Insurance Gulp!

[PT20J]

Here's an interesting article that puts the current conditions in context and (unfortunately) explains why it probably won't get better anytime soon.

https://www.flyingmag.com/story/aircraft/aviation-insurance-in-hard-times/

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[Davidv]

2 hours ago, donkaye said:

Sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words.  Here is the chart of the past 22 years (including this year) of aviation insurance costs for my airplane.  Currently ATP, CFII Master Instructor, 12,000 hours TT, 10,100 Mooney Time, and 6,500 Instructing. 

Assuming this isn't inflation adjusted? If so, looks like your insurance costs have steadily come down over 22 years!

[donkaye]

Even if inflation adjusted, it has definitely increased over the past 4 years; especially this year with a 24% increase.

[Davidv]

18 minutes ago, donkaye said:

Even if inflation adjusted, it has definitely increased over the past 4 years; especially this year with a 24% increase.

It may have gone up over the last few years, but adjusted for CPI your rate 22 years ago was $4300 in today's dollars.  However, there's no denying that the rate has sharply increased over the last few years.  Your graph is very interesting since it shows these periods of increases were somewhat cyclical.  Maybe this current increase cycle is different though given the aging fleet and median pilot age?

[PT20J]

If you look at 2016 - 2020, premiums were lower than all previous years. Perhaps this was below cost. If they did this across the market, it would be unsustainable. Recent increases might just be to compensate and rebuild reserves.

[PT20J]

4 hours ago, donkaye said:

Currently ATP, CFII Master Instructor, 12,000 hours TT, 10,100 Mooney Time, and 6,500 Instructing. 

I remember asking @Parker_Woodruff about this once. I don’t remember the exact numbers, but it seemed that an instrument rating, a few hundred hours total and some time in type were the big break points. After that, advanced ratings and more hours didn’t make a difference. They never seem to care about my DC-3 type rating 

[donkaye]

1 hour ago, Davidv said:

It may have gone up over the last few years, but adjusted for CPI your rate 22 years ago was $4300 in today's dollars.  However, there's no denying that the rate has sharply increased over the last few years.  Your graph is very interesting since it shows these periods of increases were somewhat cyclical.  Maybe this current increase cycle is different though given the aging fleet and median pilot age?

I started using Quicken in 1999, so it was fairly easy to generate the graph shown.  I bought the plane in 1992, so I would have to go back and look at my corporate returns from there until 2000 to see what my early less experienced rates were.

[mike_elliott]

One of these days, Garmin will have the GNS 7000 that is tied to a neural network and using AI, evaluates your flight profiles in real time. Your license and your rates will be determined on how you slap around your aluminum mistress, what kind of situations and weather you expose her and yourself to, etc. Think Im kidding? look for it in Auto insurance in the near future. In fact, look for AI to become a very large player in our future lives. The good thing is it wont penalize us old farts just because we are old and "thats the way we have always done it" actuarial policy. It will hammer the anti authority types and possibly ban you from tweeting about it.

Then, it will be on to autonomous flight.....

 

 

[Will.iam]

4 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

One of these days, Garmin will have the GNS 7000 that is tied to a neural network and using AI, evaluates your flight profiles in real time. Your license and your rates will be determined on how you slap around your aluminum mistress, what kind of situations and weather you expose her and yourself to, etc. Think Im kidding? look for it in Auto insurance in the near future. In fact, look for AI to become a very large player in our future lives. The good thing is it wont penalize us old farts just because we are old and "thats the way we have always done it" actuarial policy. It will hammer the anti authority types and possibly ban you from tweeting about it.

Then, it will be on to autonomous flight.....

 

 

Maybe so but at the speed the FAA is taking just to get CPDLC mandated, it will not be in my lifetime. Europe is usually the first with change before the FAA I.E. RVSM, age 60 increase to 65, CPDLC. When they go single pilot ops will give you a time frame of how soon autonomous flight is coming here.

[mike_elliott]

7 hours ago, Will.iam said:

Maybe so but at the speed the FAA is taking just to get CPDLC mandated, it will not be in my lifetime. Europe is usually the first with change before the FAA I.E. RVSM, age 60 increase to 65, CPDLC. When they go single pilot ops will give you a time frame of how soon autonomous flight is coming here.

well, there is that. It does seem that we lead from behind here.

[tmo]

11 hours ago, Will.iam said:

Europe is usually the first with change before the FAA

Yeah, mostly unwelcome change though. We just recently got rid of calendar TBO enforcement for private ops, for example. And no way in hell are we getting in-flight weather...

[philip_g]

Avgas is almost $9 a gallon. Used Plane prices are way up. New plane prices are unaffordable. Insurance is way up. Bright future for GA.

[Hank]

4 minutes ago, philip_g said:

Avgas is almost $9 a gallon. Used Plane prices are way up.

Come up here in sunny Alabama. Our avgas is $4.31, or it was on my last fill-up. 

[philip_g]

41 minutes ago, Hank said:

Come up here in sunny Alabama. Our avgas is $4.31, or it was on my last fill-up. 

Hard Pass

[201Mooniac]

4 hours ago, Hank said:

Come up here in sunny Alabama. Our avgas is $4.31, or it was on my last fill-up. 

Even here is sunny (and smokey) California I paid $4.49 this weekend, car gas was $4.19.

[M20R]

I just got my renewal and it is up from 3150 to 3562 for my Ovation 250K hull. ATP with 13500 hours and 800 hours in this aircraft. One little change is that they want an Instrument competency check in my aircraft every 12 months even though I recently had an FAA part 135 IFR checkride. No big deal but what are they thinking now?

[WaynePierce]

I just got confirmation on mine, it went up 333.00 to 2841.00 This particular company has a 500.00 deductible moving or not. I'm VFR PPL only and in my 60s.

[philip_g]

1 hour ago, M20R said:

I just got my renewal and it is up from 3150 to 3562 for my Ovation 250K hull. ATP with 13500 hours and 800 hours in this aircraft. One little change is that they want an Instrument competency check in my aircraft every 12 months even though I recently had an FAA part 135 IFR checkride. No big deal but what are they thinking now?

When I had a cirrus I either had to do a cirrus recurrent program or they wanted a bfr and ipc every year with a csip. Depending on the carrier. It is what it is I guess 

[Parker_Woodruff]

1 hour ago, M20R said:

I just got my renewal and it is up from 3150 to 3562 for my Ovation 250K hull. ATP with 13500 hours and 800 hours in this aircraft. One little change is that they want an Instrument competency check in my aircraft every 12 months even though I recently had an FAA part 135 IFR checkride. No big deal but what are they thinking now?

Sometimes the IPC requirement is purely based on the liability limit selected

[carusoam]

9 hours ago, M20R said:

I just got my renewal and it is up from 3150 to 3562 for my Ovation 250K hull. ATP with 13500 hours and 800 hours in this aircraft. One little change is that they want an Instrument competency check in my aircraft every 12 months even though I recently had an FAA part 135 IFR checkride. No big deal but what are they thinking now?

With all that experience….

Can you add something to your avatar to help me with my memory of who you are…

A touch of something unique…

Maybe even a pic…

Go MS!

Best regards,

-a-

[kortopates]

Yeah, mostly unwelcome change though. We just recently got rid of calendar TBO enforcement for private ops, for example. And no way in hell are we getting in-flight weather...

Bummer when in flight weather has been probably right up there with GPS to improve safety. What about commercial providers like WSI and SiriusXM? We had those before FIS here and i was an early adopter.


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[PT20J]

1 hour ago, kortopates said:

Bummer when in flight weather has been probably right up there with GPS to improve safety. What about commercial providers like WSI and SiriusXM? We had those before FIS here and i was an early adopter.


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Paul, do you still have a subscription service? Have you compared them to FIS-B? I've heard that they might still be worth the cost, but I don't have any experience with them.

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[kortopates]

Paul, do you still have a subscription service? Have you compared them to FIS-B? I've heard that they might still be worth the cost, but I don't have any experience with them.
Skip

Yes, I do. The main adavntages now are for instrument pilots that typically fly well in excess of  250 nm because FIS-B broadcast only the weather at about that range with the exception of a lower resolution NEXRAD continental mosaic. But the higher resolution NEXRAD and METARs, (TAF's I forget, but since they only change every 6 hrs its not so important) are limited to approx 250 nm range. I use to also appreciate that sateliite weather gave us everything we wanted to know about our departure path before we took off since often it can be an hour since we had a good look at the weather and waiting to pickup weather till airborne could be concerning, but now at least in my area I can get FIS-B products on the ground before departure - I just can't zoom into the high resolution Nexrad nor see METARs more than 250 nm away without XM. There have been a lot of improvements in both FIS-B and SiriusXM, both new products and near doubled Nexrad refresh rates but Sirius is still faster/shorter latency than FIS-B and Sirius has cloud top heights, echo heights and also includes cloud to cloud strikes whereas FIS-B only supports cloud to ground strikes. Scott D was giving a great seminar that detailed all these differences.  But in sum, when the destination isn’t that far away, then the differences aren't that apparent. 

But XM Music isn't something I can live without anymore on longer cross countries! Edited August 26, 2021 by kortopates

[EricJ]

FWIW, just as another data point, I just renewed my insurance yesterday.   It was a 7% increase for the same coverage compared to the previous year, and was still less than that I *thought* I paid last year, so good news for me all around. 

[ZuluZulu]

Can't remember if I put this in the other thread, but:

- Hull between 100-200k

- 1994 MSE

- 300 total time, 150 hours in type

- Renewed for 3.544 AMU (first year was 3.7 AMU with 150 total time, 1 hour in type)