Pattern work when field is IMC

[ilovecornfields]

So I took a quick trip up to the CA Central Valley and both my departure and destination were IMC (departure due to marine layer and destination due to smoke and haze).

A couple of hours later I field IFR home but the oil temp was getting high (almost 100 F outside and it hadn’t cooled off from the last flight) so as I waiting for my IFR release and watching an RV in the pattern I told the tower we could depart VFR and pick up the clearance on the way.

He replied “No you can’t. The field is IFR.”

I got my release a few seconds later and took off but this makes no sense to me. If the field is IFR why is there an RV doing pattern work on the parallel runway? I guess you could ask for special VFR for pattern work but I was listening and never heard him ask or be cleared for this.

What am I missing?

Edited August 28, 2021 by ilovecornfields

[Shadrach]

Not missing anything other than perhaps his special VFR request which was likely made on ground freq prior to taxi. There is no other legal way he was operating VFR in the pattern in class delta.

[EricJ]

What airspace class is the field in?   Does it have visibility and ceiling monitoring equipment?   Towered?

I learned to fly in Germany and we routinely flew the pattern once the vis got to a mile, because otherwise we'd get about three weeks of flying a year (I'm exaggerating, but you get the idea).

 

[philip_g]

33 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Not missing anything other than perhaps his special VFR request which was likely made on ground freq prior to taxi. There is no other legal way he was operating VFR in the pattern in class delta.

If he was svfr in the d then no other ifr arrivals or departures would be allowed. He would effectively own that airspace 

Edited August 29, 2021 by philip_g

[Mooney Dog]

1 hour ago, ilovecornfields said:

If the field is IFR why is there an RV doing pattern work on the parallel runway?

I would guess that for the pattern, it might be okay, but for departing the area you probably wouldnt have been able to get far with the cloud base. Just a guess. 

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, philip_g said:

If he was svfr in the d then no other ifr arrivals or departures would be allowed. He would effectively own that airspace 

Section 5. Special VFR (SVFR)

1. PRIORITY

1. SVFR flights may be approved only if arriving and departing IFR aircraft are not delayed.

EXAMPLE-

1. A SVFR aircraft has been cleared to enter a Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E surface area and subsequently an IFR aircraft is ready to depart or is in position to begin an approach. Less overall delay might accrue to the IFR aircraft if the SVFR aircraft is allowed to proceed to the airport and land, rather than leave, a Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E surface area or be repositioned to provide IFR priority.
2. A SVFR aircraft is number one for takeoff and located in such a position that the number two aircraft, an IFR flight, cannot taxi past to gain access to the runway. Less overall delay might accrue to the IFR aircraft by releasing the SVFR departure rather than by having the aircraft taxi down the runway to a turnoff point so the IFR aircraft could be released first.

NOTE-

The priority afforded IFR aircraft over SVFR aircraft is not intended to be so rigidly applied that inefficient use of airspace results. The controller has the prerogative of permitting completion of a SVFR operation already in progress when an IFR aircraft becomes a factor if better overall efficiency will result.

[ilovecornfields]

Interesting. I wish I’d paid more attention. It was at a Class D airport with nothing else nearby. I actually have no idea why it has a tower since much busier airports around it don’t.

Is it common to request special VFR for pattern work? I don’t think I’ve ever seen it before.

[Shadrach]

23 minutes ago, philip_g said:

None of this has anything to do with anything in this conversation. 

He said he was waiting for his release and someone was in the pattern. Someone suggested the pattern aircraft could be svfr. He could not, because no separation exists between the svfr aircraft and the departing aircraft. Svfr is effectivy one in one out. You can quote the 7110 all you want. I've read it and applied it. 

You’re correct, I jumped the gun and did not read the post thoroughly.  I did some deeper diving. It would be legal for ATC to grant a deviation to the RV.

§ 91.129 Operations in Class D airspace.

(b) Deviations. An operator may deviate from any provision of this section under the provisions of an ATC authorization issued by the  ATCfacility having jurisdiction over the airspace concerned.  ATC may authorize a deviation on a continuing basis or for an individual flight, as appropriate.

Edited August 29, 2021 by Shadrach

[Mooney Dog]

4 hours ago, ilovecornfields said:

Is it common to request special VFR for pattern work?

I personally dont like it but i know a few CFIs in the area that have done it.

[midlifeflyer]

9 hours ago, ilovecornfields said:

Interesting. I wish I’d paid more attention. It was at a Class D airport with nothing else nearby. I actually have no idea why it has a tower since much busier airports around it don’t.

Is it common to request special VFR for pattern work? I don’t think I’ve ever seen it before.

Not common. 20 years at a Class D I saw it used once on an unusually quiet day.  
 

That's where I expect it mostly happens - a quiet Class D with a ceiling hovering near the 1000' mark. 

[GeeBee]

SVFR pattern work. Did it all the time when I was an instructor at RHV and SJC. In terms of priority SVFR departing flights should not delay a departing IFR flight but a departing IFR flight can be held for a SVFR arrival already cleared. So in the case of the pattern work, the tower would recover the inflight SVFR to a full stop, then clear out the IFR departure. When they had separation, clear the SVFR for take off.

 

 

[toto]

14 hours ago, ilovecornfields said:

What am I missing?

The big thing with SVFR is that the tower cannot and will not suggest it. They’ll give you a “field is IFR, say intentions,” but they won’t offer SVFR unless you explicitly request it.

[ilovecornfields]

Thanks for all the responses. Makes sense now. I didn’t even think about requesting a SVFR departure although I assume I wouldn’t have been legal outside the Class D so I guess my only choice was to wait and get my IFR departure. 

[Shadrach]

17 minutes ago, ilovecornfields said:

Thanks for all the responses. Makes sense now. I didn’t even think about requesting a SVFR departure although I assume I wouldn’t have been legal outside the Class D so I guess my only choice was to wait and get my IFR departure. 

Just for clarity’s sake, was the RV airborne when you were cleared for take off?

[GeeBee]

21 minutes ago, ilovecornfields said:

Thanks for all the responses. Makes sense now. I didn’t even think about requesting a SVFR departure although I assume I wouldn’t have been legal outside the Class D so I guess my only choice was to wait and get my IFR departure. 

It would not have changed anything. With special VFR one aircraft at a time. They would have to recover the RV before they could clear you out, IFR or SVFR. As to your legality outside Class D, once airborne, inflight visibility is the pilots call. If you had, for instance, requested a SVFR clearance, you could call the tower report "VFR conditions" the moment the wheels break ground and the tower could clear the next aircraft. Visibility restrictions airborne are the pilots call. Equally so, you can take off from an uncontrolled field, right next door to a controlled field all in Class D if you determine the visibility is 3 miles or greater, even thought the tower is reporting less than 3 miles because the visibility report only counts for that airfield and on the ground. There used to be a little airport right next to SAC and everybody would say, "Yep, got 3 miles!" and roll, not a thing SAC tower could do.

[ilovecornfields]

34 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Just for clarity’s sake, was the RV airborne when you were cleared for take off?

I wish I’d paid more attention. I just wanted to get off the ground and keep the temps down so I wasn’t really focused on him. I wanted to say he was on downwind but it doesn’t sound like that would have been legal. This airport doesn’t have a LiveATC feed so I can’t go back and listen to the recording.

[ilovecornfields]

2 minutes ago, ilovecornfields said:

I wish I’d paid more attention. I just wanted to get off the ground and keep the temps down so I wasn’t really focused on him. I wanted to say he was on downwind but it doesn’t sound like that would have been legal. This airport doesn’t have a LiveATC feed so I can’t go back and listen to the recording.

Edit: My wife said the RV landed before we took off and when we disagree she’s right 99.9% of the time so I will change my answer to that.

[Shadrach]

1 minute ago, ilovecornfields said:

Edit: My wife said the RV landed before we took off and when we disagree she’s right 99.9% of the time so I will change my answer to that.

OK that makes sense. So more than likely he was operating under SVFR and not an ATC authorized deviation.

[philip_g]

8 hours ago, GeeBee said:

It would not have changed anything. With special VFR one aircraft at a time. They would have to recover the RV before they could clear you out, IFR or SVFR. As to your legality outside Class D, once airborne, inflight visibility is the pilots call. If you had, for instance, requested a SVFR clearance, you could call the tower report "VFR conditions" the moment the wheels break ground and the tower could clear the next aircraft. Visibility restrictions airborne are the pilots call. Equally so, you can take off from an uncontrolled field, right next door to a controlled field all in Class D if you determine the visibility is 3 miles or greater, even thought the tower is reporting less than 3 miles because the visibility report only counts for that airfield and on the ground. There used to be a little airport right next to SAC and everybody would say, "Yep, got 3 miles!" and roll, not a thing SAC tower could do.

The only other form of legal separation between a svfr and ifr  is visual. You can't use radar. You can't use altitude. 

Edited August 29, 2021 by philip_g

[carusoam]

Use lots of caution when the clouds are at 1k’ agl…

Extra important at non-towered fields…

The legal VFR participants may not know anything about the whereabouts of IFR traffic in IMC… headed to the same spot on the ground…

Many VFR pilots don’t know anything about IFR flights…

 

You would think somebody would take interest in marketing the IR to VFR pilots…. 

PP thoughts only, not a CFII…

Best regards,

-a-

[ilovecornfields]

5 hours ago, philip_g said:

The only other form of legal separation between a svfr and ifr  is visual. You can't use radar. You can't use altitude. 

Would this work if you would expect to lose visual contact? For example, if the guy was on downwind and I said  I had him in sight could they clear me to take off IFR knowing at at some point I would lose him, perhaps before he landed?

Edited August 30, 2021 by ilovecornfields

[GeeBee]

I've used visual separation but the pilot has to initiate it and cannot occur in the enroute environment. I've used to use visual separation at SCK back when it was non-radar approach control to allow another IFR to depart while inbound.

 

[Mcstealth]

10 hours ago, carusoam said:

Use lots of caution when the clouds are at 1k’ agl…

Extra important at non-towered fields…

The legal VFR participants may not know anything about the whereabouts of IFR traffic in IMC… headed to the same spot on the ground…

Many VFR pilots don’t know anything about IFR flights…

 

You would think somebody would take interest in marketing the IR to VFR pilots…. 

PP thoughts only, not a CFII…

Best regards,

-a-

My CFII did train me to monitor IFR traffic/radio when he and I were training with low visibility. I don't remember the FARs he said were applicable while training at KERV in low visibility, but I certainly did train in the pattern just below the clouds on several occasions. 

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, Mcstealth said:

My CFII did train me to monitor IFR traffic/radio when he and I were training with low visibility. I don't remember the FARs he said were applicable while training at KERV in low visibility, but I certainly did train in the pattern just below the clouds on several occasions. 

Class G VFR minimums are 1sm and clear of clouds. I don't know what the airspace was like when you learned to fly but the magenta ring around KERV on the current sectional means the floor of the Class E starts at 700AGL and transitions to 1200AGL at the ring.  My understanding is that SVFR pattern operations would require a clearance from ATC.  Do you recall your instructor calling FSS or a ATC prior to takeoff?  If you were flying at or from one to another of the private strips nearby (outside the boundary of the magenta ring) it would legal to operate VFR clear of clouds with 1sm of vis within 1200AGL though likely not a good idea.

Edited August 30, 2021 by Shadrach

[GeeBee]

I will give you the most perverse example of pilot vs official observation. I had to do a Part 141 Chief Instructor check ride with the SJC FSDO. The inspector asked me to prepare a lesson plan and teach him about VFR minimums in airspace etc. So I did. We talked about pilot airborne observations and the perversity of it all.  We went flying and I verified I was the PIC. We were doing multi engine work and near SCK I saw a cloud at about 3000'. It was a lone cumulus cloud, small and isolated. I went right through it. As the windshield was gray, I said to the inspector, "I say we got three miles". The inspector said, "I don't think so, but you're the PIC". We landed and he told me I taught a great and well organized lesson.......and don't teach "those secrets" again. I passed.