Turn backs and Mooneys

[msh9]

Has anyone here practiced a runway turn back in their Mooney? I've practiced some of the elements of it at altitude but not close to the ground.

 

This video just came out from ASI where they tried turn backs in a couple different planes including a Bonanza. The Bonanza did not make it back to the runway after a simulated engine failure and I wonder if our Mooney's climb and glide profile makes it more similar to the Bonanza.

 

 

[toto]

We’ve had a couple of recent threads on this, probably under the “impossible turn” subject. I’ll see if I can find one. 

[toto]

https://mooneyspace.com/topic/36358-possible-turn/

 

[A64Pilot]

A lot depends on your climb airspeed, Seems everyone around where I live hangs it on the prop for a steep climb angle, while that gives them the most altitude in the shortest distance, it does not give best rate climb, and if they have an engine quit, they have to immediately nose over or they will be mushing if not in an actual stall. In my opinion it’s unsafe unless obstacles require it, and if they do, then your in the dead mans curve, just hope nothing happens.

‘So in my opinion someone who cruise climbs, say about 110k indicated in a J model and likely even faster in one of the big motor airplanes, has a lot better chance of pulling off the impossible turn.

‘It’s all energy management, speed and altitude are interchangeable, but I’d rather have a little extra speed than altitude because it’s human nature if the engine quits to hold attitude for a few seconds, and then your mushing if you were climbing at Vx.

It’s like a stall. if it’s truly a surprise, every pilot will initially try to raise the dropped wing with aileron, which of course is not what you want to do, it’s just muscle memory.

‘But given our better glide ratio, we have a much better chance of pulling it off, in my opinion, this is one of the times you’ll be loving that tendency to float on final

I believe once I get to 500’ at 110 kts I can make it, less than that maybe best to find a spot pretty much straight ahead without trees or between the biggest ones. This is a maneuver once comititted you must make, so give yourself some extra fudge, and don’t forget it’s a downwind turn too, so you need extra speed when that head wind becomes a tailwind.

Go out and practice it in the pattern, with plenty of altitude and watch for a stall in the turn, decide your own critical altitude, but leave some extra for time to figure out and accept that the thing has quit

 

Just watched the video, first a Bo drops like a rock, I’ve followed them and unless I’m way lower I can’t make the approach  with them.

‘I’m also not recommending maintaining 110 kts, but if the engine quits unexpectedly. I bet lunch you won’t be at 110 kts when you accept it.

‘Good video, I expected the RV suffered some from the Hersey bar wind too though.

On edit I disagree with the video, you don’t have to make two additional turns to line up on the runway, your successful in my opinion if you make the airfield. nice open fields with not much to hit. One thing that stuck with me from Military training was always crash inside of the fence, the fire trucks and ambulance can get straight to you, outside of the fence, maybe not.

Edited June 4, 2021 by A64Pilot

[dzeleski]

Most people trying this are doing it wrong. It is not gentle, its not delicate. Its aggressive and dangerous if not practiced.

If you arent banked hard, nose low with a face full of green, with the stall horn chirping, you are doing it wrong and leaving a ton of performance on the table. For my J below 800 AGL I dont even consider it, above it I can pull it off but I may not make the runway. For me Id rather crash within the airport fence then outside of it.

I pull the gear up at 10 feet, flaps at 200 with airspeed at 90 mph, then as I hit 700-800 feet I go into cruise climb 105-120 mph. Under 800 feet im just trying to find a place to stay alive, above 800 im trying to stay alive and maybe save the plane if I can.

At best rate of climb air speeds if an engine quits airspeed drops rapidly, if you dont react near instantly the "improbable" turn becomes "impossible".

[A64Pilot]

3 minutes ago, dzeleski said:

 If you arent banked hard, nose low with a face full of green, with the stall horn chirping, you are doing it wrong and leaving a ton of performance on the table. For my J below 800 AGL I dont even consider it, above it I can pull it off but I may not make the runway. For me Id rather crash within the airport fence then outside of it.

 

You need to go out and do an autorotation with turn in a helicopter, even the Huey that autorotates like a dream, it was as you describe

[toto]

3 hours ago, dzeleski said:

banked hard, nose low

Yes. The big mistake people make is being afraid of the ground rush and loading up the wings with the nose on the horizon and a steep bank. This should be basically a lazy-eight started at the nose-high point. Let the nose drop below the horizon as you roll in your bank. Ending up in an accelerated stall won't help anything..

 

IIACBINYC

[GeeBee]

The nose push over has to put you light in the seat, to unload the airplane or you will not make it.

 

 

[A64Pilot]

1 hour ago, GeeBee said:

The nose push over has to put you light in the seat, to unload the airplane or you will not make it.

 

 

it depends on the entry airspeed, if you can lose airspeed because your carrying a little extra then a less aggressive pitch change is required.

It goes against basic instinct when someone is trying to not hit the ground to push the nose over, but it’s airspeed you need so you have to.

‘I think someone who has some crop duster experience has a advantage here, every turn in a crop duster is actually right at stall. They can stall at 50 mph with an empty hopper. but fill the hopper up and you can easily double the aircraft weight, but you don’t have to meet stall speeds because the hopper can be quickly jettisoned, so many crop dusters when loaded have a higher stall speed then any other single engine aircraft, yet they operate low and relatively slow, and they learn energy management pretty well. The S2R-H80 level stall speed at max gross was 94 mph flaps up. 88 flaps down, so image what it is at a 60 angle of bank.

 

Edited June 4, 2021 by A64Pilot

[GeeBee]

Unload the airplane and the stall speed decreases.

 

[whiskytango]

3 hours ago, GeeBee said:

The nose push over has to put you light in the seat, to unload the airplane or you will not make it.

 

 

This ^^^^^^^^^^

 

[N201MKTurbo]

Go find a sleepy uncontrolled airport and see what you can do. 

Just pulling the throttle back to idle after takeoff is an eye opener. It takes a big push to get it to best glide speed.

Start by getting to best glide speed straight ahead. bring power back in when you get to 200 feet or so. That is the altitude that the FAA thinks you can go around from on most IAPs.

Once the straight ahead thing gets boring, Start recovering to best glide speed in right and left turns. Get a feeling for how far around you can get before you get to the 200 feet. 

After that gets boring, try flying your course reversal maneuver, but stop at the 200 feet altitude until you are absolutely sure you are going to make it. 

When that gets boring, start reducing your engine out altitude, to see how low you can go, but always go around at 200 feet unless the landing is a sure thing.

Of course, all of this is way more dangerous than doing touch and goes.

Mind your airspeed!

Don't gear up!

Edited June 5, 2021 by N201MKTurbo

[whiskytango]

I watched an interesting video that showed a pilot in climb configuration losing the engine (the instructor pulled it) and the pilot kept the same pitch attitude until a stall occurred.  It took only 4 seconds from loss of engine to stall.  When you consider the natural "startle factor" time associated with an engine failure, it is easy to see how pilots come to grief when they lose the engine at low altitude.  The instructor made the point that the aggressive "light in the seat" maneuver to lower the nose and unload the airplane has to be automatic, as soon as the first change in engine operation occurs during climb out. 

[philiplane]

I have taught this maneuver in all varieties of Mooneys. You enter a 55-65 degree bank turn and push forward until you feel no weight on the seat. This unloads the wing and lowers the stall speed so you can complete the turn quickly. I find only a 200 foot loss of altitude is needed to make the 225 degree turn and then another 45 degrees to line up to the runway, or any flat surface on the airport. 

[GeeBee]

That video is by Dan Gryder, a friend of mine. He mentions our mutual friend, Leo Giles who though a. CFI-I was killed because not pushing over fast enough our of KFFC. The idea of unloading the airplane cannot be emphasized enough. I used to practice turn backs in my PA-18 as low as 400' as long as you unload the airplane quickly and turn tightly, you can get away with a very tight turn.

 

 

[jlunseth]

If you are going to practice this, be aware that the "Schiff method" under discussion advocates a takeoff climb at best glide or slightly higher, not at Vx! 

For purposes of the three second pause at the top, climb speed is very important. Climbing at Vx, stopping the engine for three seconds, and holding the nose up is a great way to practice real life, low altitude, unrecoverable stalls. Stall threat is one of the reasons Schiff recommended takeoff climb at a higher airspeed but not the only one. If it helps, my Vx is 71, but I do my takeoff climbs per the Schiff method at 85 kt. until 1,000 ft. That is near the top of the best glide speed range for my aircraft.

[Hank]

Dave Keller was breathing hard and probably sweating despite the cold, but he showed it can be done in a Mooney. At least in a C. Seems like ASF released thus as part of a longer video, this is just his onboard camera without all of the post-incident discussion.

 

[PT20J]

Inflight Metrics is trying to quantify this. Might be fun to get them a bunch of Mooney data and see how we compare with other make/models.

https://www.inflightmetrics.com/Turnback/

Skip

[toto]

If anyone watches the Scott Perdue channel on YouTube, he did a nice recent video on the impossible turn in a Bo. I'll see if I can dig it up. 

ETA: Okay, not quite as recent as I thought. But still..

 

[carusoam]

This topic can’t get covered enough...

The key words I used to search.... light in the seat, or push the yoke....

https://mooneyspace.com/search/?q="Light in the seat"&updated_after=any&sortby=relevancy&search_and_or=and

 

If you haven’t pushed the yoke hard enough to get light in your seat.... do some reviewing....

Turning back is possible... but only under the practiced and right conditions...

We lost a an MSer in a turn back situation... @Canopyman...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

[skykrawler]

Some of his discussion is incorrect.   turn rate = g*tan(bank)/velocity.   Turn rate does increase as speed goes lower.  Maybe Bonanzas are different

The real-world case to test is when the aircraft is at maximum gross weight.  Turn backs are not something for pilots that are marginally competent at maneuvering at low speed. Challenge yourself to a low speed spiraling descent at 45 degrees bank just above stall speed.  Start at 5000, stop at 1500.

[AerostarDriver]

As someone who just had an engine out in my E model and made it back to the runway from the downwind to base turn, I would be surprised if you could make it back. However, I would still want to try to practice it at altitude. Granted, I had the gear down and the flaps at takeoff when I lost power at 1,100 feet AGL with the runway to my 5 O'clock but I ended up threading the gear between the runway end lights.

Some fun details:

• Weight: Max Gross 2525
• Runway DA: 2800
• Type of failure: Excessively rich mixture at Idle, see my post What are your average CHT/EGTs for your IO-360-A1A - Vintage Mooneys (pre-J models) - Mooneyspace.com - A community for Mooney aircraft owners and enthusiasts
• Configuration: Gear down, Flaps Takeoff, 95 MPH at time of loss, Prop wind milling, 1,100 Feet AGL/ 2200 MSL
• Rate of Decent in the turn: 1800 Ft/min @ 105 MPH
• Rate of Decent on short final: 1100 Ft/min @ 90 MPH
• Total time between Engine failure and touch down: 27 Seconds
• Heart rate change: 11 BPM

Adding to the event, the tower did not hear my emergency call, for all I know, I was so busy I may have forget to push the PTT or said it so softly that it was not clear. My wife and passenger did not even know we had lost the engine until we were counting the blades as they went by on roll out. 

 

On another note, love him or hate him Dan Gryder and his preaching of DMMS saved my bacon. Engine loss, unload the airplane, get DMMS, do not slow below DMMS until you have your point made. Also, coming from a flight test background, as soon as you land, start writing down what happen. Then about 2 hours later, on a clean sheet of paper start another new set of notes on what happen. Then do the same thing 5 hours later, then the next day, then 2 days later. After my incident I ended up 13 pages of notes for the whole event plus for the previous 5 interactions with the airplane.

What I learned is I identified the identified the symptoms of my issue 11 flying hours previously when the airplane was struggling to idle on roll out after about 8 laps in the pattern on my 2nd check out flight. My CFI recommended to adjust the idle throttle. When my A&P performed this he told me their was only a 1/4 turn of adjustment left. This should have been a sign to check the idle mixture but we did not think anything off it. Until the event flight, everything had been at low temperatures and relatively low DA like 600 to 900 feet. With an effective DA of 3900 feet, power cut to idle at full rich likely caused the engine to flood out.

Update:

Turns out it was the flow divider had failed and allowed the fuel system to be pressurized with exhaust gasses at low fuel flows.

Edited July 18, 2021 by AerostarDriver
Updated failure type

[N201MKTurbo]

15 minutes ago, AerostarDriver said:

As someone who just had an engine out in my E model and made it back to the runway from the downwind to base turn, I would be surprised if you could make it back. However, I would still want to try to practice it at altitude. Granted, I had the gear down and the flaps at takeoff when I lost power at 1,100 feet AGL with the runway to my 5 O'clock but I ended up threading the gear between the runway end lights.

Some fun details:

• Weight: Max Gross 2525
• Runway DA: 2800
• Type of failure: Excessively rich mixture at Idle, see my post What are your average CHT/EGTs for your IO-360-A1A - Vintage Mooneys (pre-J models) - Mooneyspace.com - A community for Mooney aircraft owners and enthusiasts
• Configuration: Gear down, Flaps Takeoff, 95 MPH at time of loss, Prop wind milling, 1,100 Feet AGL/ 2200 MSL
• Rate of Decent in the turn: 1800 Ft/min @ 105 MPH
• Rate of Decent on short final: 1100 Ft/min @ 90 MPH
• Total time between Engine failure and touch down: 27 Seconds
• Heart rate change: 11 BPM

Adding to the event, the tower did not hear my emergency call, for all I know, I was so busy I may have forget to push the PTT or said it so softly that it was not clear. My wife and passenger did not even know we had lost the engine until we were counting the blades as they went by on roll out. 

 

On another note, love him or hate him Dan Gryder and his preaching of DMMS saved my bacon. Engine loss, unload the airplane, get DMMS, do not slow below DMMS until you have your point made. Also, coming from a flight test background, as soon as you land, start writing down what happen. Then about 2 hours later, on a clean sheet of paper start another new set of notes on what happen. Then do the same thing 5 hours later, then the next day, then 2 days later. After my incident I ended up 13 pages of notes for the whole event plus for the previous 5 interactions with the airplane.

I did my commercial in my Mooney and had to demonstrate a spot landing from a power failure at mid field downwind. 

Why were you going so fast? The airplane will go a lot further at best glide speed. Were you on fire? My experience is that getting to best glide speed immediately will extend your glide. maneuvering during slow flight is a private pilot skill.

[AerostarDriver]

5 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I did my commercial in my Mooney and had to demonstrate a spot landing from a power failure at mid field downwind. 

Why were you going so fast? The airplane will go a lot further at best glide speed. Were you on fire? My experience is that getting to best glide speed immediately will extend your glide. maneuvering during slow flight is a private pilot skill.

Book best glide in my 71 E is 105 MPH prop wind milling, 100 MPH prop stopped. DMMS is 105 MPH as well. If you know a better speed I am more then happy to add it to my list.

Edited June 7, 2021 by AerostarDriver

[Shadrach]

Just now, N201MKTurbo said:

I did my commercial in my Mooney and had to demonstrate a spot landing from a power failure at mid field downwind. 

Why were you going so fast? The airplane will go a lot further at best glide speed. Were you on fire? My experience is that getting to best glide speed immediately will extend your glide. maneuvering during slow flight is a private pilot skill.

My best performance practicing this maneuver has always been to unload the wing while transitioning to a steep bank then pulling to just before stall (I get the horn well before the buffet).  I shoot for best glide after my turn.