Jump to content

Best hearing protection


RobertGary1

Recommended Posts

I have tinnitus which is aggregated by loud noises. My current anr headset is still causing issues with my tinnitus. 
Ive seen good reviews for the Bose a20 but most reviews are focused on comfort. Comfort is a very low priority for me. 
Has anyone reviewed the various offerings purely on best war protection?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

I have tinnitus which is aggregated by loud noises. My current anr headset is still causing issues with my tinnitus. 
Ive seen good reviews for the Bose a20 but most reviews are focused on comfort. Comfort is a very low priority for me. 
Has anyone reviewed the various offerings purely on best war protection?

If you’re looking for maximum protection then forget about ANR. Double bagging will be the way to go. Earplugs with passive headphones on top. Clunky, awkward, but blocks the most sound.

Or, if you have trouble making out the radios, Halo with custom molded ear pieces on the bottom and passive noise blocker headset on top. 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, hammdo said:

Found it:

-Don

In my review, I said that the Bose provide the quietest ride. However, I am not completely convinced that this is the same as the best protection. ANR still makes sound to offset sound. I'm still not completely convinced that it isn't an illusion of quiet as opposed to actually quiet. The passive protection on those ANR sets is pretty minimal as anyone will notice with the ANR off. This is definite protection. However, I'm not convinced that the ANR actually eliminates the noise as opposed to making it invisible/inaudible. So it is possible the sound/pressure is there but you don't detect it. This may be enough not to get a headache from listening to too much noise all day. However, if the ear is sensitive to pressure, that pressure may still be on the ear even though it goes undetected. Kind of like RF being invisible/undetectable to us but still radiation bombarding the body. That's my way of thinking about it.

On the other hand, double bagging headsets will just as much block the audible sound as it will block the pressure. I haven't tried, but I've heard from others that the result is quieter than ANR in any case.

The choices are to put the audio inside and additional protection on the outside or put the audio outside and additional protection inside. Normally I'd recommend the Halo alone. But, when it comes to doubling up, if the sound output of the headphones is enough to reach you well through ear plugs, I still think this is slightly better than a Halo under ear muffs. The reason is cause you'd have to stick the audio tubes under the ear muffs and that will make some leakage. Whereas passive headset over ear plugs (without glasses) will have no leak.

By the way, if you do regularly wear glasses, using an in the ear headset like Halo may help compared to ANR because glasses tend to make some sound leak by.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, RobertGary1 said:

Anyone have a link to the "Halo". Is this an ear plug?

It’s definitely worth giving Halo a shot.  It’s definitely good quality and works.  The others are all basically the same thing - either ANR or passive, but just minor differences in comfort and weight and cost.  Halo is a whole different approach.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Beaver is unbearably loud -- you're sitting three feet behind an unmuffled R-985 and a big prop. I have a Zulu 3 and an A20. The A20 is definitely quieter, but not by a lot. My M20J is not as loud as the Beaver, but it's louder than most GA airplanes. In the Mooney, I use the Zulu because I find the earpads more comfortable on long flights. Also, the Zulu has better passive attenuation and might be better if higher frequencies are an issue. 

Your ear is sensitive to variations in air pressure (that's what sound is). ANR cancels the pressure waves generated by ambient noise with out of phase pressure waves generated within the ear cup. The effect is reduced pressure variation at the eardrum and so it is actually quieter.

Everyone is different, the only way to tell what works best for you is to try all methods until you find the one that you prefer.

Skip

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, 201er said:

I'm not convinced that the ANR actually eliminates the noise as opposed to making it invisible/inaudible. So it is possible the sound/pressure is there but you don't detect it.

I've seen this claim in several places.  I'm trying to keep an open mind, but I'm having a hard time understanding the claim from a physics standpoint.

Sound is just waves of air pressure.  The higher the amplitude of those waves, the more your body (eardrums in particular) is affected by them, and the greater the potential for damage from long-term exposure.  By definition, ANR reduces the amplitude of the original pressure waves, by broadcasting pressure waves that are out of phase with the original sound.  It's not a perfect match, but the net result is always lower amplitude of pressure waves.  Statements that "the sound/pressure is there but you don't detect it" are tough for me to reconcile with the physics as I understand them.

The only way I think this claim could be true is if the ANR were frequency shifting the original sound to a very high/low frequency that cannot be heard by the average human, rather than decreasing its amplitude.  Anything is possible - maybe there is some harmonic effect - but frequency shifting is certainly not what ANR systems are designed to do.

None of this is meant to suggest that good passive protection and/or "double bagging" isn't the best belt-and-suspenders approach.  I just don't get the skepticism about ANR being effective in preventing long-term hearing damage.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bose are pretty noisy in the Mooney. 
I just flew 2000nm in our M20e with clarity aloft and I felt great. Noise fatigue was much better than the Bose I’ve had for the last few years. I always hated putting things in my ears but just something you need to get used to.

I was not hearing well in the Falcon at work either. My coworker and I now ware the same clarity alofts and we here each other much better. 
-Matt

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, 201er said:

If you’re looking for maximum protection then forget about ANR. Double bagging will be the way to go. Earplugs with passive headphones on top. Clunky, awkward, but blocks the most sound.

Or, if you have trouble making out the radios, Halo with custom molded ear pieces on the bottom and passive noise blocker headset on top. 

This is correct - an in the ear foam plug headset like clarity aloft or halo, plus passive noise blocking muffs on top will give the best possible protection.  Difficulty perceiving changes in engine noise may be another downside beyond the added discomfort 

Edited by DXB
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

I always assumed anr is like when you have a wave in the pool and you splash an inverse wave and when they come together they cancel each other as calm water. . 

Yup.   The cancellation (reduction, actually, not complete cancellation, in the case of anr), really does diminish the amount of power in the pressure waves reaching your ear canal.   It sounds quieter because it is.   If it wasn't it'd still be loud.    The physics is pretty straightforward.  

I have tinnitus as well and it's been getting worse, I'm told mostly because I'm getting older.   I doubt being in an airplane helps, anr or passive attenuation or not.   You pick up some audio input just from the rest of your head/skull/jaw vibrating in the ambient pressure waves as well, and the most attenuating headset in the world doesn't stop that.   For the anr in the Zulu 3 goes a long way toward letting me hear what I need to hear a lot better and reduce the amount of noise power getting to my ear, and that's about all I can ask for, I think.

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also protect your hearing in other non-aviation environments. Lawn mowers m, power tools, etc will all have a detrimental effect on hearing. 
 

I’ve moved from lightspeed z3 to Qt halos.  I use the yellow foam plugs. If I got custom molded silicone they’d be even quieter.  If I put a headset on top, they’d probably be as near to silent as possible in a moving aircraft. No more headaches from my glasses / sunglasses, hat on long flights!! 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, bradp said:


...I’ve moved from lightspeed z3 to Qt halos.  I use the yellow foam plugs. If I got custom molded silicone they’d be even quieter.  If I put a headset on top, they’d probably be as near to silent as possible in a moving aircraft. No more headaches from my glasses / sunglasses, hat on long flights!! 

AMEN! ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

I have tinnitus which is aggregated by loud noises. My current anr headset is still causing issues with my tinnitus. 
Ive seen good reviews for the Bose a20 but most reviews are focused on comfort. Comfort is a very low priority for me. 
Has anyone reviewed the various offerings purely on best war protection?

I tried the Bose, the light speed, and the Dave Clark anr’s. 
I have tinnitus as well, with some near total loss of certain ranges in one ear. 
when I fly for several hours with a noise canceling my ears literally hurt for a few days.  
I finally tried the clarity aloft in ear passive and found these to be the quietest, easiest to hear act, and most comfortable by far of any other headset. 
Ive been using them for over five years and every now and then I will grab one of the Bose in my plane to try again and seldom make it more than 30 min before switching out. 
It’s a real individual choice, you must just try them all to see what works best for you. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here is the skinny on ear protection. My basis for this is that I used to shoot sporting clays competitively, went through a few hundred thousand rounds and shot in some World Championships in Europe. Earplug-only protection is mediocre. Sound reaches your inner ear (where it can do damage) both through the ear itself, and through the bones immediately behind the ear. Ear plugs may be spectacular at protecting against the sound coming into the ear but do nothing about the secondary source and you will continue to have your hearing degrade. 201er is right that if you want the very best protection you can get, the “double bagging” approach is it, the problem is that it is uncomfortable and you will have difficulty hearing the sounds you need to hear, which is ATC talking to you. I have the A20’s and I had X’s before that. The ANR really helps. Tinnitus is a sign that you have lost high frequency hearing and it is not coming back ever. Standard hearing aids do nothing to help with that because all they do is selectively increase the volume of frequencies you are having difficulty hearing, mainly high frequencies. They are not selective, so if you were to go to a restaurant the clatter of silver and dishes would be deafening and makes it very difficult to hear conversation. ANR is the only way to go, it cuts out the high frequency noise so that what high frequency hearing you still have, has a chance to work. You can buy $6,000 hearing aids and they will be useless junk.

A separate issue is cause. Everyone focuses on high db sounds as the cause for tinnitus and hearing loss and it is a cause. However, there are medications that also cause permanent high frequency hearing loss if taken often enough and in high enough doses, and that includes all NSAIDS. So if you are taking ibuprofen, aspirin, celebrex, naproxen is one of the worst, on a regular basis you are going to continue to lose hearing. They are all ototoxic.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have about 30K hours in various aircraft.  I never experienced tinnitus until I (recently) started wearing an ANR headset.  Prior to ANR, I just wore the passive headsets.  While my tinnitus my have come on as a result of age, this experience has made me question ANR's real versus perceived benefits.

Just one data point.

Interesting question.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It has not been specifically mentioned in this thread that some ANR headsets like some of the  David Clarks (H10-13 and H20-10) are built around the passive noise cancelling ear cups that were used before ANR headsets were popular.  Thus, you have the same passive noise cancellation of the pre-ANR era plus the noise cancellation of the ANR system now installed in them.

John Breda

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, PT20J said:

Interesting, particularly this quote:  "ANR is only effective in the low frequency range, below 500 Hz, because of physical limitation whose examination goes beyond the scope of this paper."  A little more digging turns up this Avweb tutorial which says typical aviation ANR headsets only cancel low-frequency sound, and actually "overboost" noise a few dB in a small region around that.

So I think I stand corrected: ANR has important limitations on protection, despite how good it sounds perceptually.  What's unclear to me is how much cockpit noise occurs that is actually outside the range where ANR is effective.  I found one paper here that suggests intensity doesn't roll off below 85db until about 1000 Hz: https://www.faa.gov/data_research/research/med_humanfacs/oamtechreports/1960s/media/AM68-21.pdf

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Vance Harral said:

Interesting, particularly this quote:  "ANR is only effective in the low frequency range, below 500 Hz, because of physical limitation whose examination goes beyond the scope of this paper."  A little more digging turns up this Avweb tutorial which says typical aviation ANR headsets only cancel low-frequency sound, and actually "overboost" noise a few dB in a small region around that.

So I think I stand corrected: ANR has important limitations on protection, despite how good it sounds perceptually.  What's unclear to me is how much cockpit noise occurs that is actually outside the range where ANR is effective.  I found one paper here that suggests intensity doesn't roll off below 85db until about 1000 Hz: https://www.faa.gov/data_research/research/med_humanfacs/oamtechreports/1960s/media/AM68-21.pdf

It's a mistake to look at the active cancellation performance in isolation. What is important is the combined effect of the passive cancellation and the active cancellation.

Passive headsets are essentially low-pass acoustic filters. They work pretty well attenuating frequencies above 1kHz, but aren't as effective below that. Much piston engine airplane noise comes from the engine and propeller. A four cylinder engine running at 2500 rpm fires twice per revolution so it emits exhaust pulses at the rate of 83 Hz. A two bladed prop emits pulses at the same frequency. Six cylinder engines and three bladed props will have a somewhat higher frequency.

Figure 12 in the article I posted shows that the Bose passively attenuates about 25 dB at 1 kHz and the Zulu about 18 dB. (That's interesting since Lightspeed claims that the Zulu's magnesium earcups have superior passive attenuation). However, both headsets have essentially no passive attenuation at 100 Hz. The purpose of the active cancellation is to increase the low frequency attenuation so that the headset attenuation curve is flatter.

Skip

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, PT20J said:

It's a mistake to look at the active cancellation performance in isolation. What is important is the combined effect of the passive cancellation and the active cancellation.

Passive headsets are essentially low-pass acoustic filters. They work pretty well attenuating frequencies above 1kHz, but aren't as effective below that. Much piston engine airplane noise comes from the engine and propeller. A four cylinder engine running at 2500 rpm fires twice per revolution so it emits exhaust pulses at the rate of 83 Hz. A two bladed prop emits pulses at the same frequency. Six cylinder engines and three bladed props will have a somewhat higher frequency.

Figure 12 in the article I posted shows that the Bose passively attenuates about 25 dB at 1 kHz and the Zulu about 18 dB. (That's interesting since Lightspeed claims that the Zulu's magnesium earcups have superior passive attenuation). However, both headsets have essentially no passive attenuation at 100 Hz. The purpose of the active cancellation is to increase the low frequency attenuation so that the headset attenuation curve is flatter.

Skip

What would you think about pairing a Bose a20 with orange ear plugs?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.