hammdo Posted June 10, 2021 Report Share Posted June 10, 2021 I asked Falcon to add MSF to my insurance for the MSF Safety course per MAPA request. Found out that the underwriter is charging me $250 to add MSF while I'm taking the 3 day course -- yikes! The underwriter called it a 'mid-term adjustment'. I'm doing it this time but, the whole purpose was to let the insurance know I'm TAKING a safety course! MAPA is aware of this now and is letting MSF know -- so, if you intend to take the course, you'll need to add MSF to your insurance. FIND OUT beforehand to see if your insurance is going to charge you. Mine happened to be 10% of my premium ($2500 is what I'm paying this year). Wow... -Don 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwaters Posted June 10, 2021 Report Share Posted June 10, 2021 WOW, are you getting any rate decrease next year (speculation) because you took the course? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammdo Posted June 10, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2021 No idea. Nothing said if it helps or not. It's just a change fee - crazy. I was told it's recognized by insurance but this is rediculous to charge for this event - for 3 days of SAFETY training... Outside of personal training for safety, why take safety training if this happens? Insurance gives you a dis-incentive to take it... -Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parker_Woodruff Posted June 10, 2021 Report Share Posted June 10, 2021 3 hours ago, hammdo said: I asked Falcon to add MSF to my insurance for the MSF Safety course per MAPA request. Found out that the underwriter is charging me $250 to add MSF while I'm taking the 3 day course -- yikes! The underwriter called it a 'mid-term adjustment'. I'm doing it this time but, the whole purpose was to let the insurance know I'm TAKING a safety course! MAPA is aware of this now and is letting MSF know -- so, if you intend to take the course, you'll need to add MSF to your insurance. FIND OUT beforehand to see if your insurance is going to charge you. Mine happened to be 10% of my premium ($2500 is what I'm paying this year). Wow... -Don Most companies don't charge for this. I think the one you're with does, as a general rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammdo Posted June 10, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2021 Appears so as I'm finding out. You'd think they'd understand the request since I'm taking safety training in specific type. -Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Becca Posted June 10, 2021 Report Share Posted June 10, 2021 (edited) So this happened to us when we signed up for the Air Venture Cup also -- they charged us $250 to add EAA (since its an EAA sponsored event, they require being added to participate)). It a 1 day event flown as a cross country flight under the FARs. Like you, this amounts to basically 10% of our premium for a 1 day event. We have never been charged this before when we've had to name an event organizer on the insurance (or either EAA or MSF). Our agent said this seems to be a new thing this year and about half the policies are requiring it now when they have to add an event/program/organization. The AVC organizers said they are getting a lot of complaints about it this year for the first year ever from a lot of participants, some people were just able to change underwriters to one who didn't require it and avoid the fee but we didn't have that option but they agreed they were hearing a lot of reports of it for the first time ever. Not to poke my finger in the eye of anyone around here (well maybe a little), but if I am paying this I sure as heck hope that participants in the caravans are... Edited June 10, 2021 by Becca Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammdo Posted June 11, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2021 3 hours ago, Parker_Woodruff said: Most companies don't charge for this. I think the one you're with does, as a general rule. When one starts it, the rest will probably follow. It's just a matter of time. There will be folks opting to not participate in these events due to these 'management fees'. I imagine the underwriters will charge this fee for 'each occurrence' too.. -Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parker_Woodruff Posted June 11, 2021 Report Share Posted June 11, 2021 4 hours ago, Becca said: We have never been charged this before when we've had to name an event organizer on the insurance (or either EAA or MSF). Our agent said this seems to be a new thing this year and about half the policies are requiring it now when they have to add an event/program/organization. The AVC organizers said they are getting a lot of complaints about it this year for the first year ever from a lot of participants, some people were just able to change underwriters to one who didn't require it and avoid the fee but we didn't have that option but they agreed they were hearing a lot of reports of it for the first time ever. I wish everyone would just get their own insurance and pay whatever their actual exposure is rather than what we've got going on where everyone everywhere wants a Waiver of Subrogation and Additional Insured. There are a few cases where it absolutely makes sense. But many cases where it does not. If someone is going after an organization on the aircraft owner's policy, they're certainly going for the organization's policy as well. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted June 11, 2021 Report Share Posted June 11, 2021 if I drive to a car show... should I get more car insurance for that day? Looks like a great way to keep safety training to a minimum... This makes absolutely no sense. It sounds like you have insurance, to cover your own losses... What would the organization get out of your losses? I would have to vote no on that... Sounds clear to me... Being surcharged for a safety event, keeps people from attending... Some young buck is going to eat Falcon’s lunch one day... Falcon will see it coming... and come up with excuses why it’s not their fault... If the safety organization wants insurance... send them the money to be insured... Please help me understand why anyone would need to pay more to have a qualified CFII on board to fly a certified plane within the proper performance envelope.. while an organization sets up ramp space, and catering..? Something went off the rails... Things are getting more safe... not less safe. PP thoughts only, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbarry Posted June 11, 2021 Report Share Posted June 11, 2021 (edited) This topic reminds me of how other special event insurance works. For example, if a civic club holds a sporting clay event, then the club can purchase special event insurance for the event period. The club pays for the insurance not the participants. Evidently, an aviation training event may fall into the same category. It seems standards of risk associated with special event insurance needs to be reviewed in order to be considered applicable or not to flight training events. For example, permitting or prohibiting certain flight maneuvers/conditions etc should dictate the need for special event insurance. Otherwise, I would think the qualified pilot (CFI, time in make and model...) clause should cover the training just as it does for biennials, instrument proficiency training, etc. Edited June 11, 2021 by cbarry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parker_Woodruff Posted June 11, 2021 Report Share Posted June 11, 2021 Most/all of the reputable safety organizations have their own insurance already. The insistence on being added to the owner's policy (at generally lower minimums) is a bit out of hand. Same can be said for certain brand name FBOs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danb Posted June 11, 2021 Report Share Posted June 11, 2021 On 6/10/2021 at 1:50 PM, hammdo said: I asked Falcon to add MSF to my insurance for the MSF Safety course per MAPA request. Found out that the underwriter is charging me $250 to add MSF while I'm taking the 3 day course -- yikes! The underwriter called it a 'mid-term adjustment'. I'm doing it this time but, the whole purpose was to let the insurance know I'm TAKING a safety course! MAPA is aware of this now and is letting MSF know -- so, if you intend to take the course, you'll need to add MSF to your insurance. FIND OUT beforehand to see if your insurance is going to charge you. Mine happened to be 10% of my premium ($2500 is what I'm paying this year). Wow... -Don Sucks, unreal, my agent knows I generally attend yearly and has the endorsement is included no charge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammdo Posted June 11, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2021 Mine was a 'mid-term flat fee' adjustment. According to Falcon, this underwriter does that. This is my first time taking the course and I did not know I would be doing the course when I got insurance in November of last year... -Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Becca Posted June 11, 2021 Report Share Posted June 11, 2021 18 hours ago, Parker_Woodruff said: I wish everyone would just get their own insurance and pay whatever their actual exposure is rather than what we've got going on where everyone everywhere wants a Waiver of Subrogation and Additional Insured. There are a few cases where it absolutely makes sense. But many cases where it does not. If someone is going after an organization on the aircraft owner's policy, they're certainly going for the organization's policy as well. I agree. At some point it would be cheaper to provide event insurance than 100 pilots paying $250 surcharges. And probably actually safer for the event because they can get the precise coverage they need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricJ Posted June 11, 2021 Report Share Posted June 11, 2021 53 minutes ago, Becca said: I agree. At some point it would be cheaper to provide event insurance than 100 pilots paying $250 surcharges. And probably actually safer for the event because they can get the precise coverage they need. They probably have their own event insurance. If they don't, people should seriously consider whether they want to attend an uninsured event. So either way, if they don't have their own insurance, or you're getting a surcharge on your own to attend, it's not good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammdo Posted June 11, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2021 I'm paying it this one time as I want to take the course for my benefit but, after this one, If I have to add any org again, I'll probably skip the event due to the surcharge... -Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Becca Posted June 12, 2021 Report Share Posted June 12, 2021 4 hours ago, EricJ said: They probably have their own event insurance. If they don't, people should seriously consider whether they want to attend an uninsured event. So either way, if they don't have their own insurance, or you're getting a surcharge on your own to attend, it's not good. i am flying the Airventure Cup which is an official event as part of Oshkosh. It’s an air race - but In terms of flying it’s simply a timed cross country flight flown under the FARs which should be fully covered under my regular insurance. And yet EAA (who surely has insurance) has asked us to get the waiver of subrogation with them named to participate. And for the first time ever that cost us $250 - as it has many other pilots participating. Does this mean I should not participate under your reasoning? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricJ Posted June 12, 2021 Report Share Posted June 12, 2021 43 minutes ago, Becca said: i am flying the Airventure Cup which is an official event as part of Oshkosh. It’s an air race - but In terms of flying it’s simply a timed cross country flight flown under the FARs which should be fully covered under my regular insurance. And yet EAA (who surely has insurance) has asked us to get the waiver of subrogation with them named to participate. And for the first time ever that cost us $250 - as it has many other pilots participating. Does this mean I should not participate under your reasoning? Under my reasoning that decision is entirely up to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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