Current M20J MSE Values, Upgrade Opinions

[JeremyP]

Hello everyone, I've been watcher of this forum for a couple years now but it's the first time becoming a member and posting.  I live in the Pacific Northwest and have a 1991 M20J.  I've owned this airplane for a few years and acquired it from the previous (2nd) owner who routinely used it to commute between Washington and California.  I purchased it with the idea of fixing it up a little and selling it.  I'm hoping to get some input from the forum members as to what the current M20J values might be, and if upgrading the avionics makes sense.  

A little about the plane:

The bad:  It's lived outside for a number of years, and as a result the paint isn't in great shape.  It's somewhat faded and the fiberglass cowling has several long splits in the paint.   I haven't flown it since I purchased it, but have taken proper care of the engine during that time.  It has the original panel consisting of KCS55 HSI, KAP150 A/P, KLN94 GPS, Dual KX155's, KT76A transponder, ADF/DME, etc.  The windshield is crazed and needs to be replaced.  The interior is the original blue and in decent shape, the plastics could use a freshening.

The good:  It's fairly low time with about 3000hrs and 600hrs left on the engine.  Its has every option that was available as far as I can tell with speed brakes, long range tanks, and TKS anti-ice.  As I mentioned above It's really only had 2 "flying" owners.  

When I purchased it I figured it was worth about $100K in flying condition with the windshield replaced.  My thinking was that while it needed paint and some interior work, these negatives were probably offset by the increased value of having TKS.  Vref was really not much help so I figured the value was most likely the same as a nice condition M20J of similar year with newer paint, original avionics, and no TKS.  In these last years I've watched the price of older 172's double, but I don't think this craziness has hit the Mooney market.  I'd like to get some member's opinions of what the "real" current values are, and if upgrading the avionics makes sense to anyone.  I'm in a unique position in that I own a small avionics shop so I can do pretty much anything I wanted to it at "cost."  However it looks to me like there's an upper limit to the values of the short nose models.  It seems like if I put in $20K in avionics it only makes the plane worth $120K, and that even going all in with a G3X, GFC500, etc maybe not much more.  My current thought is that keeping the original avionics and installing ADSB may be the best ROI for me.

Am I correct in my assumptions?  I'd appreciate any thoughts and I thank everyone in advance for taking the time to respond.

Jeremy

[toto]

TKS is definitely unusual on a J model. An engine that's been pickled for three years is going to be an area of concern for potential buyers (I would probably advise someone to assume that they need a new engine). 

The Mooney market is definitely a seller's market, not sure about the movement relative to a Skyhawk - but vRef isn't much more than a ballpark anyway. 

I wouldn't spend the money on an avionics upgrade just to sell the plane. Even if you get it "at cost," you're not going to make money on it. The big concern would be the engine that's been sitting for three years.

Tbh, in this market potential buyers don't have the luxury of a lot of tire-kicking time. So you might very well get a decent price out of it from a buyer who will take a chance on the engine.

 

 

[MIm20c]

I’d sell it in current condition and price accordingly.  The individual buying it will make it their own and invest a lot of time and money.  The time sitting outside, especially in the PNW is going to be a dealbreaker for a lot of buyers and TKS in a J is not sought after like other models. However, the market is red hot right now so stick a crazy amount on it and see if it moves. 

[A64Pilot]

I’d say wash it, polish it as best you can and fly it. Once it gets 50 hours on it in six months or less, then that not having flown in a long time stigma pretty much goes away. Even 30 or e0 hours in the next 30 days may be enough.

It is in Annual isn’t it?

‘I think you could put $30,000 in avionics and get $10,000 more for it. I have never seen anyone get their money back from avionics, or paint or a new engine. Of course they all add value, just you don’t get it all back much less make money.

However really working to polish what’s left of the paint, detailing the interior all costs noting and yet I think will increase sales price, that an 50 hours in a few months does too. Makes it look well cared for.

Oh, and put it in a hanger, don’t have the prospective buyer drive up and it be tied down outside.

The icing thing you need to find the right buyer, I woudn’t give you a nickel for it, but I don’t live in ice country either

EVERYTHING is selling, of course it won’t last, have you been watching used car prices? Everything is a sellers market now, houses, RV’s boats you name it, now is the time to sell, not buy.

A year from now may be the time to buy, people who think it won’t end or fooling themselves, remember 08?

I’d price it at about 125K myself and take what I could 

Edited June 5, 2021 by A64Pilot

[PT20J]

I believe it’s been pretty well established that selling an airplane is much like selling a house. You will maximize your net proceeds by spending as little as possible to ready it for sale concentrating on cosmetic items and discounting for defects or aging equipment during negotiations. In a sellers market, you can get away with a lot of defects. In a buyers market things like leaking tanks will slow the sale and in bad markets you would be forced to fix major defects to sell it at all.

 

[201Steve]

Get that thing in the air for the sake of your sale and the bird itself. 

[KSMooniac]

I think it needs an annual, ADS-B out at a minimum, and several dozen hours of flying plus fixing what comes up. You didn't do yourself any favors not flying it. I bet you'll find all sorts of things to fix when it gets back in the air. Otherwise, be prepared to let it go at a discount (in today's market, which may be OK for you) to someone willing to fix things.

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[ArtVandelay]

I was just talking to a fellow J owner, he wasn’t selling but a guy came out to him while he was tying down and made him an offer he couldn’t refuse.

I agree, the TKS is not added value for the lower half of the country.

600 engine hours left? Given its history, that’s pretty much a runout, but that’s not necessarily a negative if priced accordingly. Many like the option of controlling the overhaul process.

I think a $100k is about right in this market if plane is actively flying, depending on how bad the windshield is, I’d fix that, since it’s first thing a buyer will see when they sit in your plane.

[Danb]

I’d consider most of above, I’d fly it, polish and touch it up put it in a hanger, but let the buyer know you’d do his avionics at time of purchase at cost, that way he’d get the avionics he wants at your cost instead of 30 Gs of your choice. Then you’d fetch $125 plus avionics install.

 

[carusoam]

Nothing new in the machinery sales world...

The plane will be worth the most in an air worthiness flyable condition...

Upgrading something to sell is great... if you know what that buyer wants...

Since you won’t know the buyer in advance...

Go with what you know...

PP thoughts only, not a sales guy...

Best regards,

-a-

[DCarlton]

I'll speak from the perspective of someone that would be interested in a later model J for the right price.  As an experienced Mooney owner, I would personally prefer to paint it to taste and overhaul the engine and prop after purchase.  I could also take care of the interior myself and choose the colors.  Putting in ADSB would make it immediately flyable so that's a plus and it's relatively easy and inexpensive to install (perhaps a GLD82).  Since you have an avionics shop, why not install a used GNS-530W and perhaps a G5 and try to keep the cost down.   That would be enough to make the plane attractive to me, particularly if it has NDH which seems rare these days.  I personally don't have a strong desire for a lot of glass and touch screens.  Steam gauges, a nice big 530W, and perhaps a G5 and with a JPI engine monitor is enough. 

I'd like to know what Premier is asking for their pristine freshly painted J.  That probably defines the top of the market. 

[M20F]

Long range tanks and TKS make that plane worth quite a bit for somebody looking for those things.  You just have to find somebody looking for that. 

[bmcconnaha]

A pristine  layer J I was told will easily eclipse the high 100s to low 200s.  You will be into it way more to get it there.  I’ll be in mine well over that when it finished.  But, it’s a great plane and fits my mission profile well enough.  Although Jimmy did tempt me with a bravo the other day, lol.  I’d get it airworthy, no more, put 25 hours on it and sell it, assuming the goal Is to get out of it with the least damage to your wallet.  FYI, I paid just over 100k for a nice in annual 1990 j 8 months ago.  Probably put 90k in it since, not even close to being “done”, and I was told it’s probably 170k plane as it sits.  

[will1874]

I'd like to know what Premier is asking for their pristine freshly painted J.  That probably defines the top of the market. 

 

179

 

 

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[will1874]

I've been watching the J market for the last two years. (Only as a prospective buyer, not a broker). I have no idea what the final sales prices are...but in terms of asking price: it seems a J airframe with no damage / corrosion issues (good luck finding that!) is worth 90 - 100. I can't really tell how much airframe hours affect this number. But I would think a 6,000 hour airframe in Tucson with no damage might be equal or better value than a 2,000 hour airframe from Florida. Engine is a lottery play: a buyer had better be ready to pay for an overhaul. Avionics, paint, interior are all a bonus...but also a crapshoot as those three things likely won't be exactly what the buyer wants.

 

 

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[carusoam]

@will1874,

I like the open honesty around here but...

Consider throwing some code onto your numbers...

If you tell the whole world how rich you are...  you will find the spam increases it will crush the conversation...

Dollar signs and extra zeros are unnecessary...

90amu means the same thing...   and attracts much less attention...

Notice how there are very few dollars signs used around here?

PP thoughts only, We are still in the internet...

Best regards,

-a-

[ZuluZulu]

2 hours ago, will1874 said:

I have no idea what the final sales prices are...but in terms of asking price: it seems a J airframe with no damage / corrosion issues (good luck finding that!) is worth [90-100 AMU].

Sounds like you're looking only at mid-80s J's and earlier.  A decent, flying MSE will fetch more than that.

This one is asking 180 and is the same year as mine, but it doesn't have dual G5s, a GTN 750, GFC 500, GNC 255A, GMA 35c, JPI EDM-830, LED nav and landing lights, Monroy tanks, or 500 hours SMOH like mine does, nor has it been as regularly flown.  So if anyone out there wants to make me a crazy-stupid offer.... 

[will1874]

[mention=14079]will1874[/mention],
I like the open honesty around here but...
Consider throwing some code onto your numbers...
If you tell the whole world how rich you are...  you will find the spam increases it will crush the conversation...
Dollar signs and extra zeros are unnecessary...
90amu means the same thing...   and attracts much less attention...
Notice how there are very few dollars signs used around here?

PP thoughts only, We are still in the internet...
Best regards,
-a-

Caruso,

My apologies. The offending posts have been edited and I shall not make the same mistake again.


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[will1874]

Sounds like you're looking only at mid-80s J's and earlier.  A decent, flying MSE will fetch more than that.
This one is asking 180 and is the same year as mine, but it doesn't have dual G5s, a GTN 750, GFC 500, GNC 255A, GMA 35c, JPI EDM-830, LED nav and landing lights, Monroy tanks, or 500 hours SMOH like mine does, nor has it been as regularly flown.  So if anyone out there wants to make me a crazy-stupid offer.... 

ZZ,

I'm looking at everything that presents itself. And my numbers are purely my own observations. But my number is AIRFRAME only. If the airplane has an engine that can be reasonably expected to continue in service then an appropriate value must be added. Avionics are tricky because (as others have noted on this thread) every individual's needs / wants are different and pre-installed avionics, no matter the quality, will likely be viewed as a compromise to the buyer.


FWIW, the listing you linked only has 837 hrs TTSN...airframe and engine. An average of 31 hours per year over its 27 year life. That engine will need some TLC real quick.


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[bmcconnaha]

15 hours ago, will1874 said:

 

179

 

 

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Nice paint, mid time engine.  Original interior and panel though.  I wouldn’t define this as top of the market.  Maybe top of what currently is for sale.