A few questions about buying my first one

[rwabdu]

Hi all, 

I am looking at buying a Mooney M20c as my first aircraft. The mission is for cross country flights about 250mi once  or twice a month, for just myself or maybe one other person and to get my IFR in the next year as well.

 

Can anyone recommend of a good Mooney mechanic in the Maryland area to do a pre-buy? I am just learning about the process of buying an airplane, so if you all have any recommendations about the steps involved, how to get some financing, and anything specific to the old Mooneys that I should be looking at? I know fuel tank leaks are sometimes an issue. What are the early steps on how to get a pre-buy agreement, when to put a deposit down, if its refundable, how to decide on the right price for the airplane etc. So far hanger space is hard to find here in Michigan, may need to consider an outdoor tie down for the summer months, thoughts? Lastly, there is always that question in the back of my head, can I afford this? and honestly I'm not really sure I will know unless I move forward with the buy and find out how much all those variable costs will be.

[201er]

1 minute ago, rwabdu said:

Hi all, 

I am looking at buying a Mooney M20c as my first aircraft. The mission is for cross country flights about 250mi once  or twice a month, for just myself or maybe one other person and to get my IFR in the next year as well.

 

Can anyone recommend of a good Mooney mechanic in the Maryland area to do a pre-buy? I am just learning about the process of buying an airplane, so if you all have any recommendations about the steps involved, how to get some financing, and anything specific to the old Mooneys that I should be looking at? I know fuel tank leaks are sometimes an issue. What are the early steps on how to get a pre-buy agreement, when to put a deposit down, if its refundable, how to decide on the right price for the airplane etc. So far hanger space is hard to find here in Michigan, may need to consider an outdoor tie down for the summer months, thoughts? Lastly, there is always that question in the back of my head, can I afford this? and honestly I'm not really sure I will know unless I move forward with the buy and find out how much all those variable costs will be.

The good news is you’ve got @jetdrivenbased at Gaithersburg and he’s not only a mechanic but a Mooney owner and flight instructor. The bad news is, he’s slow as heck and still not done with my airplane so you can’t have him right now. If you’re willing to wait till he’s finished by around mid August, he can just as much help you with learning to fly it as take a look at what’s inside. Other than taking forever doing my annual and bailing halfway through to go to Osh, I can recommend the guy.

[cwaters]

1 hour ago, rwabdu said:

Hi all, 

I am looking at buying a Mooney M20c as my first aircraft. The mission is for cross country flights about 250mi once  or twice a month, for just myself or maybe one other person and to get my IFR in the next year as well.

 

Can anyone recommend of a good Mooney mechanic in the Maryland area to do a pre-buy? I am just learning about the process of buying an airplane, so if you all have any recommendations about the steps involved, how to get some financing, and anything specific to the old Mooneys that I should be looking at? I know fuel tank leaks are sometimes an issue. What are the early steps on how to get a pre-buy agreement, when to put a deposit down, if its refundable, how to decide on the right price for the airplane etc. So far hanger space is hard to find here in Michigan, may need to consider an outdoor tie down for the summer months, thoughts? Lastly, there is always that question in the back of my head, can I afford this? and honestly I'm not really sure I will know unless I move forward with the buy and find out how much all those variable costs will be.

I recently bought my J (January 2021) it was a long process for me, I took nearly a year finding my bird. the combination of finding something in my price range that had what I wanted and more importantly what I didn't want (older engine...). Good news is your in the right place and on the right track to learn from some amazingly knowledgeable people. AOPA has a few articles about the rough steps and their respective order. The market is a bit tight right now with higher prices and quick purchases. As for hangar vs tie down, I tied down at first and got fed up with birds making it home in a matter of hours, I would come to the airport and spend more than an hour digging a nest out of the nose or tail. So I found a hangar, its a bit of a drive from my home, but that extra driving time is not as frustrating as taking the cowl off to get a nest out or waiting on ice to thaw. 

 

My process was as follows: 

figure out what you can set aside each year for the plane. there are a few threads here about annual expenses and many out there in the ga community who are "if you have to ask..." I'm not a fan of that thinking so I did as much research as I could and figured out if I could make it work in my budget. PM me if you want a bit more detail or numbers. You will never know exact numbers before you buy but I am of the camp that thinks you can get a ball park and see if its with in possible for you before buying.  Figure out about how much you will actually fly each year as well, be real with yourself about it and how often you will get out and fly then add a few hrs to that because owning means you will find random reasons to fly. 

1) find the plane I wanted 

2) put a deposit and sign purchase agreement (basically reserving the plane and setting what if any of the deposit is non-refundable and terms), in parallel get approved for financing, get insurance quote 

3) set up pre-buy with your choice of mechanic (highly recommend the mechanic you want) 

4) negotiate based on results of pre-buy or walk, set up insurance

5) pick up plane 

 

 

Just my 0.02 and not worth that much 

[Rusty Pilot]

Best of luck, I bought my Mooney about 3 years ago.  I live in MD, but keep my plane at KEZF Fredericksbug, VA where I have a great mechanic available.  Enjoy the journey!  A C is a great airplane, mine is a 1974.  You should also consider transition training requirements.  Byron is great as is Lee Fox down at KEZF.  I have flown with both for Flight Reviews.

[cwaters]

1 hour ago, Rusty Pilot said:

Best of luck, I bought my Mooney about 3 years ago.  I live in MD, but keep my plane at KEZF Fredericksbug, VA where I have a great mechanic available.  Enjoy the journey!  A C is a great airplane, mine is a 1974.  You should also consider transition training requirements.  Byron is great as is Lee Fox down at KEZF.  I have flown with both for Flight Reviews.

+10000 for Lee Fox, he did my transition training for my J and helped me go down and pick it up. He has been instrumental with my development as a Mooney pilot. Also KEZF is a great little airport, that 3K runway still puts me on my toes as I get more confident, but that restaurant is worth it.

[TigerFan]

I’ll second Byron Rogers and his staff at RPM Aviation KGAI. He recently turned my PPI into a annual working day and night to ensure nothing was overlooked. Extremely knowledgeable, great service and always available to answer my questions. 

[lamont337]

I'm in Michigan also, where are you looking for hangar space?

[rwabdu]

1 hour ago, lamont337 said:

I'm in Michigan also, where are you looking for hangar space?

I am out of Troy, but considering Ray Community as everything around Troy is >300$ a month. Thinking of getting a tie down near my house in the summer and then a hangar out of town for the winter months. 

Edited July 30, 2021 by rwabdu

[rwabdu]

I really appellate all your help. I got in emailed Byron today after the first response to this post and he called me right back. The more I read, the more questions I have:

- Is there anything I should be looking at carefully before buying a short body Mooney? I have heard the fuel tanks are one source of problems.

- Is it reasonable to call up the mechanic who did the last annual on the airplane and talk to them? The thing that scares me is buying the airplane with the possibility I may need to come up with an additional 10-20thousand dollars for some unforeseen problem in the first year or two. Seems like this plane has bene flying 30-50 hours early with 1000h left on the engine. 

- How much should a pre-buy cost? 

- When should I make a deposit and sign a purchase agreement take it off the market? is that deposit usually refundable? how much is it usually?  

- Should I fly down to see it first or should I get the pre-buy inspection done first before going in person? 

- trying to figure out how much yearly costs might be has been hard. I was estimating for a 100hr vfr private pilot: 2000$ for insurance, 1000$ annual, 2000$ hangar?

[MikeOH]

I can't help with A&P advice as I'm on the left coast!

But, I've had '70 M20F for the last four years and average about 70 hours a year.  Costs have varied a bit from year to year (this year's on track to be the lowest cost yet!), but I've spent between $13K and $18K per year; that is ALL in!  I track every cost associated with flying; my rule is that if it is an expense I wouldn't have if I didn't fly, it is included.  That means CFI fees to shop towels.

Bottom line, you should be comfortable spending between $15K to $20K per year.  IMHO, of course  The other elephant in the room you touched on: something major (e.g. engine overhaul) could happen at any time.  You should be able to handle $20K to $30K.  Otherwise the plane is going to sit...and you can find many examples rotting on the ramp planes that the owner never could come up with the coin to repair.  Not trying to be doom & gloom.  Just make sure you are honest with yourself (and your director of finance, if applicable)

My first criteria when evaluating an aircraft is recency of use.  It sounds like the one you're looking at meets that!

Good luck!

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard rw!

There is a search function around here…

Ask the easy questions there first…

it will take six months to get to the hard ones… at the rate you can go waiting for responses…

I bought my M20C 21 years ago….  There wasn’t an MS to ask questions to…

You are welcome to ask any question you want….  And take as long as you want…  as a Mooney pilot… you’re going to run out of patience going the slow route…  

+1 for Byron… he helped me break in a new IO550 a few years back…. He has skills from being a great mechanic to flying things like big jets… and skillful at flying M20s….

Best regards,

-a-

[Guest]

10 hours ago, rwabdu said:

I really appellate all your help. I got in emailed Byron today after the first response to this post and he called me right back. The more I read, the more questions I have:

- Is there anything I should be looking at carefully before buying a short body Mooney? I have heard the fuel tanks are one source of problems.

- Is it reasonable to call up the mechanic who did the last annual on the airplane and talk to them? The thing that scares me is buying the airplane with the possibility I may need to come up with an additional 10-20thousand dollars for some unforeseen problem in the first year or two. Seems like this plane has bene flying 30-50 hours early with 1000h left on the engine. 

- How much should a pre-buy cost? 

- When should I make a deposit and sign a purchase agreement take it off the market? is that deposit usually refundable? how much is it usually?  

- Should I fly down to see it first or should I get the pre-buy inspection done first before going in person? 

- trying to figure out how much yearly costs might be has been hard. I was estimating for a 100hr vfr private pilot: 2000$ for insurance, 1000$ annual, 2000$ hangar?

Not wanting to burst your bubble.

Your maintenance numbers are unrealistically low in my opinion.  $1000 is 10 hours of labour, who’s doing the rest of the work?  There are also parts to be bought, oil, and filter, air filter, gyro filters, brake linings……….

Insurance has been going up for everyone lately, there is a thread going on it here.

Hangarage varies depending on where you are in the country but I doubt $2000 will work.

The amount of effort your maintainer puts into the PPI will have a direct effect on your future spending.  Classic Mooney airframes can be money pits, they’re  old and corrosion prone.

Clarence

[Rusty Pilot]

Even with a good pre-buy and annual inspection, surprise items pop up such as starter, battery.  Keep in mind Vintage Mooney's are over 45 years old.  The journey is worth it, but not cheap.

 

[Jerry 5TJ]

19 hours ago, rwabdu said:

Can anyone recommend of a good Mooney mechanic in the Maryland area to do a pre-buy?

 

10 hours ago, rwabdu said:

I am out of Troy, but considering Ray Community as everything around Troy is >300$ a month.

Are you in Maryland?  or Michigan?   

 

[201er]

11 hours ago, rwabdu said:

I was estimating for a 100hr vfr private pilot: 2000$ for insurance, 1000$ annual, 2000$ hangar?

More like $3000+ on insurance first year. I hear veteran pilots paying $2000 these days. At least $5000 maintenance. And $2000 to keep it outside. $5000 in gas.

And $10-20k in surprises your first couple years sounds about right. Every time something goes wrong it’s a $1000. Fuel pump goes bad? $1000. Replace all tires? $1000. Replace engine hoses? $1000. Mags need 500 hour inspections? $1000. Replace a vacuum pump and overhaul AI? $1000.

If you’re buying a C cause it’s the right plane for you, go for it. If you’re doing it to be cheap, you’re going to find out it ain’t cheap. I don’t care if you get the plane for nothing, it’s still going to cost a lot to keep it in the air. 

[rwabdu]

3 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

 

Are you in Maryland?  or Michigan?   

 

I am in Michigan, looking at an aircraft in Maryland. 

[rwabdu]

I really appreciate all of your help and advice! thank you

[dlthig]

My estimate is $10k without ever moving the airplane. Hangar, 5; taxes, 1; insurance, 2 and annual, 2. 

[rwabdu]

Thanks very much. There are some hangars around me for 150/month about 20 minutes out of town. 

Going to look at the plane this week to see if we can make a deal.

Spending the next few days reading about what to look for when I get there. 

[Utah20Gflyer]

I'm paying around 2700 a year for insurance as a low time VFR pilot who just bought a Mooney with a 50k hull value.  I have yet to get an annual but the shops I've talked to are around 2500 for the inspection not including additional work which I am sure I'm going to have.  I'm going to try to keep my annual to 5-6k this year and likely similar for several more years until everything is caught up, I would plan on that as a minimum.   I paid 1750 for a prebuy in Tucson AZ, which is about the going rate but the one I got was grossly overpriced for what I got.  I talked to the mechanic who maintained the plane before I bought it.  I think that is reasonable, but take whatever they say with a large dose of skepticism, they have an interest in making the plane sound better than it is, or maybe I should say they want to make their maintenance sound better than it might actually be.  Good luck, it is definitely expensive to own an airplane but it's pretty awesome, way different feel than being a renter.  

[Will.iam]

+1 on checking the insurance. The insurance goes by your experience overall, experience in type of airplane and how much hull value you put on the airplane. A loan company will not let you go below the borrowed amount but if the hull value is too low, say $50k they could just total the airplane for a gear up landing because it’s cheaper to pay the $50k than fix it and you are out an airplane because they are not making any more. If you insure it for higher they will go for the fix it route instead of totaling it and you still have an airplane. Good news is you can call and get quotes now before you buy and know what you would be paying for insurance. 

[Yetti]

Have 10K in the bank after you purchase the plane.   Expect 2500 to 5000 just to get the plane home.   There is a PPI list in the downloads section