deciding on a forever plane…

[dominikos]

Folks, 

I have been debating this for a few months and would really appreciate collective perspective on my dilemma about deciding whether I’m sane to commit to create a forever plane with what I have. I’m working with assumption that I will fly it for the next 25 years, or till avg gas stays legal . Whichever is shorter.

For background information.I have ‘78 M20J. 1,200 SMOH, 2,200 AFTT. Had it for a year, plane is great, fun to fly and stable for my ongoing IFR certification. Family can fit, daughter is heading to college in two years anyway. Wife is not too excited about perspective to fly everywhere and we will never fit our dog in a mooney - as we tend to have large breeds. So the plane will do just fine for our (my) needs. 

The panel is IFR certified, upgraded to GNS 430W. It is coming back from annual next week and there is no major issues with the plane itself. But the plane will require investment over time. I would like to upgrade panel ($50K), interior ($15K), new paint ($15K), complete tank reseal ($9K) and eventually will have to do engine overhaul ($30K). I got the plane for $70K. So, when done, I will be looking at $200K ‘78 M20J. When I put it that way, it feels quite insane. But then, I will have exactly the plane I want.

Of course, I could trim expenses. Minimum panel refresh, self installed interior, cheaper paint job. That would probably save me $40K. Or look for a different starting point, but I would not expect to save much.  Perhaps better paint/interior and newer frame.

I would love to hear other’s perspective on how you decided on your upgrades, forever planes and justifying that level of investment. Or not, the opposite and you just either hold off for another plane or keep it bare minimums to keep flying safe.,

I should add one clarification. Can I afford that level of expenses today? No. Can I get there over the next 5 years? Hopefully/probably, yes.

Thanks, Dominik

[Schllc]

I’d say save the money for items that keep you safe first, and whatever’s left goes to cosmetics. 
avionics would be high on my list, but good mechanical, and structural maintenance is paramount. 
I never thought about it simply from what I had in the plane, more so what I got out of the plane. 
Some people take cruises, some buy multiple homes, some eat out every night..

I fly, it makes my world smaller and increases my quality of life. 
It’s hard to ascribe a dollar amount to that, at least for me. 

[McMooney]

I'm kinda in the same boat, 1974E here.  It adoes just about everything I need, turbo-normalized and long range tanks would make it perfect.

needs paint, pair of gi275's and an autopilot. 

I'd say if you have the cash, why not buy a better plane ( ovation, bravo) maybe ????  it's possible you'd get a lot of it back in the future.

that being said, if i painted my E, added a pair of gi275's and maybe a gfc500, given the current market, I wouldn't be out much at all.  too bad the crystal ball fell out the little side window.

I also remember telling my hangar neighbor, save the money for the destination not the trip, he bought an ovation haven't seen him since 8)

 

[carusoam]

Forever planes are nice...

They outlast any pets except possibly turtles and parrots...  there are a few of these around here....

Swapping planes is expensive... and takes a full year to figure out what you actually got...

 

As far as costs and risks go... you have a window before the college bills start rolling in...

The devil you know is much better than the devil you don’t know...

 

The cool part of a forever-plane....  They get updated as if they will last forever...  kept indoors, paint last forever... an engine OH pretty much lasts 20+ years unless you forget to fly it... some of the coolest avionics get surpassed every 20years...

The fancy interior... probably lasts a good 30 years unless you fly it every day...

If you fly every day... you are getting the most value out of your plane... while you pay an outrageous amount just to be soooo mobile.

What budget do you have for your forever plane?  Small, medium, or large?

Once you have a plane already... operations costs difference between and E and a J is pretty much identical....

There aren’t a lot of people flying Long Bodies as a retirement plane...  some, just not a lot...

Stay healthy!

Go Forever-plane!

Best regards,

-a-

[Skates97]

I bought my D for $36k and the plan was for it to be a forever plane from the beginning. It fit my mission then and will fit it through retirement which is hopefully about 12-15 years off. It wasn't everything I wanted but was what I could afford and it has a clean airframe and a decent interior. 

That was 5 1/2 years ago and since that time as I had the extra funds I have overhauled the panel and just had a GFC500 installed. Even though I did all the panel overhaul myself I still have more invested in the plane than the purchase price but I know I'm going to fly it for hopefully the next 25+ years. I don't regret any of the money I have spent as it has been either to increase safety or enjoyment or both. Even if I had to sell in the next couple of years I wouldn't regret it because of the joy it has given me flying. 

[ArtVandelay]

My 78J is my forever plane, I tried to improve it every year, sometimes it was a few AMUs, sometimes more…
Spend when you have it, don’t when you don’t.

[Ragsf15e]

2 hours ago, dominikos said:

Folks, 

I have been debating this for a few months and would really appreciate collective perspective on my dilemma about deciding whether I’m sane to commit to create a forever plane with what I have. I’m working with assumption that I will fly it for the next 25 years, or till avg gas stays legal . Whichever is shorter.

For background information.I have ‘78 M20J. 1,200 SMOH, 2,200 AFTT. Had it for a year, plane is great, fun to fly and stable for my ongoing IFR certification. Family can fit, daughter is heading to college in two years anyway. Wife is not too excited about perspective to fly everywhere and we will never fit our dog in a mooney - as we tend to have large breeds. So the plane will do just fine for our (my) needs. 

The panel is IFR certified, upgraded to GNS 430W. It is coming back from annual next week and there is no major issues with the plane itself. But the plane will require investment over time. I would like to upgrade panel ($50K), interior ($15K), new paint ($15K), complete tank reseal ($9K) and eventually will have to do engine overhaul ($30K). I got the plane for $70K. So, when done, I will be looking at $200K ‘78 M20J. When I put it that way, it feels quite insane. But then, I will have exactly the plane I want.

Of course, I could trim expenses. Minimum panel refresh, self installed interior, cheaper paint job. That would probably save me $40K. Or look for a different starting point, but I would not expect to save much.  Perhaps better paint/interior and newer frame.

I would love to hear other’s perspective on how you decided on your upgrades, forever planes and justifying that level of investment. Or not, the opposite and you just either hold off for another plane or keep it bare minimums to keep flying safe.,

I should add one clarification. Can I afford that level of expenses today? No. Can I get there over the next 5 years? Hopefully/probably, yes.

Thanks, Dominik

My opinion, if it’s big enough, fast enough, capable enough for your mission, keep it.  Improve it as you can, you’ll never be done.  Impossible.  It’s not a destination, it’s a journey.  If you sell it for $125k and buy an Ovation for $200k you’re likely to still need avionics, engine, and paint at some point.  Further, you’ve got more tied up in it.  Oh and you had all the expenses of buying and selling.

 Now if you want a turbo or need to go faster or FIKI, then buy something that’s close to what you want, but there will still be improvements unless you’re buying a new airplane.

[toto]

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

Swapping planes is expensive... and takes a full year to figure out what you actually got...

This.

I’m always kind of surprised when people think selling a plane and buying a different one is a trivial thing. 

If your current airframe meets your forever mission, and it has solid bones, why the heck not upgrade it to your heart’s content. 

Selling a great airplane that has outdated avionics/paint/interior to buy an unknown airplane with a flashy panel is a real dice roll. 

(Obviously if you need an aircraft with different capabilities for a different mission, that’s a whole separate topic.)

[JimB]

I have a 69 F model. It has a little over 1000lb useful load, a 4 cylinder Lycoming engine and gets better gas mileage than my F-150 (plus it goes over 150 mph in a straight line ). I have had her for over 2 years now and on occasion looked around at other aircraft. I just can't find anything better, more efficient or more reliable that I can afford. I didn't buy her thinking she would be a "forever plane", but I am really beginning to think she will be. 

Edited June 11, 2021 by JimB

[KLRDMD]

9 hours ago, toto said:

I’m always kind of surprised when people think selling a plane and buying a different one is a trivial thing. 

It can be. Of course not everyone has the ability to do this effectively and efficiently but it can be done.

In buying, selling and trading airplanes I now have significant negative dollars invested in my current airplane. In my last three trades combined I have an airplane of greater value than the original one plus $60,000 in cash. Overall I'm well above that figure net.

[KLRDMD]

9 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

Oh and you had all the expenses of buying and selling.

You also have the opportunity to make money on each transaction, if you know what you're doing.

[steingar]

The OP has a working plane he can fly for the next 25 years without investing much of anything besides gas and maintenance.  It will be IFR legal for 25 years (unless the Feds radically change the rules, possible).  An airplane needs neither paint nor a good interior to fly.  The OP will eventually run out his engine, but then again if nothing untoward happens that engine can keep flying for some time.  Lycoming IO360s don't magically come from together after a set amount of time.

Now if the OP needs a spanky airplane with a nice interior and an up to date panel to float his boat, well he's going to be spending a crapload of money however you look at it.

[toto]

11 hours ago, toto said:

I’m always kind of surprised when people think selling a plane and buying a different one is a trivial thing. 

 

1 hour ago, KLRDMD said:

It can be. Of course not everyone has the ability to do this effectively and efficiently but it can be done.

There are certainly people who are more mechanically inclined, and people who are better at identifying problem issues in a prebuy. But I honestly think that every used airplane is going to have issues that need to be addressed in the first year or two, and many of those are going to be disruptive in one way or another. 

[Marauder]

Folks,  I have been debating this for a few months and would really appreciate collective perspective on my dilemma about deciding whether I’m sane to commit to create a forever plane with what I have. I’m working with assumption that I will fly it for the next 25 years, or till avg gas stays legal . Whichever is shorter.

For background information.I have ‘78 M20J. 1,200 SMOH, 2,200 AFTT. Had it for a year, plane is great, fun to fly and stable for my ongoing IFR certification. Family can fit, daughter is heading to college in two years anyway. Wife is not too excited about perspective to fly everywhere and we will never fit our dog in a mooney - as we tend to have large breeds. So the plane will do just fine for our (my) needs. 

The panel is IFR certified, upgraded to GNS 430W. It is coming back from annual next week and there is no major issues with the plane itself. But the plane will require investment over time. I would like to upgrade panel ($50K), interior ($15K), new paint ($15K), complete tank reseal ($9K) and eventually will have to do engine overhaul ($30K). I got the plane for $70K. So, when done, I will be looking at $200K ‘78 M20J. When I put it that way, it feels quite insane. But then, I will have exactly the plane I want.

Of course, I could trim expenses. Minimum panel refresh, self installed interior, cheaper paint job. That would probably save me $40K. Or look for a different starting point, but I would not expect to save much.  Perhaps better paint/interior and newer frame.

I would love to hear other’s perspective on how you decided on your upgrades, forever planes and justifying that level of investment. Or not, the opposite and you just either hold off for another plane or keep it bare minimums to keep flying safe.,

I should add one clarification. Can I afford that level of expenses today? No. Can I get there over the next 5 years? Hopefully/probably, yes.

Thanks, Dominik

 

 

I am a 30 year owner of the same Mooney. Back in the early 2000s when the kids were getting too big, I debated long and hard about upgrading planes. But I knew for the 2 or 3 trips a year I needed extra hauling, I could rent or borrow a friend’s plane.

 

Now that the kids are off on their own, my F is the perfect plane for my wife and I as we enter into retirement. Sure, I got tempted when Jerry asked me if I was interested in his Ovation or when I see Danb zipping by overhead at 200 knots. But I came back to reality and realized that the majority of my flying will be up and down the east coast with an occasional trip out west but not over the Rockies.

 

And then there are living examples of how a non-turbo Mooney can be used. I think about Oscar’s trips to Latin America and Stinky Pants (201er) trips to places like the North Pole (far reaches of Canada). ANY Mooney is a capable aircraft.

 

For an upgrade path I would concentrate on the mechanicals first. You don’t want to invest in a plane that will surprise you with an unexpected Mooney killer. I opted to upgrade the avionics next. I did mine piecemeal but if I had to do it again, I would have saved some money by doing all of the avionics at once. As a guy who had to fly NDB approaches for my instrument checkride, I am totally awestruck with the capability of modern avionics. Frigging weather on display right in front me? Wow! Frigging traffic showing up right in front me? Unbelievable! And not to have to manually update 10,000 Jepp plates by hand every 28 days… I’m in heaven (Although I will miss drinking the 6 pack while I sat there pulling and replacing plates).

 

 

 

Even a StormScope output (what an upgrade from my WX-8):

 

 

 

 

My next upgrade was the interior. I went with Bruce’s interior and local shops for the leather seats and carpets. I have seen a Hector’s interior. As well as the $14k price tag. For me it was a trade off. Interiors get a lot of abuse. All in (seats, rugs and Bruce’s interior) was around $7k. Shop around. I found a shop that did the seats for $2k in leather. It was a slow period and they needed the work.

 

 

 

 

When I got to the rugs, the “canned” packages didn’t seem to fit my plane well. So, I bought a roll of paper at Home Depot and made my own templates. I sent them over to the folks Airtex and had them cut and bound. $300. And with the templates, if I trash the Airtex ones, I can have them remade pretty easily.

 

 

 

 

 

My third phase is waiting on Sabremech’s cowl (no pressure David). Once the cowl is on, I will paint the plane and replace the windows.

 

And just a general observation. Upgrading is tempting, but as others have pointed out you may be surprised at what you upgraded to. I’m picky. My wife’s and my life depend on making sure the plane (or to use a Jim Pease phrase “flying lawnmower) is as reliable I can make it be.

 

Good luck with the decision.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[Danb]

3 hours ago, Marauder said:

 

I am a 30 year owner of the same Mooney. Back in the early 2000s when the kids were getting too big, I debated long and hard about upgrading planes. But I knew for the 2 or 3 trips a year I needed extra hauling, I could rent or borrow a friend’s plane.

 

Now that the kids are off on their own, my F is the perfect plane for my wife and I as we enter into retirement. Sure, I got tempted when Jerry asked me if I was interested in his Ovation or when I see Danb zipping by overhead at 200 knots. But I came back to reality and realized that the majority of my flying will be up and down the east coast with an occasional trip out west but not over the Rockies.

 

And then there are living examples of how a non-turbo Mooney can be used. I think about Oscar’s trips to Latin America and Stinky Pants (201er) trips to places like the North Pole (far reaches of Canada). ANY Mooney is a capable aircraft.

 

For an upgrade path I would concentrate on the mechanicals first. You don’t want to invest in a plane that will surprise you with an unexpected Mooney killer. I opted to upgrade the avionics next. I did mine piecemeal but if I had to do it again, I would have saved some money by doing all of the avionics at once. As a guy who had to fly NDB approaches for my instrument checkride, I am totally awestruck with the capability of modern avionics. Frigging weather on display right in front me? Wow! Frigging traffic showing up right in front me? Unbelievable! And not to have to manually update 10,000 Jepp plates by hand every 28 days… I’m in heaven (Although I will miss drinking the 6 pack while I sat there pulling and replacing plates).

 

 

 

Even a StormScope output (what an upgrade from my WX-8):

 

 

 

 

My next upgrade was the interior. I went with Bruce’s interior and local shops for the leather seats and carpets. I have seen a Hector’s interior. As well as the $14k price tag. For me it was a trade off. Interiors get a lot of abuse. All in (seats, rugs and Bruce’s interior) was around $7k. Shop around. I found a shop that did the seats for $2k in leather. It was a slow period and they needed the work.

 

 

 

 

When I got to the rugs, the “canned” packages didn’t seem to fit my plane well. So, I bought a roll of paper at Home Depot and made my own templates. I sent them over to the folks Airtex and had them cut and bound. $300. And with the templates, if I trash the Airtex ones, I can have them remade pretty easily.

 

 

 

 

 

My third phase is waiting on Sabremech’s cowl (no pressure David). Once the cowl is on, I will paint the plane and replace the windows.

 

And just a general observation. Upgrading is tempting, but as others have pointed out you may be surprised at what you upgraded to. I’m picky. My wife’s and my life depend on making sure the plane (or to use a Jim Pease phrase “flying lawnmower) is as reliable I can make it be.

 

Good luck with the decision.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

Hey guy, your plane just gets sweeter every time I see it. Gotta get together lunch whatever..

 

DB

[GeeBee]

Nothing is forever. Life and fortune is constantly in flux and so will your airplane needs.

 

 

[carusoam]

8 hours ago, GeeBee said:

Nothing is forever. Life and fortune is constantly in flux and so will your airplane needs.

 

 

You and Ken must be on the same wavelength...   

-a-