GeeBee Posted June 9, 2021 Report Share Posted June 9, 2021 As we all know, dealing with Chinese investors is well...... I never really liked Phil Condit, but he is no fool, and when he is one of the investors you might think twice about rolling him. This will not be good for Icon. I was surprised to hear of the interest from Yamaha, although it makes sense. https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/icon-stockholders-sue-to-block-alleged-illegal-technology-transfer-to-china/?MailingID=631&utm_source=ActiveCampaign&utm_medium=email&utm_content=Icon+Shareholder+Revolt%2C+Boeing+CEO+Talks+Aerion&utm_campaign=Icon+Shareholder+Revolt%2C+Boeing+CEO+Talks+Aerion%2C+Wednesday%2C+June+9%2C+2021 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A64Pilot Posted June 9, 2021 Report Share Posted June 9, 2021 The Chinese are slick, seems everyone who sells to them thinks they are going to get some kind of monopoly and large sales, but that never happens. In the end the Chinese seem to always get the best of the US businessmen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyboy0681 Posted June 9, 2021 Report Share Posted June 9, 2021 That is one sexy aircraft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted June 9, 2021 Report Share Posted June 9, 2021 1 hour ago, A64Pilot said: The Chinese are slick, seems everyone who sells to them thinks they are going to get some kind of monopoly and large sales, but that never happens. In the end the Chinese seem to always get the best of the US businessmen. I think you underestimate US businessmen... I think you over estimate Communism and China... China has one thing going for them... They have no problem stealing technology... Why would China buy Icon... what is there that can’t be copied from the purchase of one plane? What would they get from building hundreds of icon 5s... a swarm of flying Skidoos..? How is that freedom to fly thing working out in China? China has their challenges... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghurs China’s idea of stopping the pandemic was to stop people from traveling. Somebody in China must get some form of a tax write-off for a step like this... Looks like a wealthy man’s game of chess... I just stole your pawn... How many Icons have sold since their last accident? How many were sold into China? PP thoughts only, not an international finance maven... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeeBee Posted June 9, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2021 I think the idea is just what the lawsuit alleges. Technology transfer. If the Chinese cannot buy it, they will buy into it, then steal it. Look at the Chinese made MD-80. That was an entree to commercial aircraft production. Reality is, they are where the British were in the 17th century. Spain had all the New World, all the gold and silver that was there. How do you get in on the action? Issue Letters of Marque (privateers) and steal it. "Pirates of the Caribbean" were "legal thieves" before they were outlaws. Soviet Union were so wedded to Communism, they could not stomach using capitalists as canards for state theft so they used the KGB with disastrous results. The Chinese learned from that. Theft, it is a time honored method of international relations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted June 9, 2021 Report Share Posted June 9, 2021 The focus should be on the theft... and putting an end to it... The other focus should be on China... the country... It would help us all to not be lazy when typing the word Chinese when we mean China... There are Billions of very good people that are Chinese... many don’t even live in China... Kind of a clean up request message for MS... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N201MKTurbo Posted June 9, 2021 Report Share Posted June 9, 2021 (edited) 10 minutes ago, carusoam said: The focus should be on the theft... and putting an end to it... The other focus should be on China... the country... It would help us all to not be lazy when typing the word Chinese when we mean China... There are Billions of very good people that are Chinese... many don’t even live in China... Kind of a clean up request message for MS... Best regards, -a- The whole world, well at least the left half of ours seem to be confused about condemning the actions of a government and a race with the same name. Edited June 9, 2021 by N201MKTurbo 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyboy0681 Posted June 9, 2021 Report Share Posted June 9, 2021 First time the Chinese attempted to copy an American design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted June 9, 2021 Report Share Posted June 9, 2021 Just now, N201MKTurbo said: The whole world, well at the left half of ours seem to be confused about condemning the actions of a government and a race with the same name. My request is quite local to MS... Part of my drive to involve as many Mooniacs as possible... And keep everyone comfortable enough to stay involved here... More comfort, more involvement, more inclusion.... more discussion... higher level of safety for everyone... This also works really well outside of MS. Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A64Pilot Posted June 9, 2021 Report Share Posted June 9, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, carusoam said: I think you underestimate US businessmen... I think you over estimate Communism and China... China has one thing going for them... They have no problem stealing technology... Why would China buy Icon... what is there that can’t be copied from the purchase of one plane? What would they get from building hundreds of icon 5s... a swarm of flying Skidoos..? How is that freedom to fly thing working out in China? China has their challenges... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghurs China’s idea of stopping the pandemic was to stop people from traveling. Somebody in China must get some form of a tax write-off for a step like this... Looks like a wealthy man’s game of chess... I just stole your pawn... How many Icons have sold since their last accident? How many were sold into China? PP thoughts only, not an international finance maven... Best regards, -a- Read the article. Thsi is how China does it. held their carrot out to PWC for several Billions for civilian helicopters, just give us a little help and we will buy, buy , buy. Never happened, PWC was stupid enough to believe them, and greed got to them, China has done this over and over to many companies, even farming equipment, irrigation systems etc. ‘PWC made 2 mi, it cost them 75 million in fines, and the Chinese now have sophisticated Military engine management software, that only cost them next to nothing. https://verticalmag.com/press-releases/20959-pratt-whitney-canada-fined-75m-for-selling-tech-to-china-html/ Edited June 9, 2021 by A64Pilot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeeBee Posted June 9, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2021 Did America go to the moon, or did Americans go to the moon? When we landed on Normady, did we fight Nazis or Germans? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N201MKTurbo Posted June 9, 2021 Report Share Posted June 9, 2021 So, when you think of Americans, you don't think about a race, but the people of a country. When you think about Germans, you don't think about race, but the people of a country, but with the east Asian countries they are predominantly populated with a race of people with the same name as the country. It is certainly easy for someone to mistakenly construe a statement about the government of a country to apply to everybody of that race. Heck, when I was in Poland, people treated me rudely because they mistakenly thought I was British because of my race and the language I spoke. After I told them I was from America, they completely changed their attitude. I had the same experience in Singapore. They thought I was Australian, who they don't seem to care for and they changed their attitude when they found out I was from America. I haven't been anywhere where they didn't like Americans, but I haven't been everywhere. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A64Pilot Posted June 9, 2021 Report Share Posted June 9, 2021 Having family that are Jewish, I can tell you that they are offended by those that think “Jewish race” What about “Southern Baptist race” ? Its a religion, not a race, so why do so many speak as if it were? I’ve a friend who’s family fled S Africa many years ago, Blond, blue eyed white guy, who was born in Africa, but has been a US citizen for years. He wonders why so many who have never left the US get offended if he says he’s an African American, because he is, and they are not? BTW, when I speak of China I’m speaking about the Government as I’m certain that their businesses don’t do business over here without a large amount of Government oversight, not any person. A friend was over there supporting the aircraft we sold them, his Visa was about to expire so they said no problem when that happens we put people on a train and let them visit North Korea and that resets them so they can get another visa. ‘They didn’t understand why he didn’t want to go to North Korea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steingar Posted June 9, 2021 Report Share Posted June 9, 2021 6 hours ago, A64Pilot said: In the end the Chinese seem to always get the best of the US businessmen. You mean like Mooney? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A64Pilot Posted June 9, 2021 Report Share Posted June 9, 2021 (edited) 38 minutes ago, steingar said: You mean like Mooney? I hope not, but if you list the number of aviation assets that China owns, or own a large chunk of it’s scary. ‘They obvious implication with Icon without having to read between the lines is that they are diving it to insolvency. ‘My guess is their intent would be to then step in and buy it for pennies on the dollar, financed of course by the other owners who are going to lose their money. Cheaper than buying them out I assume. To quote the guy who ran the last placed I worked into the ground “it’s just business” Edited June 9, 2021 by A64Pilot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeeBee Posted June 9, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2021 I have a friend that works for Israeli Aircraft Industries. His name is Mohammed. If you ask him he will tell you he is an Israeli, because he is a citizen of Israel. My best friend in the whole world, last name is Ng. He is not Chinese. He is an American, his father is more American than any of us. Served in WWII with a Bronze Star to show for it. If I were a citizen of China, I would be Chinese. You are who you join. If you don't want to be that, don't join. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned Gravel Posted June 9, 2021 Report Share Posted June 9, 2021 6 hours ago, GeeBee said: I think the idea is just what the lawsuit alleges. Technology transfer. If the Chinese cannot buy it, they will buy into it, then steal it. Look at the Chinese made MD-80. That was an entree to commercial aircraft production. Reality is, they are where the British were in the 17th century. Spain had all the New World, all the gold and silver that was there. How do you get in on the action? Issue Letters of Marque (privateers) and steal it. "Pirates of the Caribbean" were "legal thieves" before they were outlaws. Soviet Union were so wedded to Communism, they could not stomach using capitalists as canards for state theft so they used the KGB with disastrous results. The Chinese learned from that. Theft, it is a time honored method of international relations. Without comment on political systems or state-sponsored theft, the business model used throughout most of the PRC is drawn from Sun Tzu's "Art of War." Predation is an accepted business practice because it is done to those who have not yet become allies, even business partners. Establishing mutually beneficial relationships is required to precede business deals, unless leverage can be used to prevent running into their lawyers from "Screwem, Dooem, and How." Done in varying degrees in Japan and Korea as well. Depends on where the two business partners come from. This does not apply everywhere for everything, but I have seen it enough to know it exists, including in places like Singapore where the rulers are mainly Chinese. Gam sahab nida. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricJ Posted June 9, 2021 Report Share Posted June 9, 2021 18 minutes ago, Ned Gravel said: Establishing mutually beneficial relationships is required to precede business deals, unless leverage can be used to prevent running into their lawyers from "Screwem, Dooem, and How." Done in varying degrees in Japan and Korea as well. Depends on where the two business partners come from. This is done with great regularity in the US as well, and pretty much every country on the planet. Wherever there are people, this happens. I spent a lot of my career collaborating with researchers across the US and around the globe. One of the large household-name technical companies that I worked for had a lab in Shanghai that I would visit and work with, and we often collaborated, sometimes through that lab, with researchers in other Chinese companies. I also worked with researchers from European, Korean, Russian, Japanese, Canadian, Finnish, Swedish, Norwegian, Indian, Israeli, et al companies, as well as US companies and universities around the world. I didn't see any more threat to IP theft from Chinese collaborators than from anyone else. Sometimes the US Universities are THE WORST in this regard. You have to be careful about doing business or collaborating with anybody, and everybody will, understandably, work their own system to their own benefit. Everybody here does that, too, and we tend to not like it when somebody else's system stops us from doing things we're used to, just like we get upset when somebody else does something that's ordinary to them that we're not used to. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeeBee Posted June 10, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2021 I have been trying to educate my grandchildren about, "what is rightly yours and what is not". A while back I was at the grocery store. When I got to the car with my grandson, I noticed the cashier failed to charge me for the beer on the bottom of the cart. I told him we had to go back and pay for the beer. He wondered why and I told him "it is not ours". He noted they would not know. I noted, that I would know. I said, "What kind of man do you want to be?" Unfortunately, all across the world we seem not to be able to know what is really ours, and what belongs to others. The fact that universities are the worse, does not surprise me as they have left logic and ethics in the rear view mirror a long time ago as an answer to the aggrieved. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Starke Posted June 10, 2021 Report Share Posted June 10, 2021 1 minute ago, GeeBee said: I have been trying to educate my grandchildren about, "what is rightly yours and what is not". A while back I was at the grocery store. When I got to the car with my grandson, I noticed the cashier failed to charge me for the beer on the bottom of the cart. I told him we had to go back and pay for the beer. He wondered why and I told him "it is not ours". He noted they would not know. I noted, that I would know. I said, "What kind of man do you want to be?" Unfortunately, all across the world we seem not to be able to know what is really ours, and what belongs to others. The fact that universities are the worse, does not surprise me as they have left logic and ethics in the rear view mirror a long time ago as an answer to the aggrieved. It is all about the money and pulling one over on your fellow man these days. Sad times. Glad I’m the age that I am, I wouldn’t want to be making a go of it in today’s world. Honesty, Integrity and hard work are for chumps. Lie, cheat and steal, that’s the way you do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned Gravel Posted June 10, 2021 Report Share Posted June 10, 2021 3 hours ago, Tony Starke said: It is all about the money and pulling one over on your fellow man these days. Sad times. Glad I’m the age that I am, I wouldn’t want to be making a go of it in today’s world. Honesty, Integrity and hard work are for chumps. Lie, cheat and steal, that’s the way you do it. Until you have to look at the guy in the mirror. Or maybe that is just me…. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A64Pilot Posted June 10, 2021 Report Share Posted June 10, 2021 “it’s just business” Whenever I would bring up what was being abdicated was just morally wrong, or actually even illegal, that woud be the response I would get. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steingar Posted June 10, 2021 Report Share Posted June 10, 2021 (edited) I dunno, lets say everyone is right, and the Chinese are trying to theive Icon's intellectual property. What are they really getting? A fiberglass hull attached to an airplane engine? I don't think them acquiring any technology that they couldn't buy on the cheap on the internet. Unless someone really thinks there's a national security aspect to a snappy little two seater amphibious aircraft. Edited June 10, 2021 by steingar 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeeBee Posted June 10, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2021 It's the manufacturing processes. Everyone thinks China is this engineering marvel, but when you look behind the glitter, there is no gold. Their "bullet train" has weekly meltdowns and can't keep a schedule. A friend of mine, in real estate development recently toured a "Class A" office tower in Shanghai. The elevators only had doors on every third floor, and for a nation that builds all kinds of electronics, no telco rooms. One office he visited had routers and cables just laying on the floor between desks. The Comac C919 is such as dog is has only one foreign order, GE Leasing and they had to take those so they would buy the Leap engines. GE says they will never leave China because it has not been able to attain an FAA or EASA TDCS. All this despite massive amounts of industrial espionage where they even had to resort like the Soviet Union to state services. One officer of the MSS sits in US jail as a result as well as 3 civilians. Some people I have talked to say the manufacturing quality is poor, even saying, "it looks like it was built with a wood rasp". Basically China is a large industrial park where they lease space and labor. They would like more, but have not the institutional capacity. They are trying to acquire it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A64Pilot Posted June 10, 2021 Report Share Posted June 10, 2021 (edited) I think they are after ownership for way less than if they bought out the other investors. ‘I’ve seen aircraft manufacturers go bankrupt and were bought for not much, and bought free and clear, the new owners didn’t owe the old debtors. The real value of a Certified Aircraft manufacturing facility is its ability to manufacture aircraft, it’s process specs, procedures, quality control etc are all bought off by the FAA, so you could start building a different aircraft right away, if you try to stand up a manufacturing facility it’s years and millions of dollars and everything thing has to meet new standards etc. where older ones are Grandfathered in I don’t know where an Icon falls into this, perhaps the majority holder wants to build other aircraft, I don’t believe the Icon has set any sales records, I think it’s way overpriced and way underperforming, at least compared to what was advertised. Edited June 10, 2021 by A64Pilot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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