PMA450B Flightmate Installation/8130-3 Question

[Chris B]

I have been looking at upgrading my PMA8000B to the new PMA450B.  I liked how the upgrade is plug and play and I am thinking about having my A&P do this while the plane is down for its engine overhaul.

One of the many features that I like was the flightmate and its ability to tell me that my gear is up in my headset.  In researching what the installation requires for this I found out that this can only be done by an authorized ps engineering installer.  Seeing how the entire world is backed up right now I was hoping to avoid trying to get into an avionics shop and just have my A&P do the work.  I asked ps engineering about this and they said:

Unless you’re A & P can perform an 8130-3 (he would have to go through a DMIR).  The flightmate was done under NORSEE.

Can anyone out there help me understand what that means...other than No, the A&P most likely can't do it?  

Thanks

[Aerodon]

I had a PS7000 with various recorded voice 'annunciations'.  I quite liked it took me forever to find the 'acknowledge' button on the RHS of the pilots control handle.

If I remember correctly, the annunciation occurs when the signal is pulled low to ground.  So if you connect to lights 'going on', you have to install relays to get it to work.  Or there is a cleverer way with diodes and resistors, but thats a little beyond my understanding.

So the PMA450B will work well with low fuel level, low oil pressure, and a few other 'cautions'.  

I had a floatplane gear warning system in an amphibian.  Once you slowed down to approach speed, it would call for 'select landing' (land or water), and after you pushed the button, it would say 'water landing OK' if in the correct configuration.

You are asking for a warning that your gear is up, I assume as a 'reminder' on final approach.  Your Mooney might have the airspeed pressure switch for the gear.  Once that triggers, you could get a recorded annunciation 'check gear', and get into the habit of pressing the 'acknowledge' button to confirm green light.  Maybe with a bit more thinking, you could take a combined input from airspeed and gear position to get a 'gear unsafe' annunciation only if the gear is up and you are slow?  

Nice feature, but I can see it will take a bit more thought than the average maintenance guy.  

 

Aerodon

 

 

[carusoam]

We have a PSEngineering guy around here who is pretty handy with tech details…

Lets see if @Mscheuer can help clear up the installation requirements… for the PMA450B… (see OP above…)

Best regards,

-a-

[PT20J]

The PMA450B has three active low inputs that can each trigger a prerecorded message while active. The standard messages are CHECK OIL PRESSURE, MASTER CAUTION, and CHECK FUEL, but you can record your own. These can be silenced with a button press. There is a fourth active high input that generates a chime sound when activated and this one cannot be silenced. None of these is really meant to be a gear warning.

[Chris B]

Thanks everyone.

It was Mark at PS Engineering that I was talking with that prompted this question.  My question was more what did Mark's response mean:  "Unless you’re A & P can perform an 8130-3 (he would have to go through a DMIR).  The flightmate was done under NORSEE."?

Since this is all new to me I can't understand why a 8130-3 would need to be created by the installing A&P if they configured flightmate to alert on gear up.  My assumption is the answer is buried in the "The flightmate was done under NORSEE" part of Mark's response but I am not familiar with that either.

[EricJ]

30 minutes ago, Chris B said:

Thanks everyone.

It was Mark at PS Engineering that I was talking with that prompted this question.  My question was more what did Mark's response mean:  "Unless you’re A & P can perform an 8130-3 (he would have to go through a DMIR).  The flightmate was done under NORSEE."?

Since this is all new to me I can't understand why a 8130-3 would need to be created by the installing A&P if they configured flightmate to alert on gear up.  My assumption is the answer is buried in the "The flightmate was done under NORSEE" part of Mark's response but I am not familiar with that either.

Something might've gotten lost in translation.    An ordinary A&P or IA can't issue 8130-3 forms, nor do they generally need to.   Unless you, the owner, intend to export the part, it isn't required.

My PMA450B Pilot's Guide and Operation Manual includes directions on how to record new alert warnings for the wired alerts.   The section in the manual is even called "flightmate".  There's no reason you can't do that.   Wire the alert to whatever you want.

 

[Chris B]

Thanks @EricJ, that makes sense to me.  Still waiting for my mechanics response but I would expect it to be similar to yours.

 

The installation manual I saw online mentions that the setup for the flightmate is on the "installers page"...pretty sure that was what it said.  Does your manually mention that and if it does, is that section of the 450B configuration open or does it require some top secret password or something like that?

Thanks

[EricJ]

22 minutes ago, Chris B said:

Thanks @EricJ, that makes sense to me.  Still waiting for my mechanics response but I would expect it to be similar to yours.

 

The installation manual I saw online mentions that the setup for the flightmate is on the "installers page"...pretty sure that was what it said.  Does your manually mention that and if it does, is that section of the 450B configuration open or does it require some top secret password or something like that?

Thanks

It's in the setup section of the Pilot's Guide, between setting up recall and volume adjustments and the BT audio streaming features.  There's nothing special about it.   There is a separate Installation Manual, and it states that the unit must be installed by a Repair Station.   If you're doing a plug-in replacement of a PMA8000, that kinda makes it a bit more difficult to answer if you care about any warranty pushback potential from PSE.   The FAA says panel replacement of plug-in avionics boxes can be done under Preventive Maintenance by an owner, and it doesn't say that they have to be like-for-like, just simple in-panel slide-out and slide-in.    Lots of people remove old navcoms and replace them with TKM boxes all the time under PM and similar swaps.

Normally an A&P can add the wire for the alert and then the instructions in the Pilot's Guide can be followed by the user to set it up (that's why it's in the Pilot's Guide, I'd argue).

I don't know what question you actually asked, but personally I think doing the box swap and adding the wire should be nbd for an A&P.   Swapping the box itself I think is PM and can be done by the owner, adding the wire would be a pretty straightfoward A&P task.    This might be one of those cases where it was better to not ask the question, but I think the only real complication is potential impact on the warranty.

[PT20J]

Curious how you are planning to use the flightmate feature in connection with the landing gear. What are you planning to connect it to?

Skip

[Chris B]

Lol..haven't actually got that far.  I would like to add some gear up warning into my headset.  I see a few options out there one of which I believe is the flightmate feature in the 450B.  If the 450B checks enough boxes on paper I will follow up with my mechanic and see what he thinks before I offically go down that road.

[PT20J]

Well what probably confused Mark (and I'll bet he meant a 337, not an 8130) is that you would need some way to generate the signal to activate the flightmate. You say that you want it to warn you that the gear is up, but I presume that you really want it to warn you when the gear is not down for landing. This requires some signal that the gear is not down (which is different than the gear being up) logically ANDed with some signal that indicates that you are landing. The most common way to generate the latter is with a switch on the throttle that senses that it is almost closed. Some airplanes also use flap position. If the airplane has a sonalert for a gear warning, you could tie that signal to the flightmate and get a redundant audio indication in the headset if that's all you want. You could likely talk your A&P into signing that off in the logbook as a minor alteration. It's only if you want to create something totally different or alter the current warning system that you should need engineering data and a 337.

Skip

[Yetti]

Most of the switching in the Mooney occur on the ground side.  So if you use the ground side switching of the sonalert for gear warning, to trigger one of the programed alerts in the 450b.   

[Yetti]

Ok I was wrong.  The Gear horn is switched on the positive side to the gear switch  (later F schmatics)   But the Stall warning horn is switched on Negative side.    The Dynon warning will take a positive input. 12v but not 24V.

 

Edited January 10, 2023 by Yetti

[Aerodon]

There is merit in having an alert 'in your headset' saying 'gear unsafe' rather than the sonalert.  The last 1/4" throttle movement and the gear up limit switch appear to trigger the sonalert.  (+28V in the 252).  My mechanical brain can see a way of using this to close a relay and providing a ground signal for the PMA450B.  

 

Aerodon

[Mscheuer]

Sorry, its been a busy week and just noticed this thread has some unanswered questions and an unforced "ERROR" on my part.

PS Engineering, Inc. provides 8130-3 for our new products when requested. DMIR, DAR, DER, and FAA are the only entities that can complete 8130-3 form. PS Engineering has several DMIR in house who sign 8130-3 on request for a charge of $35. 

I should have typed Form 337

Form 337

We require that a PS Engineering Authorized Dealer to perform installation of flightmate(R). All of our dealers are CRS (Certified Repair Stations with at least a Limited Radio Class Rating). If our dealer decides not to submit the Form 337, that is their judgement call, not ours.

NOTE: If the customer is removing a GMA340 or a PMA8000 series and replacing it with one of our newer models, a simple log book entry by a mechanic is all that is required, provided it does not include flightmate(R). And our full warranty is valid.

Because flightmate(R) might be connected to devices that may be primary systems we require flightmate(R) to be installed only by our Authorized Dealers (which is stated in our installation manuals.)

Finally, we only supply the required information to set up flightmate(R) to our Authorized Dealers in our attempt to make it clear the requirement of our Authorized Dealers to perform the connections to flightmate(R)

Hope this clears up the mess I made when I typed 8130-3 rather than Form 337. 

Mark Scheuer

PS Engineering, Inc.

[carusoam]

Great follow-up Mark!

Thanks for taking the time to supply all of the details…

Let’s see if @Chris B has seen the explanation…

Best regards,

-a-

[Chris B]

Thanks Mark for the clarification.  337 makes a lot more sense.