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Minnesota Crash


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Flight track here seems to match date and time…

With the still photo taken from the video, posted above… (I think)

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N9156Z/history/20210807/2151Z/KAXN/KFCM/tracklog

Last data point doesn’t show anything but ordinary flight regimes…

There isn’t anything showing the high descent rate reported elsewhere…

Best regards,

-a-

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4 minutes ago, Davidv said:

I just came across this, someone got the ATC audio.  It's impossible to draw any conclusions other than something may have been distracting the pilot (mechanical, weather, or otherwise) which made him miss several radio calls immediately after checking in.  Then he responds to the low altitude alert with a "roger"... I'm assuming the audio playback is real time and not edited down, but could be wrong.

 

He wasn’t flying fast or changing altitude rapidly.  He was low however. 
 

AB3B6A83-2B84-4BA8-8AE5-66AADD86BB1B.png

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Last page of the collected flight data…

One piece of speed information at the end is closer to stall speed, but is GPS speed not airspeed…

Some fast directional changes occurring in the final seconds but not giant….

-a-

 

7A3B4FC8-EFC1-456A-88B1-555E13F0C44E.png

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Interesting time stamp difference on the last line…

Reporting 6pm then stating 5pm in local time… 6:48 vs. 5:48

Last whole piece of flight data… adjusted by the hour… 5:39:36…

Time in the frame from the video…  5:40.06

 

 

Keep in mind the data rate leaves giant spaces…. Data is reported every 15 seconds sometimes… near a minute the next time…

-a-

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Double check that audio…

Possible health issues… similar to CO poisoning….

I can understand ATC clearly…

ATC Is asking if the pilot needs assistance…

The pilot is difficult for me to understand… (I have some hearing challenges…)

He is slow in response… and not on altitude… while cleared to land…

Mooneys don’t break up even in much tougher environments…

The wing is broken in the middle….

But doesn’t empty the fuel tanks until impact….

Being below maneuvering speed usually assures the wing to stay in tact… so the wing stalls before it breaks…

Some things that are worth looking into… :wacko:

Yikes… and prayers…

-a-

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The pics with the folded wings are scary. Afaik no Mooney ever experienced this kind of wing failure. This may well spell a major safety issue akin the wing sep of the Piper Arrow in FLA a couple of years ago. 

Too early for any conclusions obviously but these pics have me very much concerned. 

 

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1 hour ago, Davidv said:

I just came across this, someone got the ATC audio.  It's impossible to draw any conclusions other than something may have been distracting the pilot (mechanical, weather, or otherwise) which made him miss several radio calls immediately after checking in.  Then he responds to the low altitude alert with a "roger"... I'm assuming the audio playback is real time and not edited down, but could be wrong.

 

What does he say right after "Roger"?  He sounds incoherent.  Then no response to tower as he makes the S-turns although tower keeps calling him.

Confusion from CO poisoning?

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55 minutes ago, Urs_Wildermuth said:

The pics with the folded wings are scary. Afaik no Mooney ever experienced this kind of wing failure. This may well spell a major safety issue akin the wing sep of the Piper Arrow in FLA a couple of years ago. 

Too early for any conclusions obviously but these pics have me very much concerned. 

 

Where do you see folded wings?...

 

Untitled4.png

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I don’t know if they had already snapped in the previous frame or snapped between frames but they both snapped in the exact same location by this frame. 

AA903D94-F7F1-4C77-96D9-EB12DB457F75.png

Edited by V1VRV2
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In the frame grab right before impact, I think the wing is blocking the rear window... We should be able to see it with the plane in that attitude.

I cannot imagine how that happened without hitting something prior to the ground. I hope there is enough left to analyze.

Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk

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5 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

What does he say right after "Roger"?  He sounds incoherent.  Then no response to tower as he makes the S-turns although tower keeps calling him.

Confusion from CO poisoning?

Tough to say, I found the actual ATC recording and the timing mirrors the one posted to youtube.  I think this was some that had started prior to the check in with tower or he was impaired in some way.  Just a very odd exchange, "Tower umm...checking in", then miss 3 landing clearances, and respond by saying "go ahead tower".  Any pilot who isn't a student would expect instructions immediately after checking in with tower. It's not an enroute check in where you get a "welcome" and altimeter setting.

I also heard the controller speaking with the king air that landed in front of him and there wasn't any warning of weather on final.

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First off thoughts and prayers to all involved and affected by this horrible event. All accidents in the aviation community hit close to home, and in the Mooney community it feels like it’s next door.

I’m not hear to question how it happened or second guess the pilot, I hate when we do that.

I do have 2 questions, the first I ask out of ignorance. I thought carbon monoxide issues where a winter thing when using cabin heat? I know it’s Minnesota, but I fly to northern Michigan  all summer and don’t use heat even at 11,000.

Second question; the second picture with the bent wings, is it possible that moment was captured after a bounce? I have no idea I’ve never heard of both wings, or either wing in a Mooney doing that, and I can’t imagine power lines caused that.

Again, prayers to all involved.

Lawrence 

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He was right on the button for one of the approaches into FCM until the last few seconds of the flight. Intercept altitude is 2700 or 2800 depending on which approach and the RNAV 10L allows descent to 2100 in that area, the others keep you at 2700. The field is 906 and there is not much in the way of terrain out west, where he was.  Clearly from his contact with tower something was going on, health or distraction in the cockpit. He had to be on approach at some point, it was hard IMC all day yesterday (and still is as I write this). However, the flight track was deviating slightly left of course - about 400 - 600 yards, then trying to return to course, then turning 180 due north away from the approach course in the last moments. Could have been a cell on the approach course he was trying to avoid, and heavy turbulence, but if there was, ATC or FCM tower would already have warned him.

There would have been no bounce, there are trees and structures on the other side of that street that the plane came from, he would have hit something. I just walked that street a little over a week ago and had dinner about two blocks left of where the plane ended up.

Yes, thoughts and prayers to everyone involved. 

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More pure speculation, but often when someone is overcome by events, like trying to deal with a difficult problem, they load shed less important actions, like maybe talking on the radio.

‘If the aircraft were failing structurally, he may have been struggling for control, and only partially paying attention to the radio.

‘Some of you smarter people with computers than I am, how old was the aircraft, and was there a 337 in the past for serious structural repair? I don’t see wires or a pole braking both wings, and leaving the aircraft still pointed in direction of flight.

There will I’m certain be enough left to analyze 

Edited by A64Pilot
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4 hours ago, KSMooniac said:

In the frame grab right before impact, I think the wing is blocking the rear window... We should be able to see it with the plane in that attitude.

I cannot imagine how that happened without hitting something prior to the ground. I hope there is enough left to analyze.

Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk
 

 

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It looks like both wings are folded up. I had two friends killed several years ago when they encountered a thunderstorm over Monroe La. N577RS. NTSB said it receives 24 g’s and broke wing in half right in the middle. Both wings folded up  and both horizontals on tail. 

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It was a 92 model, my swag is corrosion is much less likely in such a new airframe.

I would say thunderstom turbulence as T storms have even torn up Century series fighters and even Scott Crossfield couldn’t survive a T storm penetration when he was vectored into one, and if he couldn’t no one can.

‘But that video seems to indicate the wings folded just prior to impact, and the aircraft seems to be in a stalled attitude, but no spin, so the nose up wasn’t prolonged?

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3 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

He may have been on autopilot and problems began after it was disengaged.
If in a steep descent (1000+ ft/min) and you yank back on the yoke in panic, how many Gs could be created? Anyone have a sim with G meter?

The Sim is going to show you what’s it’s programmed to, not necessarily even close to reality.

G is airspeed dependent, we proved for example that on an S2R-H80 even at gross weight if you stayed within the VNE, the wings couldn’t generate enough lift to break themselves, but if you were going fast enough, then certainly.

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9 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

More pure speculation, but often when someone is overcome by events, like trying to deal with a difficult problem, they load shed less important actions, like maybe talking on the radio.

‘If the aircraft were failing structurally, he may have been struggling for control, and only partially paying attention to the radio.

‘Some of you smarter people with computers than I am, how old was the aircraft, and was there a 337 in the past for serious structural repair? I don’t see wires or a pole braking both wings, and leaving the aircraft still pointed in direction of flight.

There will I’m certain be enough left to analyze 

Exactly.   IMHO if a (single) pilot is struggling it doesn't help to have a controller badger you for a response.   Aviate, navigate, communicate.  Isn't that the priority?

I wonder if the video frame is an artifact of the camera and a high speed object.  It's also possible that a sudden pitch up to where the flight path angle is normal to the belly could overstress the wing.  The FAA will eventually conclude the primary cause is a loss of control.  They may never find a secondary cause.

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