Anzaldi01 Posted August 11, 2021 Report Share Posted August 11, 2021 After reviewing information provided on my earlier post about adding an Auto Pilot to my M20A with M20E Wing and M20J Tail along with information provided by a FAA Engineer it might be fairly easy to add an auto pilot out of a similar model Mooney utilizing excerpts from a STC along with my own documentation for a Field Approval. S-Tec will not provide any information since they do not have a STC for a M20A. If anyone has any photos of a S-Tec System 30 or 50 installed in a M20B, C, D, or E it would be helpful. I have found a system out of an early M20E but there is no documentation. The brackets, servos and harnesses are included but I would like to see where and how the system is installed if possible. Specifically the Roll Servo mounting and connections and the Pitch Servo Mounting and connections and location. If any one can help it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance! Carl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted August 12, 2021 Report Share Posted August 12, 2021 Hmmmmm…. Can you get the documentation based on the S/N of the M20E that donated the AP? Stec is kind of fuzzy about re-use of their hardware… they often just want a payment for the STC… If the STC already exists from the original plane… it may be a way to get that document… Or call and ask how much it will cost for an STC for an A or an E, or if it even matters… PP thoughts only, not a mechanic… Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anzaldi01 Posted August 12, 2021 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2021 Thank you for the reply. Unfortunately Stec doesn't offer an STC for an A model. Not that it would do any good if they did because the only remaining A model components of my aircraft is the Fuselage. You are absolutely correct that Stec doesn't what their units recycled across other aircraft and I can understand that they are in the business of selling product directly however I also feel they should support after sale products as well. In my case they don't offer a solution. I've talked with Mooney and aligned them with Stec for my particular case but haven't heard back. If I can purchase a complete unit from an aircraft being parted out and work on getting a field approval that really is my only option. The DER at the FAA gave me some encouraging advise based on my particular case but it will involve utilizing excerpts from an existing STC for the S-Tec documentation along with my own documentation showing the application utilizing PMA'd components and like model installation techniques. I proposed this the S-Tec and they had no interest in helping me. In fact in an effort to basically get me to go away they offered to let me pay for the creation of a new STC for my model at the cost of $75K + as well as the cost of the Autopilot. Not exactly customer centric if you ask me. If I had the opportunity to purchase an approved Autopilot I would more than likely NOT use S-Tec based on their service after the sale or flexibility to assist with a realistic solution. At this point my only hope is to try for a field approval but it's going to take a lot of documentation to back it up. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N231BN Posted August 12, 2021 Report Share Posted August 12, 2021 If you are going to use data from a STC as part of a field approval you will need a permission letter from the STC holder.Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anzaldi01 Posted August 12, 2021 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2021 36 minutes ago, N231BN said: If you are going to use data from a STC as part of a field approval you will need a permission letter from the STC holder. Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk You can't use / copy an existing STC verbatim for a field approval however you can take portions of an STC or multiple STCs and use them in creating your documentation for a field approval per my conversation with the DER at the FAA. The FAA used to publish the STCs where anyone could access them but the manufacturers complained and forced them to stop the practice because the information was being used by competitors and infringed on their protection of intellectual properties. I did try to get a letter of permission from S-Tec to go for a field approval using a unit purchased from them directly for a B, C or E model but they said they would not. As mentioned earlier they aren't real interested in helping customers who would like to use their products beyond their current portfolio. Understandably I'm just one customer with an old Mooney. How much time and trouble am I worth? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted August 12, 2021 Report Share Posted August 12, 2021 1 hour ago, Anzaldi01 said: Thank you for the reply. Unfortunately Stec doesn't offer an STC for an A model. Not that it would do any good if they did because the only remaining A model components of my aircraft is the Fuselage. You are absolutely correct that Stec doesn't what their units recycled across other aircraft and I can understand that they are in the business of selling product directly however I also feel they should support after sale products as well. In my case they don't offer a solution. I've talked with Mooney and aligned them with Stec for my particular case but haven't heard back. If I can purchase a complete unit from an aircraft being parted out and work on getting a field approval that really is my only option. The DER at the FAA gave me some encouraging advise based on my particular case but it will involve utilizing excerpts from an existing STC for the S-Tec documentation along with my own documentation showing the application utilizing PMA'd components and like model installation techniques. I proposed this the S-Tec and they had no interest in helping me. In fact in an effort to basically get me to go away they offered to let me pay for the creation of a new STC for my model at the cost of $75K + as well as the cost of the Autopilot. Not exactly customer centric if you ask me. If I had the opportunity to purchase an approved Autopilot I would more than likely NOT use S-Tec based on their service after the sale or flexibility to assist with a realistic solution. At this point my only hope is to try for a field approval but it's going to take a lot of documentation to back it up. Can you convert your A model to the experimental class? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anzaldi01 Posted August 12, 2021 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2021 I did discuss that with the DER as well. It is possible to take the aircraft into the Experimental Category for market research and later bring it back into the Normal category but I will have the same issue with the AP Manufacturers. If I want access to Approved parts I have to fit their STC criteria. If I want to leave it in the Experimental category I can make make use of any hardware I can find but it would not be able to be brought back into the Normal category without approved parts. I'm not sure what my insurance would do if I brought it into the Experimental Category. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vance Harral Posted August 12, 2021 Report Share Posted August 12, 2021 This idea of "taking your aircraft into the Experimental category" comes up from time to time. It sounds like Anzaldi01 understands the implications, but for others who may be thinking about this, understand that there are multiple sub-categories of Experimental, most of which don't enjoy the broad freedoms afforded the Experimental Amateur Built category most pilots associate with the word "Experimental". If you're really serious, you can surrender the Normal category airworthiness certificate for your Mooney in exchange for, say, Experimental Research and Development or Experimental Showing Compliance with Regulations. However, once you do that, you may only operate the aircraft for those purposes. i.e. you can conduct test flights in a limited, local area; but you can't go for a $100 hamburger or take the family to visit Grandma. To use the airplane for recreational/business purposes, you have to put it back in the Normal category, which will require removing whatever gizmos caused you to go Experimental in the first place. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted August 13, 2021 Report Share Posted August 13, 2021 Note about STec… They visited here once… discussing their new AP. There were plenty of interested parties… with the need, the desire, and the cash… But Stec pretty much made it impossible to buy from them… The follow-up was Big G writing STC after STC for different models of Mooney…. With Mooneys borrowed from from various MSers… Progressing from the Long Bodies, down through the mid bodies, on to the short bodies newer than 1964…. Step by step they were headed for M20A… If interested… find the guy at Big G that sees your plane as the right model Mooney for the system they have… Stec just seems too clueless to be able to help…. They know they are clueless. Instead of saying so… they offer you a deal for 75AMU… It’s their go away kid you bother me routine…. Tell them you like their idea, 75amu is perfect… I love my M20A, it’s worth it….when can we start? Expect to see a really interesting response… A cartoon like back pedaling…. Replete with smoking feet… I don’t know about the quality of their equipment… but their sales approach is on the lazy side… Big G has eaten their lunch because of it… Dynon will probably add the finishing touches… sort of a last nail for Stecs in the near future of the Mooney world… Imagine being the sales guy with a great new digital AP for all Mooneys… all you need to do to sell it is have somebody write the STC for it… How hard can it be? This is a requirement for all APs… Good sales guys get this done… or blame someone else for them not selling anything… STC writing takes some effort… and some test flights… normal stuff for an AP manufacturer to go through… When you talk to the Big G guy… discuss where they mount the servos, and why your plane is like one of the other Mooneys on their list… Bracket building and installing is a good part of the mechanical work… PP thoughts only, not an AP sales guy… Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Lloyd Posted August 14, 2021 Report Share Posted August 14, 2021 Come on guys, Carl asked for a little help. This is a guy that put E wings and a K tail on an A model. He understands the what the FAA is looking for and has hired a DER to assist. All he asked of us is a few pictures of how the servos are mounted in short body Mooney and just wants to look at the STC wording. He knows and says here he knows he can not use the STC itself. Stec will not help as they do not have an STC for an A, much less an A with an E wing. Surely there is someone that has a Stec 30 or 50 that can help. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Chub Posted August 14, 2021 Report Share Posted August 14, 2021 Working with OP to provide drawings and photos via PM. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anzaldi01 Posted September 3, 2021 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2021 Old Chub Really went above and beyond on this one. I Received a full set of prints and schematics today and he has provided a lot of feedback to assist me with this project. Thank you everyone for the assistance! I'm looking forward to paying it forward in the future. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M20F-1968 Posted September 5, 2021 Report Share Posted September 5, 2021 Work with a DER who will write up an approval on a Form 337. The DER will need to research like components. The only part of your plane that is metal and original appears to be the fuselage. He will need to show that the E wing and K tail are appropriately mated to your fuselage and structurally equal or superior to your original wooden wing. Likewise he will need to do the same analysis with the tail. After that he will need to show show that the aircraft is structurally like a single model, such as an E, and will need to show that the K tail is the same as an E tail. Once you have confirmed that your plane is essentially a single model you can use the STC for that model for the basis of the 337 approval. If the E and K tails are not similar, then you need to show that the differences are trivial and likely use two STC's, one for the E and one for the K. I think you get the picture. Once you have the modification written up on a 337, you are good to do the modification. Once completed, have an IA inspect that the mod conforms to what the DER approved, write that up and file it with OK City. This process is the way I got through my rebuild. Without a willing DER, I may have never completed my airplane, or would have been frustrated as hell and alot poorer. John Breda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anzaldi01 Posted September 10, 2021 Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2021 John: Thank you for the suggestions and this is pretty much the direction I'm going based on my conversation with the DER I have been communicating with. I worked with LASAR and Mooney and identified the exact serial number aircraft my wing originated and it is an early model E and is the same structure used through later models as well. so that pretty much covers the Roll Servo requirements under the STC for the original installation of the system I purchased. The Pitch Servo configuration is also identical with the Short Body E models so it really is a "Like Installation" Since all the documentation is current for the rest of the mods I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the DER agrees that the application is consistent since there are no modifications to the STCd model installation required. With the help of others on the site here, I was able to obtain the S-Tec original prints for installation and the Autopilot I purchased from an early model E has complete paperwork including the installation, STC and Prints so writing up the 337 should be pretty straight forward since I can produce prints for the intended application along with some photos from approved installations to support my claims. I've invested enough now to be committed so we will see how the process pans out. Keeping my fingers crossed. Sincerely, Carl 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted September 10, 2021 Report Share Posted September 10, 2021 Great update Carl! The power of MS is incredible… Go MS! Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anzaldi01 Posted September 10, 2021 Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2021 Mooney Space is awesome!! great network of like minded Mooney lovers and a huge help with Franken Mooney's like mine. Obviously come of us are in it for the long haul. Once I finish the Auto Pilot I will have my perfect airplane. Thank you for the kudos! I am planning on documenting my project to share with others should they take on such a task with similar obstacles. One way to give back! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YuriE Posted October 30, 2023 Report Share Posted October 30, 2023 (edited) On 9/10/2021 at 3:23 PM, Anzaldi01 said: ................................. With the help of others on the site here, I was able to obtain the S-Tec original prints for installation and the Autopilot I purchased from an early model E has complete paperwork including the installation, STC and Prints so writing up the 337 should be pretty straight forward since I can produce prints for the intended application along with some photos from approved installations to support my claims. Would you share the STC and 337 you wrote? yelson@yahoo.com Edited November 25, 2023 by YuriE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bixmooney Posted November 2, 2023 Report Share Posted November 2, 2023 Hi, I have a C model without an autopilot and would like to add one without the expense of new. Is it straightforward to use another removed Stec autopilot from an E or F model ? Are the brackets the same and the STC is for the C model ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragsf15e Posted November 2, 2023 Report Share Posted November 2, 2023 22 minutes ago, bixmooney said: Hi, I have a C model without an autopilot and would like to add one without the expense of new. Is it straightforward to use another removed Stec autopilot from an E or F model ? Are the brackets the same and the STC is for the C model ? To do it legally, you need to transfer the stc to the new aircraft via the manufacturer/stc holder. For stec autopilots it’s not really done. You don’t want old/outdated/unsupported systems anyway. Save up and put in a truetrac (aerocruz 100) or garmin ap. Truetrac is probably cheapest solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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