Anyone switch to electric mags?

[Ness]

Hello everyone. I am thinking of trying the electric magneto arena.  I keep reading of fuel savings in the area of 1 gph and a fairly decent performance increase. Has anyone switched to electric mags or give any advice on this? I fly a J model, 201.

[DXB]

start by Googling "Mooneyspace Surefly"   - a lot has been said here on this but the search function on this site is pretty weak.

BTW if you have an A3B6D with dual mags on your engine, you're out of luck unless you upgrade to the A3B6

Edited September 23, 2021 by DXB

[Danb]

2 hours ago, Ness said:

Hello everyone. I am thinking of trying the electric magneto arena.  I keep reading of fuel savings in the area of 1 gph and a fairly decent performance increase. Has anyone switched to electric mags or give any advice on this? I fly a J model, 201.

Ness, I have, not a J but a Bravo, going on two years no issues. Maybe a little smoother and a gallon less fuel, although that could be suspect. Surely better hot starts and smoother. If your due for the mag 500 hour servicing it may be beneficial to do it.

[Will.iam]

My plane is in annual getting the surefly installed. Will know the difference once i get it back from annual but i also replaced the wiring harness and overhauled the other mag so i will not know how much difference was just the surefly. 

[toto]

3 hours ago, DXB said:

start by Googling "Mooneyspace Surefly"   - a lot has been said here on this but the search function on this site is pretty weak.

BTW if you have an A3B6D with dual mags on your engine, you're out of luck unless you upgrade to the A3B6

Assuming Electroair starts shipping, they do have an approved dual mag replacement. 

Last I heard they were threatening to ship in July. 
 

http://www.electroair.net/4cylignitionKit.html

[philip_g]

54 minutes ago, toto said:

Assuming Electroair starts shipping, they do have an approved dual mag replacement. 

Last I heard they were threatening to ship in July. 
 

http://www.electroair.net/4cylignitionKit.html

I did not know. I need this.

[LANCECASPER]

3 hours ago, Danb said:

Ness, I have, not a J but a Bravo, going on two years no issues. Maybe a little smoother and a gallon less fuel, although that could be suspect. Surely better hot starts and smoother. If your due for the mag 500 hour servicing it may be beneficial to do it.

Is that the Electroair Dan?

[Ragsf15e]

7 hours ago, Ness said:

Hello everyone. I am thinking of trying the electric magneto arena.  I keep reading of fuel savings in the area of 1 gph and a fairly decent performance increase. Has anyone switched to electric mags or give any advice on this? I fly a J model, 201.

I have a Surefly for the last 2 years on a similar engine (m20F).  It’s good.  Starts easy, slightly better performance lean of peak at higher altitude (~8,500’+), no change ROP.  No 500hr maintenance.

 I did a longer writeup in a different thread showing slightly improved lean of peak speed at higher altitude (where the advance has kicked in).

Dont expect miracles.  I seriously doubt you’ll see 1gph difference at same speed.  I measured ~2-3kts better lop at similar ff.

[carusoam]

Ness,

Find the search window.…

Pop in the words SureFly…

If you fly your J LOP, cut back on your expectations about fuel savings…

If you fly your J at high altitudes, another reason your fuel savings won’t be so great…

If you are looking for variable timing to work out…  did I mention LOP at high altitudes yet? 

 

Find the 10s of threads and hundreds of posts on everything about electronic mags…

Then search Maggie… the known supplier for good mag wires to go with the sure fly…

Then read up on the fancy ignition switch that can go with that…

Then read up on the mag gear that sometimes causes timing challenges… during installation…

read about the gear that gets swapped out…

Then read about the best way to supply a power wire…

How about reading about the best place to put the fuse for that power wire…

 

Wait… you missed something… what about the ease of starting?   Depending on your skills… the Surefly can be helpful…

 

Some things are bleeding edge new….

This one is perfectly old… with plenty of good experience all around…

There is currently one person still having a challenge for his install around here.

 

PP thoughts only, not web search expert… 

Best regards,

-a-

[ArtVandelay]

The problem is some of threads may be dated, there definitely was some teething problems. If or when I want to switch, I’d be looking for current feedback, especially on the subject of dependability.

[carusoam]

All threads are dated form the second they get written… 
 

There has been a long lull in reported electronic mag activity…

One Ovation got one, had difficulty, finally swapped it back out…

The one recent install that hasn’t gone well, no further info of what the problem is yet…

The quirks regarding install are pretty well lined out…

The quirks regarding run-up misses are well known…

The quirks related to 24V systems are kind of fresh…

What’s consistent is how well they have been working in the field…

 

Nothing wrong with starting a new thread asking the same question that has been covered before…

When doing a search, both threads will appear…

 

The one thing we try to avoid… having two near identical threads running at the same time…. They will look alike, but the post you are trying to find will be in the other one…. 

 

Most people append the new question to the end of an older thread…

Hard to know how MS works when you are new….  
 

Getting improvements to the collection of data would be interesting… organized, summarized, checked for authenticity and accuracy… would be nice…

Putting a sticky on the good posts has been suggested a few times…

Best regards,

-a-

[Danb]

16 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

Is that the Electroair Dan?

No Lance Surefly 

[WaynePierce]

19 hours ago, philip_g said:

I did not know. I need this.

The Website says it is currently available for only Experimental aircraft. I would love to offer my Mooney as a test bed...

 

[toto]

2 hours ago, WaynePierce said:

The Website says it is currently available for only Experimental aircraft. I would love to offer my Mooney as a test bed...

 

It’s already certified. The website is out of date in some places. 

[toto]

4 minutes ago, toto said:

It’s already certified. The website is out of date in some places. 

From the Electroair site:

 

 

The EIS-42000DM Electronic Ignition Kit 
4cyl EIS; Bendix Single Drive, Dual Mag $4,995.00

 

The EIS-42000D Electronic Ignition Kit is a fully STC'd kit to replace the Bendix single drive, dual magneto with a complete, DUAL ELECTRONIC ignition. The two ignition systems are completely independent of each other and do not have any common failure modes. Replacing the dual magneto with the EIS-42000D will typically improve fuel economy on average by 10-15% (many operators have reported consistent fuel savings of 1gph or greater). Additionally, there will be an improvement in horsepower, smoother engine operation, and improved high altitude performance. The EIS-42000D adjusts spark timing automatically by way of our MAP Sensor - timing is adjusted with altitude. This kit can be used on either 12V or 24V systems. Supplemental back-up power is required.

 

Kit includes: all the required parts to replace one impulse coupled magneto in most 4cyl Lycoming, counter rotating engines installed on twin engine aircraft. (Please refer to the eligibility schedule to verify the system can be installed on your engine - Note: aircraft & engines are being added regularly). You will have to order two kits in order to completely convert a Twin Engine Aircraft – please verify whether or not your aircraft has counter rotating props to make sure you order the correct kit. Please call Electroair Tech Support if there are ANY questions.

 

This kit eliminates A.D. Notes. eliminates repetitive inspections, and improves performance.

 

Kit includes: all the required parts to replace the Bendix single drive, dual magneto used in some Lycoming engines. (Please refer to the eligibility schedule to verify the system can be installed on your engine - Note: engines are being added regularly).

 

CORE CHARGE: $1,000.00; refundable upon return of good core removed from aircraft. For Distributor Information click here.

[KSMooniac]

From their FB this week:
Dual Electroair electronic ignition update:

We have been working with the FAA to arrive at a final STC approval for using dual Electroair electronic ignition systems and replacing magnetos entirely. One of the main hurdles that have to be overcome in order to achieve final approval is defining clearly what backup power options can be used. Both Electroair and the FAA have recognized that many backup power options are already available in the marketplace. As a result, the FAA elected to consolidate backup power options for dual electronic ignition systems into an FAA Policy.

In summary, the FAA Policy requires the use of one of three options for backup power when operating dual electronic ignition systems:
Back-up battery dedicated to one EIS.
Back-up alternator.
Dual electrical buss systems (likely only found at the OEM level).
Electroair agrees with this approach. As the process moved forward, however, and we examined the requirements with the FAA Policy regarding the backup battery, it became clear that an off-the-shelf battery option did not quite exist. Back-up alternators and dual buss systems have been adequately addressed in the marketplace and, where applicable, readily exist.

As a result of this, Electroair has asked the FAA to move forward immediately with the approval of dual EIS using Options #2 & #3 since these options are available now. Electroair will also move forward on its own back-up battery STC that will satisfy all of the FAA Policy requirements and Option #1 listed above. Once that STC is complete, all of the back-up power options will be available for operating dual Electroair electronic ignition systems.

Most advances in technology never come smoothly or are without unanticipated hurdles that simply must be overcome. The use of dual Electroair ignition systems on our aircraft is no different. We have been working on this for a long time now. We have good partners within the FAA that are working hard as well to get this very overdue technological advance complete and available to the marketplace. In the end, we will have a system that is efficient, modern, and most of all safe for use in our aircraft. We will announce each step as they are completed. We ask you for your continued patience and support. In doing so, we will continue to be the leader in aircraft electronic ignition systems.

Thank you...
Michael Kobylik
President
Electroair

Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk

[toto]

6 hours ago, KSMooniac said:

From their FB this week:
Dual Electroair electronic ignition update:

We have been working with the FAA to arrive at a final STC approval for using dual Electroair electronic ignition systems and replacing magnetos entirely. One of the main hurdles that have to be overcome in order to achieve final approval is defining clearly what backup power options can be used. Both Electroair and the FAA have recognized that many backup power options are already available in the marketplace. As a result, the FAA elected to consolidate backup power options for dual electronic ignition systems into an FAA Policy.

In summary, the FAA Policy requires the use of one of three options for backup power when operating dual electronic ignition systems:
Back-up battery dedicated to one EIS.
Back-up alternator.
Dual electrical buss systems (likely only found at the OEM level).
Electroair agrees with this approach. As the process moved forward, however, and we examined the requirements with the FAA Policy regarding the backup battery, it became clear that an off-the-shelf battery option did not quite exist. Back-up alternators and dual buss systems have been adequately addressed in the marketplace and, where applicable, readily exist.

As a result of this, Electroair has asked the FAA to move forward immediately with the approval of dual EIS using Options #2 & #3 since these options are available now. Electroair will also move forward on its own back-up battery STC that will satisfy all of the FAA Policy requirements and Option #1 listed above. Once that STC is complete, all of the back-up power options will be available for operating dual Electroair electronic ignition systems.

Most advances in technology never come smoothly or are without unanticipated hurdles that simply must be overcome. The use of dual Electroair ignition systems on our aircraft is no different. We have been working on this for a long time now. We have good partners within the FAA that are working hard as well to get this very overdue technological advance complete and available to the marketplace. In the end, we will have a system that is efficient, modern, and most of all safe for use in our aircraft. We will announce each step as they are completed. We ask you for your continued patience and support. In doing so, we will continue to be the leader in aircraft electronic ignition systems.

Thank you...
Michael Kobylik
President
Electroair

Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk
 

Is this about replacing both magnetos in an aircraft with separate mags?

They announced the STC for Bendix dual mags some time ago, and it required a separate battery iirc. 

Their updates about the D3000 replacement have only been anticipated ship dates, with the STC already in hand. If they don’t actually have the STC yet, then :| 

[KSMooniac]

What I posted was for the D3000-equipped Lycoming models. Once they get it approved fully, then the conventional split mag approvals should follow, with similar requirements for backup power.

A newer Mooney with dual batteries and busses or alternators may be ok right now. If you're in that camp, call and ask. Most of us will likely have to wait for the supplemental battery approval.

Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk

[toto]

26 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

What I posted was for the D3000-equipped Lycoming models. Once they get it approved fully, then the conventional split mag approvals should follow, with similar requirements for backup power.

A newer Mooney with dual batteries and busses or alternators may be ok right now. If you're in that camp, call and ask. Most of us will likely have to wait for the supplemental battery approval.

Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk
 

Frown.  So this is just simply not true.

"The EIS-42000D Electronic Ignition Kit is a fully STC'd kit to replace the Bendix single drive, dual magneto with a complete, DUAL ELECTRONIC ignition."

[KSMooniac]

Well, it is true, but subject to some requirements or stipulations from the FAA to make it fully redundant regarding backup power. I don't think that is untruthful, or unnecessary.

I cannot right this moment install it on my J that has a single battery and alternator. Nor would I want to. At OSH they told me they expected a particular STC'd backup battery would be acceptable for my installation but apparently the FAA is still dragging their feet on that approval. That battery is small/light and would be plumbed only to the EIS as and emergency backup. The system otherwise is redundant with two separate trigger mechanisms, two ignition units, coils, plugs, etc.

Eventually I plan to remove the vacuum system and go for a PFD and that would enable me to install a backup alternator. I'm not ready to do that yet, and I want the ignition upgrade first so I'll continue to wait.

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[toto]

1 minute ago, KSMooniac said:

Well, it is true, but subject to some requirements or stipulations from the FAA to make it fully redundant regarding backup power. I don't think that is untruthful, or unnecessary.

I don't mean to disparage the company or any of their efforts - but "fully STC'd" is a clear statement.

[Rocket 305]

I just received my ElectroAir kit with switches replacing Bendix key switch (and accompanying recurring AD), it is going into the shop soon. I'll give a PIREP when able.

Edited September 26, 2021 by Rocket 305

[PT20J]

Any backup battery is going to have to have some installed means to capacity test it before flight to be certain that it is airworthy. That is likely the FAA hang up.

On a lighter note, I'm not sure I'd buy electronic gear from someone who doesn't know the difference between an electric conductor and a kiss.

From https://www.merriam-webster.com/

Definition of bus bar: a conductor or an assembly of conductors for collecting electric currents and distributing them to outgoing feeders

Definition of buss: KISS

[carusoam]

To add to the confusion….  Buss is a basic electrical equipment and parts supplier…

There aren’t that many ElectroAir systems in Mooneys yet…

I was interested to follow the story of an Acclaim getting one… 

Best regards,

-a-

 

Here’s the story… not very promising…  certainly wouldn’t want a pair of them in my plane…

 

[PT20J]

4 minutes ago, carusoam said:

To add to the confusion….  Buss is a basic electrical equipment and parts supplier.…

There aren’t that many ElectroAir systems in Mooneys yet…

Best regards,

-a-

Actually, Buss is a shortening of the name of the Bussmann Manufacturing Company founded by Lee and Harry Bussmann in 1914 to manufacture electrical components. It's now owned by Eaton.