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I have a few questions for people with more experience than me. 


Daniel.Arbre

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15 hours ago, Hank said:

The E is the mpg king, and some have been updated nicely over the years. Some have hydraulic flaps and / or manual gear. Js are larger and more modern and carry a higher price. Either will do nicely for you.

Sure, a 152 will cost less to buy, but you can always reduce the throttle and fly a Mooney at 152 speed. Then again, you can push the throttle in and use a Mooney to travel, and gain valuable experience that will be applicable to your professional flying ambitions.

Most E models will top out at about half of your budget, but don't buy a J at that price level, it will need too much repair / modernization. 

Hey Hank! Thanks for your reply. This may be a sensitive question but what price range should I think of for J?

Because I’m thinking the earliest year I would buy is a 1980.

I bought I used 26 foot boat before but the problems with that boat was frustrating because of the repair costs. And I really don’t want to buy a 1980 model but my budget is limited.

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2 minutes ago, Daniel.Arbre said:

Hey Hank! Thanks for your reply. This may be a sensitive question but what price range should I think of for J?

Because I’m thinking the earliest year I would buy is a 1980.

I bought I used 26 foot boat before but the problems with that boat was frustrating because of the repair costs. And I really don’t want to buy a 1980 model but my budget is limited.

I wouldn't get any J priced in 5 digits. But all prices are up right now, so who knows? When it comes to buying and selling Mooneys, Jimmy Garrison is the man. He's somewhere in Texas, I think Anthony ( @carusoam) posted a link to him somewhere above. 

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15 hours ago, M20Doc said:

A Mooney C model makes the most sense, lower price for almost everything involved.  Cheaper to buy, lower fuel burn, most reliable simple carbureted engine, because it’s a clean airframe, throttled back it will burn the same fuel as a 152 at the same speed, with the option of going way faster if you’re in a hurry.

Clarence

Hey Clarence.  Thanks for your reply. This is what I really wanted to know. 

I bought I used 26 foot boat before but the problems with that boat was frustrating because of the repair costs. The money I spent on repairs was as much as the cost of the boat.  I am worried about the cost of the repairs and waste both time and money. 

Do you think it’ll be ok even with an older model?

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15 hours ago, Danb said:

Like Doc mentioned a C makes the most sense, all frames a similar except the length, a C will get you 140+ knots on less than 10 GPH, manual gear which is the best especially regarding maintenance as is the lycoming 4 banger.with the money saved upgrade the panel to your needs

What do you think about older models?

I’m worried about repair costs with older models. They are about 40-50 years old and technology likely changed a lot. 

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Find Jimmy here….  https://www.gmaxamericanaircraft.com
 

I spoke with Jimmie’s partner (David) around y2k… learned all about the M20C…

David didn’t mind discussing Mooney details with people that may or may not buy one from him…

He told me…. maybe not this time… but I would probably be back the next time…

A decade later… I returned to buy the M20R…

David had an awesome history of Mooney flying…

 

Repair costs of old planes rival repair costs of new planes…. Either way, you don’t want to bend one…

For annual maintenance costs… read up on what the annual inspection is…. Really worn out planes will cost more to replace many wear items…

This is true of all machines, not just Mooneys…

So much of the plane doesn’t wear at all…

Boats don’t make much of a comparison… no FAA oversight… different environment… no required maintenance… no seat belts… no travel at 100+mph crossing the country…

If your boat was like that… you would have to describe it… because I have no idea what you are comparing to… in my area the environment is salt water… waves are three feet tall… going 100+ can be really dangerous…

Kids that want to spend their life working on the sea… go to colleges that cater to that as well… 

Best regards,

-a-

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15 hours ago, carusoam said:

Welcome aboard Daniel!

I like your style.

Most people look at 200AMU and think what four year degree can I get with that dough..?

There are aviation colleges that do this kind of thing… but…

Damn the financial torpedos, full speed ahead!   (Full speed and Mooneys…. They go together…)

Why get bogged down in conversations of LOP vs. ROP… where at best, I’m only going to save a gallon or two in ops costs each hour…

For a great lesson on getting fitted with a perfect Mooney for your needs…

Find the G in GMax…. Jimmy Garrison is the king of Mooney airplane sales…

You can sit in various models of Mooney at GMax in TX… and possibly test fly each one that makes sense for your mission…

 

If by some chance, this isn’t what you meant….

Find Alex @Raptor05121who is steadily working up the ladder of being a pro pilot using his M20C to control costs, while building experience…   Now getting paid to fly somebody else’s turbine powered ship.

Pay extra attention to @M20Doc he knows the economics of all the various Mooney models down to their rivets… over time.

Pay super attention to @Danb because when it comes to money spent on Mooneys… Dan is the accountant that can track it all…

If having to pay your own way causes you to eat ramen noodles often…   Go M20C!

If you aren’t sure how the ramen noodles get re-stocked in the cabinet every week…   Go Acclaim!

I’m just a PP that started humbly with an M20C and upgraded after a decade….

:)

Go Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-

Wow thanks for all that great info! I graduated college over 20 years ago and I agree with you. 

I’ve been looking on gmax all this time lol. 

Thanks again!

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15 hours ago, GeeBee said:

More important reason to go the CFI route.

You never really understand something until you have to explain it and teach it. (Try and explain holding patterns and entries for instance)

You don't know how many ways to do something wrong, until you teach it.

You don't know why we do the things the way we do, until you see it done wrong.

Thanks! I know this is best and I want to go this route but I have my personal reasons unfortunately

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14 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

The more different aircraft you fly the more experience you will gain as they are all a little bit different.

Getting that CFI, or actually a CFII will get you into many different aircraft.

I didn’t go the CFI route myself, I had a rich Uncle pay for most of my way, paid for my A&P and my Commercial / Instrument.

But to do it on your own, somebody’s got to be rich, of course you may be.

180 HP Mooney’s are fine, and in my opinion a low HP airplane is better to train in as excessive HP can be a crutch, low HP teaches you to finesse things.

A fellow Army pilot friend bought a Piper Apache to build multi time when I was in the Army so he could seek a civilian job when his Army time was up, everything was fine until the first Annual and it was discovered that the engine cases had been incorrectly welded in the past and suddenly he need to buy two motors, and he didn’t have the money to do so. I’m not sure how that worked out, but an old Apache without motors is pretty much worthless.

If he had gone the CFiI route, even if he did it for free, he would have not had to face that financial crisis.

Thanks! I really want to go the CFI route too but unfortunately there are personal circumstances that I can’t go/may not be able to go. 

Even though it costs a lot, I’ll problably go slowly

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13 hours ago, Raptor05121 said:

My background: I bought my 1963 180hp Mooney M20D approximately 5 years ago with 80 hours total time. I'm now a 1,500 hour Captain flying Part 135 Cessna 208 Caravans for cargo, and as of today, just received a CJO for PSA Airlines as a FO on the CRJ series.

Owning a plane is such an invaluable experience to have. The costs will be higher, but the memories I have the last 6 years of traveling all over the country, meeting many new friends (some from here!) and just overall experience-building is going to only help you in the long-run. I did NOT go the CFI route, primarily because I was hired into survey as soon as I completed my commercial, but I still want my CFI so I can become a "Mooney CFI". The CFI ticket will help you in the long run with stuff like book knowledge that is needed when you make it to the commercial world. There are some things I consider myself deficient in while my peers excel at because they have years of FAR/AIM items memorized. But at the same time, us (owners) have the added benefit of more frequent experience, as well as more quality experience. For example, during my 135 Captain check ride, we were shooting approaches. ILS and GPS, autopilot and no autopilot. During the last part, my examiner said to me: "okay, lastly, I want to see what everyone has the most trouble with- the hand flown VOR-A approach". You should have seen the shit-eating grin I had on my face. He quickly realized it and asked: "why are you smiling like that?". My only reply: "hand-flown VORs are the only approaches I've been flying in my 1960s Mooney for the past 6 years". I'm trying to stay humble, but at the end of the ride he commented that "owning your plane has a definite advantage- your hand flying coordination is impeccable"

If you are trying to time-build, nothing is faster than doing aerial survey. I logged about ~140hrs/month in a 172. Pay sucks, but you're actually flying the airplane, to within tenths of a degree of heading, +/- tens of feet, and +/-10 kts for 5-8 hours a day. Rather than letting some primary student get to fly the whole time while he sits back and tries to kill you. But again, the book knowledge and ability to put "CFI" on your resume will only help.

Re: your Mooney questions, if you dont need the backseaters, just opt for a 180-200hp short body like the C or E. No need to go fast, you're talking 10-15 minutes over the course of hundreds of miles for a plane thats $50,000 more. Just get something turn-key, nicely-equipped and was meticulously maintained. For an O-360, you can expect between $25,000-$30,000 for a proper overhaul with 3-6 months downtime. But the majority of Cs and Es were made in the 60s and 70s. If you are looking at a 1980s timeline, you're looking at a J, which will consume most of your budget just in initial acquisition costs. Paint can be between $10k-$20k and about 2 months downtime. Avionics can go from $5k-100k depending on what you want, with timeline anywhere in the middle.

It seems youre trying to buy a forever plane and use it to time build. Nothing wrong with that, but understand having a AOG (aircraft on ground) for mx, upgrades, paint, isnt going to help you build time.

My $0.02- get a solid, older 1960s or 1970s C or E model with GPS and maybe an autopilot for $80k, and use the rest for unplanned MX and go buy a shit ton of fuel and fly all over the country.

Feel free to PM if you want to chat further.

You are awesome! Really appreciate your feedback. I’ve wrote to other people many times but I’ve wasted so much time and money after buying a used boat. Thats why I was aiming for a model newer than 1980. Do you think it’ll be ok to buy an older 1960 or 1970?

Does an overhaul really have 3-6 month downtime? I was going to go the CFI route and I’m in my mid 40s and because this is my second language. I’m pretty burdened and stressed about teach other people in English. 

appreciate your feedback once again. Very useful!

I will certainly send you a PM if I have any other questions. 

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11 hours ago, Andy95W said:

Alex- @Raptor05121- Congratulations!  Sorry it took a little longer than you expected (or wanted), but good job sticking with it, staying positive, and getting some great experiences along the way.

It doesn’t seem that long ago you were working nightshift while trying to get your Mooney in the air.  And honestly, it probably happened faster than you thought.  Well done!

And for @Daniel.Arbre- Alex was in exactly your place just a few short years ago, except that he didn’t have your cash resources.  The advice he gave is the best here because he’s lived it.

Thanks Andy! I found a good forum here and I feel like I came to the right place for advice. 

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9 hours ago, V1VRV2 said:

The quality of time you build is just as important as the quantity. Building time in a primary trainer with someone else flying allows you to learn from someone else’s mistakes. But it doesn’t build real world experience operating in the IFR system. Flight planning for IFR trips all of a sudden has real world consequences. Fuel planning, VNAV/LNAV planning, weather, alternates, terrain.. all factors that’s will take on a new perspective when you actually have to meet those goals. Single pilot IFR.. you will build skill sets quickly! CFI/II/MEI are assets to have. Getting those doesn’t mean you can’t get those licenses and still build time in your own plane. I couldn’t work for $18 an hour being a CFI. 

There are ways to offset some costs associated with building time in your own plane.

1. Fly rescue animals around in the Pilots N Paws system or medical patients doing Angel flights. Expenses for those legs will be tax deductible if you need a tax deduction.

2. Find another person building time and split cots with them. Both pilots can log PIC in VFR conditions with one flying as safety pilot and one under the hood. Cuts expenses in 1/2.

Consider 1200 hrs in your own plane and the depreciation it will bring.

You likely won’t have to build 1200hrs before getting a job other than flight instructing. Business jet obs are available in the 91 market. A friend with 800TT just got a job flying a Citation XLS. He goes for his PIC type rating the end of the month. The airlines have started their post covid hiring binges and they will take a lot of pilots from 135 and 91 jobs. Personally I would rather be flying around a business jet with crews being home based than flying a CRJ for $40 and hour, commuting to my domicile and flying a reserve line. NO THANK YOU!

Pro’s and con’s to both approaches. If you have the financial means then getting your own plane has benefits. If you really want the best of everything then do both. CFI/II/MEI and own your on plane. WIN/WIN.

 

Thanks for your reply.

Yes! I’ve considered option #2.I was going to go for CFI but due to personal situation, not really an option. 

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Daniel,

Your written English is as good as mine!

I don’t have another language to fall back on…. :)

Practice reading and writing a lot… you can get really good at it as time goes on…

Don’t tell anyone… I had to learn to read and write again… I did at MooneySpace… :)

Pick a subject, read about it, write about it….  Repeat…

For fun, when Covid clears more… go to a Mooney fly in… talk about Mooney flying, maintenance, and traveling….

What is your primary language?  We probably have a few MSers that share your language.

Best regards,

-a-

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9 hours ago, Mooney Dog said:

Ah i remember wanting to do that instead of getting my CFI... Now i am an CFI/CFII/MEI

a1: Most mooneys are going to be close to the same, till you start getting into the HP models. If you're looking for a great just you and one person cruiser, a C/D or E model would work, but you might like the extra space an F or J give you as well. 

a2: You are required to have a HP endorsement to act as PIC of any aircraft with 201 or more HP. For mooneys, thats anything after the J model. More HP generally means more speed in airplane.

a3: It totally depends, but most owners dont hit that point frequently. Most owners of airplane put less than 200 hours on a personal plane a year. 

a4: You're going to have to look around for prices and such. If you're trying to save as much money as you can while getting as many hours possible and stuck on buying. A C/D model with basic IFR stuff would be fine. Basic being 6 pack, 2 OBS, and a single 430. 

 

Gonna tell you right now though, you can pay your way there, but its still going to take you some time and the amount you learn as a CFI can, and will, be worth it. Plus it makes you more appealing to employers if you have a CFI.  

 

Just doing some simple math though. Local club has a arror for $150 an hour. That works out to be 180k for you're 1200 hours of flying. For my aircraft. 85k for the buy, plus fuel, plus other maintenance items, plus tiedown/hanger, plus database fees if keeping the IFR GPS up to date.... etc etc.... 

 

Thanks for your detailed response!

I’ll definitely keep it in mind

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Hey Hank! Thanks for your reply. This may be a sensitive question but what price range should I think of for J?
Because I’m thinking the earliest year I would buy is a 1980.
I bought I used 26 foot boat before but the problems with that boat was frustrating because of the repair costs. And I really don’t want to buy a 1980 model but my budget is limited.

It’s not the year, it’s the owner that counts:
Is there a lot of deferred maintenance? Logs will tell you this, look for pencil whip annuals and if they weren’t timely.
Is the plane flying or is it a hangar queen?
Was it in a hangar or tied down outside?

PPI should be able prevent you from buying a lemon.

All Js are over 20 years old, that’s a long time for any complicated machine if not properly maintained.
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7 hours ago, Daniel.Arbre said:

What do you think about older models?

I’m worried about repair costs with older models. They are about 40-50 years old and technology likely changed a lot. 

The biggest change between a mid 60’s C model and a later C model in a change from manual gear and flaps to electric and from knobs to a quadrant.  There is nothing wrong with an older model, you have to have a thorough PPI looking for corrosion.  Many older airframes have been nicely updated along the way.

 If you’re primarily looking to build time for a career a Mooney can be flown at low power for fuel savings.  With lots of hours in a year there are a couple of recurring 100 hour ADs to be dealt with, but nothing seriously expensive.

Clarence

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After about 10 years the age of a vehicle loses a lot of relevance, after that it becomes more of a condition than age thing, even boats.

We just came off of living on an 1987 Island Packet sailboat for three years and cruising, other then normal maintenance that boat cost nothing. I spent a shed load of money on improvements like a watermaker. generator. solar, etc, etc. but an IP is known as a well built expensive boat and they hold up, if properly maintained.

With larger more expensive boats you have what is called a Survey done, it takes a full day if done correctly and is a very in-depth inspection, the first boat we bought. busted the survey, it was a three year old Hunter and had hull structural problems.

What I am saying is that there are airplanes made in the 60’s that are both corroded pieces of junk, and pristine nearly perfect airframes, as good or better than new. The trick is identifying which is which, and odds are the perfect ones don’t go cheap either.

There are also aircraft less than 20 years old that are pretty much junk, it depends on how well they have been kept up.

This is a picture of a couple of 1940’s aircraft both in great shape, the C-140 is mine, and she turned 75 years old this year, but she is kept in a climate controlled hangar where the humidity isn’t allowed to go over 65% RH, so she should last for longer than I will.

For aircraft age is really just a number, condition is what’s important and unless your an expert only way to determine that is to hire one to inspect.

Just like boats, a real expert can almost certainly pretty quickly tell you if in their opinion a true in depth inspection is warrantied or to keep looking,so you don’t have to pay for a full in-depth inspection if you will listen to them, move onto the next airframe.

A survey and sea trial would have told you to keep looking with that boat you bought.

 

F608C268-735C-4A90-93A7-BDBB6B0D6175.jpeg

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19 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:


It’s not the year, it’s the owner that counts:
Is there a lot of deferred maintenance? Logs will tell you this, look for pencil whip annuals and if they weren’t timely.
Is the plane flying or is it a hangar queen?
Was it in a hangar or tied down outside?

PPI should be able prevent you from buying a lemon.

All Js are over 20 years old, that’s a long time for any complicated machine if not properly maintained.

Thanks Tom!

Very good advice. Thats easy to miss so its a good reminder.

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16 hours ago, M20Doc said:

The biggest change between a mid 60’s C model and a later C model in a change from manual gear and flaps to electric and from knobs to a quadrant.  There is nothing wrong with an older model, you have to have a thorough PPI looking for corrosion.  Many older airframes have been nicely updated along the way.

 If you’re primarily looking to build time for a career a Mooney can be flown at low power for fuel savings.  With lots of hours in a year there are a couple of recurring 100 hour ADs to be dealt with, but nothing seriously expensive.

Clarence

Thanks Clarence! I think then I’ll have to go for something later than 1980 because I don’t like the manual gear lol

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There are M20Cs around here with electric gear…

The only challenge with manual gear… is shoulder health…. 
 

You need at least one healthy shoulder… preferably the right one…

:)

We have an example of a mid aged guy that started flying Mooneys and transitioned into flying twin engine commercial for CapeAir around here somewhere…

Best regards,

-a-

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13 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

After about 10 years the age of a vehicle loses a lot of relevance, after that it becomes more of a condition than age thing, even boats.

We just came off of living on an 1987 Island Packet sailboat for three years and cruising, other then normal maintenance that boat cost nothing. I spent a shed load of money on improvements like a watermaker. generator. solar, etc, etc. but an IP is known as a well built expensive boat and they hold up, if properly maintained.

With larger more expensive boats you have what is called a Survey done, it takes a full day if done correctly and is a very in-depth inspection, the first boat we bought. busted the survey, it was a three year old Hunter and had hull structural problems.

What I am saying is that there are airplanes made in the 60’s that are both corroded pieces of junk, and pristine nearly perfect airframes, as good or better than new. The trick is identifying which is which, and odds are the perfect ones don’t go cheap either.

There are also aircraft less than 20 years old that are pretty much junk, it depends on how well they have been kept up.

This is a picture of a couple of 1940’s aircraft both in great shape, the C-140 is mine, and she turned 75 years old this year, but she is kept in a climate controlled hangar where the humidity isn’t allowed to go over 65% RH, so she should last for longer than I will.

For aircraft age is really just a number, condition is what’s important and unless your an expert only way to determine that is to hire one to inspect.

Just like boats, a real expert can almost certainly pretty quickly tell you if in their opinion a true in depth inspection is warrantied or to keep looking,so you don’t have to pay for a full in-depth inspection if you will listen to them, move onto the next airframe.

A survey and sea trial would have told you to keep looking with that boat you bought.

 

F608C268-735C-4A90-93A7-BDBB6B0D6175.jpeg

Hey! I like your aircraft decal and color. 

I hired a surveyor when I bought my boat and it was very helpful so I got a 20 page report with the findings. 

I had to get this because we needed to determine the value of the boat and let the loan underwriter know. 

Also there is a method of determining market value of a boat (I can’t remember the name of the book/application).

Is it the same for aircrafts?

 

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23 hours ago, carusoam said:

Daniel,

Your written English is as good as mine!

I don’t have another language to fall back on…. :)

Practice reading and writing a lot… you can get really good at it as time goes on…

Don’t tell anyone… I had to learn to read and write again… I did at MooneySpace… :)

Pick a subject, read about it, write about it….  Repeat…

For fun, when Covid clears more… go to a Mooney fly in… talk about Mooney flying, maintenance, and traveling….

What is your primary language?  We probably have a few MSers that share your language.

Best regards,

-a-

Lol! I am preparing for many checkrides so my subject is determined for me.

My language is Korean. I don’t have problems with reading or writing but speaking is my weakness and so I don’t want to do CFI.

Its because I learned English 20 years ago in college.

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5 minutes ago, Daniel.Arbre said:

Hey! I like your aircraft decal and color. 

I hired a surveyor when I bought my boat and it was very helpful so I got a 20 page report with the findings. 

I had to get this because we needed to determine the value of the boat and let the loan underwriter know. 

Also there is a method of determining market value of a boat (I can’t remember the name of the book/application).

Is it the same for aircrafts?

 

Nearly the same…

But the market values are harder to come by…

Look up the words PPI… Pre-purchase inspection…

 

The MooneyFlyer has a pretty usable price guide published in it…

Jimmie at GMax is also good at assigning value..


There are no standards so getting a PPI done properly to fit your needs and your budget is up to you…

As is the steps for finance, sales agreement, and assorted other details…

Best regards,

-a-

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6 minutes ago, carusoam said:

There are M20Cs around here with electric gear…

The only challenge with manual gear… is shoulder health…. 
 

You need at least one healthy shoulder… preferably the right one…

:)

We have an example of a mid aged guy that started flying Mooneys and transitioned into flying twin engine commercial for CapeAir around here somewhere…

Best regards,

-a-

A- 

hahaha yea so true. I have a old shoulder injury from tennis so I guess I’ll have to buy a J model. I tried looking for M20Cs but no electric gear!

Also do J models need to get high performance endorsement??

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4 minutes ago, Daniel.Arbre said:

A- 

hahaha yea so true. I have a old shoulder injury from tennis so I guess I’ll have to buy a J model. I tried looking for M20Cs but no electric gear!

Also do J models need to get high performance endorsement??


With the 200hp, technically no… but, you need the complex to go with that….

The usual route… Transition Training in the new 2U plane…

Insurance will dictate what you need done… a Mooney specific CFI is your key to proper transition…

Need an insurance guy… we have Parker…

Best regards,

-a-

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