkride. Am I making this out to be harder than it really is?

I got my PPL and my Mooney at the tender age of 40.   After 75 hours in a Piper Warrior for my PPL, the Mooney initially felt like fire breathing monster with uncontrollable speed when one wants to land.  10 hours later it becomes pretty manageable but still not really natural.  50-100 hours later it becomes mostly second nature, and one's zone of comfort with the plane continues to widen incrementally with effort after that.   However, even from the first hour, the Mooney makes  your trainer feel like a complete piece of junk in comparison.  Mooney pilot friends don't let friends fly C172s!!   

[sleeper-319]

Something I found useful toward the end of transition training was to fly with different load configurations so you can get a feel for the differences in how it flies (and particularly how it lands) at max gross vs when light.

[Utah20Gflyer]

I bought my G model Mooney with 130 hours.   I didn’t find the transition to be very difficult although I did get my complex in an arrow and put about 15 hours on that before transitioning.   So it wasn’t straight from a 172 to a Mooney, but 50 hours of Mooney time and you will wonder why you were so nervous about it.   Provided you have reasonable speed control and landings just go up with a good instructor and figure it out.   I wouldn’t think it’s worth an intermediate step if that is where you want to end up.  Mooneys just aren’t that hard a plane to fly and the time spent in the cardinal is not going to add as much comfort with a Mooney as hours in the Mooney.  

[hubcap]

I purchased my M20K last year at the age of 59. I have been able to log almost 200 hrs this year. My experience, like most, was with Pipers and Cessnas. The biggest difference is the absolute necessity to fly the correct airspeed on landing. These planes are made for cross-country flying and you will likely have no trouble learning to enjoy the speed of travel the Mooney provides.

The main difference in handling the aircraft is the absolute necessity to fly the correct speeds in the pattern. 

Buy Don Kaye's video and fly the correct speeds, you will be hooked.

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, hubcap said:

I purchased my M20K last year at the age of 59. I have been able to log almost 200 hrs this year. My experience, like most, was with Pipers and Cessnas. The biggest difference is the absolute necessity to fly the correct airspeed on landing. These planes are made for cross-country flying and you will likely have no trouble learning to enjoy the speed of travel the Mooney provides.

The main difference in handling the aircraft is the absolute necessity to fly the correct speeds in the pattern. 

Buy Don Kaye's video and fly the correct speeds, you will be hooked.

I will add a little counter to the must fly right speed idea.  You need to be on speed to land.  But said another way, don't try and land if you aren't on speed.

What I mean is, at some point you might find yourself at a big airport and ATC is telling you to keep your speed up to keep the flow - maybe you are in sequence ahead of a jet behind you and they ask for best speed.  So then you find yourself near flare and still 10 knots or greater over the speed you should be at.  This is the setup for a classic 3 bounce porpoise and then a prop strike.  There is no need to do that.  Of course you can go around and by all means do that if you need to.  But my point is, don't try and land a Mooney that is not ready to land.  If you are on a long enough runway you can just float along bleeding off the speed and it will land when it is ready.  That is not ideal like crossing the threshold on speed but anyway the point being Mooney's don't land just by pushing the nose down.  Opposite.  hold it off,  Make a game of trying to float as long as possible and then when the airplane is ready it will settle in.  That is a bit different than say a Cessna 172 which while it might not be ideal you can sort of force it to land when you want to touch the ground without really being so much on speed.  With the mooney, letting it settle in, you learn the feel for what is that good speed.

[Rocket 305]

On 10/26/2021 at 8:29 PM, 40_Year_Dream said:

Haven't even touched the controls of the Mooney yet (other than just sitting in it on the ground), so there's nothing specific at this point. Really, just the overall impression of what all's going on with a fast complex bird (when compared to a 172)/

The instructor I'm working with (who I informed that the Mooney was my goal) recommended getting some time in the Cardinal first, to get used to dealing with the prop & cowl. I'm still working to master that.

I am getting that your instructor doesn't know how or isn't comfortable teaching in the Mooney and he is creating fear where there need be none.

I bought my first Mooney, 1976 M20F as a very low time pilot, about 90 hrs total time. I had just enough time in an Arrow to assess that there was only a minimal difference, if you fly them by the numbers, both are very easy and enjoyable airplanes. The Mooney does go faster but there is no requirement that you fly it at maximum speed. And the only difference between an Archer and an Arrow is the landing gear. And there is only a minimal difference between an Archer and a Skyhawk. There is a reason none of these planes require a type rating.

Find another instructor and start flying that Mooney, no delay.

[IFLYIFR]

Google the article “Why We Can’t Land” by Wayne Fischer, Master CFI in the 2003 Mooney Pilot magazine. According to the article, he is a founding member of the Mooney Safety Foundation and was also a Mooney marketing rep in Arizona. He explains in detail what airspeed you should fly on the approach and also the airspeed to fly over the runway threshold. He shows actual numbers for his Mooney based on the charts in his POH based on landing weight and flap settings. If you stick to these airspeeds (in your POH for your weight and flap settings) you will find landing a Mooney is not difficult at all. This article for me is the single best explanation of how to land a M20J.


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[toto]

1 minute ago, IFLYIFR said:

Google the article “Why We Can’t Land” by Wayne Fischer, Master CFI in the 2003 Mooney Pilot magazine. According to the article, he is a founding member of the Mooney Safety Foundation and was also a Mooney marketing rep in Arizona. He explains in detail what airspeed you should fly on the approach and also the airspeed to fly over the runway threshold. He shows actual numbers for his Mooney based on the charts in his POH based on landing weight and flap settings. If you stick to these airspeeds (in your POH for your weight and flap settings) you will find landing a Mooney is not difficult at all. This article for me is the single best explanation of how to land a M20J.


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I tried to Google this, and found an article - but I assume this isn’t it?

https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/fd03665a-9127-4f79-a429-ee3607a81548/downloads/Wayne Fisher on Landing.pdf?ver=1619678278351

[IFLYIFR]

This isn’t the article but it looks like a good enough summary. I have a PDF copy but don’t know how to upload PDFs to this forum.


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[RoundTwo]

5 minutes ago, IFLYIFR said:

This isn’t the article but it looks like a good enough summary. I have a PDF copy but don’t know how to upload PDFs to this forum.


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Here it is…

[toto]

2 minutes ago, RoundTwo said:

Here it is…

That’s the same one I posted, isn’t it?

[RoundTwo]

3 minutes ago, toto said:

That’s the same one I posted, isn’t it?

No. Mine has a picture. Yours is just text. 

[donkaye]

52 minutes ago, RoundTwo said:

Here it is…

I think Wayne flew for Continental for most of his career and loved Mooneys.  I was fortunate enough to fly part way with him once going to a Mooney PPP in Missouri.  His landing in the Ovation I remember was smooth as silk.  Many of the old Masters including Wayne have flown West.  Wayne was certainly one of the best.  He and Jerry Johnson often would make the CFI assignments, and they just seemed to have a knack for putting the right personalities together.  I certainly miss Wayne, who answered so many of my early questions.  I thought that article was good enough to be included many years ago in the articles I've posted on my website.

[carusoam]

40yr dream…

Look left, look right….

You may be the youngest of the three….  

Many people have put flying on hold for a variety of reasons…

Mooneys make great retirement planes…

Congrats on executing the dream!

Best regards,

-a-

[elimansour]

On 10/27/2021 at 12:42 PM, donkaye said:

A good Mooney specific instructor will be able to provide this guidance to make for a fairly easy transition for most.  The attached document contains the secret to making good landings.

Precision Flying With Don Kaye 8-11 .pdf 103.85 kB · 42 downloads

Hi Don.  Fantastic tips!  Thank you.  I do have one question - can you explain the +5 in the idle power column?   

[donkaye]

28 minutes ago, elimansour said:

Hi Don.  Fantastic tips!  Thank you.  I do have one question - can you explain the +5 in the idle power column?   

Yes.  Less airflow over the wing with power at idle.

[elimansour]

15 minutes ago, donkaye said:

Yes.  Less airflow over the wing with power at idle.

Thank you - that makes sense.  

[Ethan]

I have been flying my M20K (231) for about 8 years and about 1100 hours. I'm still learning the airplane. It's not a great slow speed airplane. It has taken me several years and over 1000 hours to get confident flying the approach slowed down to a good respectable spped. If you fly an approach at 75 kts and chop the power when the runway's made, it lands really nicely and smoothly. The problem is, 68-75 kts is still really fast. That means to get it stopped eats up runway. You need to retract the flaps ASAP to kill some ground-effect and stand on the brakes. It lands so nicely with a 75 kt approach I got used to flying those lazy long landings and using up some tires and brakes. The airplane, will, however land a lot slower it just takes getting used to. The controls are heavier and it feels a little mushy. If I shoot final at 60-65 kts, and half to full flaps, it lands short and saves a lot of tires and brakes. That is the way to land the plane. Slow as possible and use as little runway as possible.

I never had formal "Mooney" training. I just jumped in and my partner gave me some tips. I think spending a lot of time on slow flight is really important and spending time learning to land it short is also really important. It has given me confidence to land my little Mooney that loves ground-effect, in short strips. I now feel like I know the plane much better. 

In cruise, the airplanes a dream.

[Hank]

Generally speaking, every knot above stall speed in the flare is 100 feet of runway that you will float past. If stall is 57 knots and you flare at 75 knots, you will float 1800 feet, or a third of a mile. Call it 20 seconds to maintain heading and attitude, and keeping the nose up to avoid porpoise.

The key is simple:  Learn to land at the right speed. Practice in whatever you are flying now to get ready.

[aviatoreb]

40 minutes ago, Ethan said:

I have been flying my M20K (231) for about 8 years and about 1100 hours. I'm still learning the airplane. It's not a great slow speed airplane. It has taken me several years and over 1000 hours to get confident flying the approach slowed down to a good respectable spped. If you fly an approach at 75 kts and chop the power when the runway's made, it lands really nicely and smoothly. The problem is, 68-75 kts is still really fast. That means to get it stopped eats up runway. You need to retract the flaps ASAP to kill some ground-effect and stand on the brakes. It lands so nicely with a 75 kt approach I got used to flying those lazy long landings and using up some tires and brakes. The airplane, will, however land a lot slower it just takes getting used to. The controls are heavier and it feels a little mushy. If I shoot final at 60-65 kts, and half to full flaps, it lands short and saves a lot of tires and brakes. That is the way to land the plane. Slow as possible and use as little runway as possible.

I never had formal "Mooney" training. I just jumped in and my partner gave me some tips. I think spending a lot of time on slow flight is really important and spending time learning to land it short is also really important. It has given me confidence to land my little Mooney that loves ground-effect, in short strips. I now feel like I know the plane much better. 

In cruise, the airplanes a dream.

My angle of attack/lift reserve indicator has really helped me on short final to come in properly at the right approach speed for my weight and since it’s on the glare shield my eyes are really not on the asi by that point so I loose track of the actual speed but I’m true to lift reserve snd eyes down the runway.

e