First Aircraft Purchasing Advice

[swapilot48]

Hello all! My name is Cullen, I’m new around here. I am looking into owning my first aircraft as I’m flying enough that renting is starting to become more expensive then most of the ownership cost estimates I’ve heard out there. I am very interested in the vintage Mooneys with Johnson bar gear (oh boy here we go…) because of the maintenance costs. I am looking for a good cross country airplane, some may call a “personal airliner”. I am totally new to this and would love to get some advice on what to look for in a listing / monthly or hourly costs for such an airplane, and if anyone knows of some for sale, I would love to see them. For reference I am a 250 hour private pilot, just finishing up my instrument rating flying out of the Denver, CO area. I am excited for this opportunity and to hear what all you have to say! Thank you.

[Guest]

Welcome to Mooneyspace.

I’m not sure you can make an argument for ownership being cheaper than renting,  although most of us have convinced ourselves to the point that some own several planes to make it even cheaper.

 What it does offer is a lot more freedom to come and go as you wish and the knowledge of who last flew the plane and what was done with it.

Clarence

 

[201Steve]

Yeah, definitely definitely not cheaper unless you fly like, 300+ hours per year which is pretty tough to do if you have a life or aren’t retired. BUT as Doc mentioned, we can make the math work on paper, every time! Go for it!

[Vance Harral]

Cullen, there are several of us Mooney owners in the Denver area.  My airplane is an electric gear F model based at Longmont, you're welcome to come fly in it and we can chat about cost details (in my case, I'm in a 4-person partnership).  I won't speak for others, but I know a couple of Johnson-bar era Mooneyspacers based in these parts who would probably be willing to give you a ride, if manual gear is of significant interest to you.  Hopefully they'll speak up.  Anyway, PM me if you're interested.

[ArtVandelay]

Welcome to Mooneyspace.

I’m not sure you can make an argument for ownership being cheaper than renting,  although most of us have convinced ourselves to the point that some own several planes to make it even cheaper.

Renting a 201 will be $200+ per hour, so 100 hours is $20000. Owner yearly expenses should be much less than that except in the most expensive areas.

If you own you need to fly often.

[swapilot48]

I definitely plan to fly often enough to at least make ownership worth it. I’d be interested to hear what people have to say about the cost of ownership differences between the Johnson bar and electric gear!

[Hank]

Just now, ArtVandelay said:

Renting a 201 will be $200+ per hour, so 100 hours is $20000. Owner yearly expenses should be much less than that except in the most expensive areas.

If you own you need to fly often.

Operating costs are the same, whether you fly 1 hour or 200 hours per year--mostly fuel and oil at a fairly consistent burn rate for both. This varies by model.

Owning costs are also fairly constant, but vary by location:  hangar / tie down; annual; insurance; GPS databases; Apple EFB (is Foreflight still iOs only and $200/year?) (I'm a CB with a 'Droid and free Avare); any chart subscriptions; plane and ELT batteries; etc.

Then there are the variables:  repairing things that break; upgrades; updates; new stuff that comes out (like CO monitors!); etc.

Some people throw it all in one bucket, including overnight fees away from home, airport lunches, etc., and divide by hours flown for their personal hourly rate ($250? $300). I add up only the cost of operating my plane--9 gph x $4.50 = $40.50/hour; oil is ~10 hours per quart, call it $1/hour. Tires and batteries last long enough that it's hard to break down by the hour, plus they're inversely related:  fly often, land lots, you'll need tires sooner and your battery will last longer. So I ballpark my operating costs at ~$40-$45/hour. Plus a handful of AMUs to own the plane and keep it airworthy.

[irishpilot]

There are rent vs own calculators out there, and is typically is over 100 hrs per year before it at least breaks even. However, Murphy is a twisted soul and has a law, so just when you think you are gonna have a low cost year, something will break.

 

you'll notice around here we don't refer to airplane costs in thousands of dollars, but in AMUs. 1 AMU = $1,000 USD. 

 

That being said, nothing like owning your own airplane and being the master of your domain. Best of luck!

[Schllc]

There are a few elements to ownership that may be difficult to actually ascribe an actual dollar figure to...

What’s it worth to know a plane is in the mechanical and airworthy condition than you would choose?  
Whats it worth to know it’s being flown properly?  
What’s it worth to be sitting there ready for you, and you alone the moment you want to go?

I am a very particular person, and not sure I want to share the pilot seat with anyone. 
I want my plane to be exactly the way I left it when I last flew. 
I don’t want to wonder if someone maybe ran it hotter or leaner than I would have, or landed hard etc. It’s also a safety and familiarity issue.  
 

If I couldn’t afford to own a plane alone, I am not sure I would own one at all. 
I also know I am probably in the minority here, and lots of the members here have healthy and happy partnerships so it can absolutely be done.  
Considering this perspective, and taking an honest look at your personality type is very important, because owning an airplane is a big mental commitment, that is every bit as important and challenging as the financial. 
Anyone considering this venture should definitely think about all of the implications, not just the obvious ones. 

[carusoam]

Ownership is a pain…

Renting is more painful…

Pick the least pain…

 

If there is enough difference in electric gear vs. manual gear… you will love owning an Ovation… 

Start with a decade of M20C ownership, and then enjoy moving up to the next level, what ever that is for you…

 

A decade doesn’t qualify for forever-plane status… but you will get an Aviation finance lesson that you can use for the rest of your flying life…

Make sure you know what a PPI is, what transition training does, and why hangar queens and barn finds will make you wonder why didn’t get that oft flying M20C while you could…

PP memories only… the Ovation is just a bigger, faster, more modern, M20C…

Best regards,

-a-

[NJMac]

I just sold my manual gear/flaps E model yesterday.  Was a wonderful plane.  They call it an empty nesters plane.  My wife called it our extended honeymoon plane.  

Ownership was cheap.  Like pinch me cheap.  

1 hour ago, Schllc said:

What’s it worth to know a plane is in the mechanical and airworthy condition than you would choose?  

Whats it worth to know it’s being flown properly?  
What’s it worth to be sitting there ready for you, and you alone the moment you want to go?

I am a very particular person, and not sure I want to share the pilot seat with anyone. 
I want my plane to be exactly the way I left it when I last flew. 
I don’t want to wonder if someone maybe ran it hotter or leaner than I would have, or landed hard etc. It’s also a safety and familiarity issue.  
 

If I couldn’t afford to own a plane alone, I am not sure I would own one at all. 
I also know I am probably in the minority here, and lots of the members here have healthy and happy partnerships so it can absolutely be done.  
Considering this perspective, and taking an honest look at your personality type is very important, because owning an airplane is a big mental commitment, that is every bit as important and challenging as the financial. 
Anyone considering this venture should definitely think about all of the implications, not just the obvious ones. 

I quoted this because these echo my thoughts exactly.  The left seat is mine and mine only to fart on.  I knew that since I trim for a hands off approach, 2 rolls of the trim and I was configured for takeoff.  Things like this were unquantifiable when defining the value of owning. 

[hammdo]

My biggest beef with rental - it was gone when I had time to fly or, was down for maintenance. That happen more than I wanted so I bought. My first year cost are more as I wanted a new gps/com and G5. Murphy showed up a couple of times already and that added 5k of unexpected fixes.

I do fly a lot and will have over 100 hrs in my first year of ownership.

second G5 and updating the kx155 are on the plate. KX is acting up so that will be next since I need that for ifr training...

-Don

[Utah20Gflyer]

The thing about buying a plane is you won't know if it is cheaper until your into it a couple years and you are looking backward.   The real reason to buy I think is access and control.   I've only owned for 3 months so far but am loving it.  I've put 50 hours on the plane in that time and on average fly 3 times a week.  When I was renting I was having trouble flying more than a 2 or 3 times a month.   Being an owner I have control over what is done to the plane.  For instance the rental Arrow I was flying didn't have shoulder harnesses which is something I think is important.  As a renter I couldn't really do anything about that.  My Mooney already has them but if it didn't I could remedy that issue.  

[swapilot48]

Thank you all for you help so far. What are some Mooney specific things I should be looking for / paying attention to in listings?

[hammdo]

Outside of avionics, corrosion, and engine time, I'd use the 100 hrs inspection as a guide:

https://themooneyflyer.com/pdf/Mooney100HourAnnualGuide.pdf

this will at least give you an idea.

Vintage Mooneys vs Modern Mooneys have different needs (electric gear vs Johnson Bar etc.)

-Don

 

[Guest]

9 hours ago, swapilot48 said:

Thank you all for you help so far. What are some Mooney specific things I should be looking for / paying attention to in listings?

Airframe corrosion is the single biggest killers of a Mooney airframe.  Almost every other items can be repaired, fuel leaks can range from simple repairs to complete strip and re sealing, engines can be unbolted and repaired or replaced.

If buying a vintage Mooney you should open every panel and pull the interior for complete inspection.

Here is an example of what can go wrong, https://mooneyspace.com/topic/11834-just-learned-my-c-is-junk/

Clarence

 

[A64Pilot]

1 hour ago, M20Doc said:

Airframe corrosion is the single biggest killers of a Mooney airframe.  Almost every other items can be repaired, fuel leaks can range from simple repairs to complete strip and re sealing, engines can be unbolted and repaired or replaced.

If buying a vintage Mooney you should open every panel and pull the interior for complete inspection.

Here is an example of what can go wrong, https://mooneyspace.com/topic/11834-just-learned-my-c-is-junk/

Clarence

 

I’m new here so I hadn’t seen that thread referenced in the link.

‘What was interesting to me is several wanted to know about legal recourse against the A&P.

You don’t have any. The reason is, is there is no such thing legally as a Pre-buy inspection, it’s not defined, I can drive by on a golf cart and do a pre-buy without stopping.

Several times on this forum I have suggested to potential buyers to get an Annual on an aircraft they are buying, and had several people scream that I didn’t know what I was talking about, that their pre-buys are so much more comprehensive than an Annual, Annuals are nothing, you can get one for a case of beer.

‘However an Annual is defined, if an IA accomplishes an Annual on an aircraft that it turns out wasn’t airworthy and the cause of its un-airworthiness was within the scope of an Annual inspection, you have legal recourse, an Aviation Lawyer woud take the case. Everything I saw in that thread was within the scope of an Annual, and was in fact found during an Annaul.

‘So what I will say again, is by all means get a good comprehensive pre-buy, but get an IA to do it, and when it looks like it’s good enough to buy, have him sign off the Annual, because if the pre-buy was a good one, the Annual is done, so get credit for it.

 

Edited June 27, 2021 by A64Pilot

[Guest]

I’ve said it many times here, that during a PPI, all inspection covers that can be opened should be for the inspection.  If doing an Annual Inspection as a PPI which of these panels on a typical Mooney are you going to open?  

Even the Annual required by the FARs says to open all necessary panels etc. It does not say All panels,  I’m guessing that necessary is determined by the IA.

Clarence
 

 

[Sixstring2k]

5 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Airframe corrosion is the single biggest killers of a Mooney airframe.  Almost every other items can be repaired, fuel leaks can range from simple repairs to complete strip and re sealing, engines can be unbolted and repaired or replaced.

If buying a vintage Mooney you should open every panel and pull the interior for complete inspection.

Here is an example of what can go wrong, https://mooneyspace.com/topic/11834-just-learned-my-c-is-junk/

Clarence

 

That was a very sad story to read but full of lessons that should not be forgotten. ( I definitely wont forget) 

[carusoam]

Corrosion is an equal opportunity killer for all planes…

Some planes make it easy to look for…

Some planes hide it deeper than others…

PPIs by an airframe knowledgable mechanic, not any mechanic… is the best defense for your wallet….

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic…

Best regards,

-a-

[A64Pilot]

Two aircraft that get corrosion the worst is a float plane or sea plane used in salt water, and an Ag plane, often the chemicals sprayed are very corrosive. Average GA airplane thankfully only requires normal care, nothing extraordinary.

‘But the death of any airplane is often corrosion, accidents can and are repaired, unless severe, but corrosion is a hidden disease, most don’t know the corrosion status of their aircraft, they are blissfully un-aware.

‘Magnesium is the worst, Magnesium has no place on and average GA airplane in my opinion. Magnesium is why you’ll likely never see a “Sea Apache”

If you have an airplane that you want to keep, especially if it spends a lot of nights outside, have the interior bits fogged, I am a fan of Corrosion-X, however be done with painting for a along time before you fog with it as it will find ways to seep through and make painting difficult. But it will pretty much stop corrosion on a float plane used in Bahamian waters if it’s kept up with, and that warm salt water is about as bad as it gets.

[bradp]

A turbo normalized E or F depending on how much back legroom you require would be a good match for you.  
 

Don’t skip any steps on due diligence. 
 

Buy because you want to buy. It won’t be cheaper but can be safer. the convenience factor is key - I know few if any rental situations that are amenable to taking overnight trips or traveling cross country.   
 

Mx on rental fleets can be full of shortcuts**.  Clubs can be better. I have no idea what the per hr operating cost is for my plane.   It gets its feeding,  watering, barn, and pampering and I just put gas an oil in it.  I try not to look at any costs else the accountant would probably make me put her to pasture. ;-)
 

** I had it when the beat up Pa28r I used to rent in Boston had a dime sized chunk out of the prop.  It needed at least dressing and for sure an A&P to evaluate airworthiness.  The owner / manager told me it was up to me (100hr know nothing PPL) to determine whether I wanted to fly it or not (ie make an airworthiness decision) and refused to call an A&P.  I didn’t rent there again.  Next guy on the schedule probably had to have the same stupid conversation. 

[N9405V]

Booze, blow, and hookers are cheaper in the long run….


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[amillet]

4 minutes ago, N9405V said:

Booze, blow, and hookers are cheaper in the long run….


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I need to see your spreadsheets 

[patriot3300]

https://www.dugosh.com/buying-mooney-aircraft