RobertGary1 Posted June 2, 2021 Report Share Posted June 2, 2021 After my Garmin dual AHRS failure apparently caused by a pitot issue I've been thinking about more independent backup systems. Anyone look into these? https://shop.levil.com/collections/all-products/products/bom?variant=120422727706 -Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaynePierce Posted June 2, 2021 Report Share Posted June 2, 2021 It has gotten great reviews so far. I've not seen anything negative. Lots of info on YouTube. I have no experience with the device nor do I know anyone that is using it though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Browncbr1 Posted June 3, 2021 Report Share Posted June 3, 2021 (edited) I have a gdl39 3D interfaced with an aera660 interfaced with the GTN.. if my G5’s and GTN go dark, I retain all navigation and syn vision all on independent batteries. It’s been good for the past few years. GS and feel is an ok proxy for AS... I’ve had two pitot failures on a baron that knocked out the Aspen PFD. I know how you feel. Edited June 3, 2021 by Browncbr1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted June 3, 2021 Report Share Posted June 3, 2021 The Levil guys have made some nice instruments... But for this one, you may need to bolt on one of those Cessna struts to mount it to... Kind of draggy... But, if two indicators in the panel let you down... and a third self propelled one will keep the sun coming through the windshield.... or pick one of those devices that has been used as a back up system on strutless Mooneys... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steingar Posted June 3, 2021 Report Share Posted June 3, 2021 I have a Stratus ADSB receiver in the cockpit coupled with my iPad running Foreflight. If the other stuff goes TU I can get a panel on the iPad. Haven't flown behind it yet (haven't really flown behind anything, I'm still VFR) but it's there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertGary1 Posted June 3, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2021 1 hour ago, steingar said: I have a Stratus ADSB receiver in the cockpit coupled with my iPad running Foreflight. If the other stuff goes TU I can get a panel on the iPad. Haven't flown behind it yet (haven't really flown behind anything, I'm still VFR) but it's there. I worry about the mulitple seconds required to bring it up on the iPad. Without attitude things happen rapidly. -Robert 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted June 4, 2021 Report Share Posted June 4, 2021 The fun thing about IR training.... Simulated Instrument failures... This is where the almost good ideas get fine tuned.... The gravity on sorta good ideas increases... Portable good ideas... suddenly get less portable as their wiring gets sturdier and mounts get firmer... it’s not like you get a five minute warning to get your stuff together... Or it only fails for a few seconds every now and then... It either works or it doesn’t... Very few people want to have “doesn’t” in IMC... Sooo.... if you want to know how good your portable instruments really are... set them up and let them run... Let them run on every flight... in all kinds of weather... with bumps and without... And compare that to your TC... at the same time... Chances are you will have something like a D10 in your panel, or a life saver AI... before you finish your IR training... The last hope for TCs in my area of the Mooney world... was a B pilot who lost vacuum above the clouds, over NYC.... he was following the TC to descend through the clouds... that didn’t work... It Was extra tragic because there were many VFR airports not that far away... So many good instruments available... now more than ever... Proof that the FAA allows us to get away with some crummy ideas every now and then... PP thoughts only, not an instrument guru... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A64Pilot Posted June 4, 2021 Report Share Posted June 4, 2021 Partial panel in an airplane isn’t that hard, practice it until you become comfortable with it. ‘My Father trained for IFR flight with something I haven’t seen since then, you put red plastic on the windows and wore red sunglasses, they both were polarized so that when you had the glasses on, you couldn’t see out at all. US army completely covered the windows and chin bubble of the Huey’s on the right side for instrument training. PIC seat on a helicopter is the right seat. Foggles are cheap and easy, but you really don’t get the full experience. Of course some will argue ‘I wonder why the polarized plastic sheets aren’t still used? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted June 4, 2021 Report Share Posted June 4, 2021 46 minutes ago, A64Pilot said: Partial panel in an airplane isn’t that hard, practice it until you become comfortable with it. ... Foggles are cheap and easy, but you really don’t get the full experience. I made my own foggles to wear over my glasses. Buy a pair of Visitor safety glasses and sit in your plane with them on. Use a sharpie to draw a line on the lenses along the edge of the panel. Apply masking tape from the line to the bottom of the lenses, on the inside. Then sandblast the inside all the way around, including the side shields. Remove tape, wash 'em off and now you too have custom foggles that won't let you cheat! Bonus: now scratches on the outside won't damage the texture and create blinding starbursts when you turn across the sun. It's hard to accidentally scratch the inside . . . . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertGary1 Posted June 4, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2021 4 hours ago, A64Pilot said: Partial panel in an airplane isn’t that hard, practice it until you become comfortable with it. ‘My Father trained for IFR flight with something I haven’t seen since then, you put red plastic on the windows and wore red sunglasses, they both were polarized so that when you had the glasses on, you couldn’t see out at all. US army completely covered the windows and chin bubble of the Huey’s on the right side for instrument training. PIC seat on a helicopter is the right seat. Foggles are cheap and easy, but you really don’t get the full experience. Of course some will argue ‘I wonder why the polarized plastic sheets aren’t still used? The real issue is that things like the g5 and gi-275 are certified to replace all that so there is no partial panel. If they go out it’s no panel. So looking at something to back them up. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbridges Posted June 4, 2021 Report Share Posted June 4, 2021 I guess anything can happen, but my Aspen max systems are supposedly independent of each other, and the mfd can revert to a pfd. It did require yet another antenna on the fuselage. I have a stratus/foreflight as a backup to the backup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricJ Posted June 4, 2021 Report Share Posted June 4, 2021 4 hours ago, A64Pilot said: ‘I wonder why the polarized plastic sheets aren’t still used? Probably because they interfere with outside visibility, especially at night. 18 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said: The real issue is that things like the g5 and gi-275 are certified to replace all that so there is no partial panel. If they go out it’s no panel. So looking at something to back them up. Especially for the occasional panel that only has two gi-275s. Cover one up? Revert the other one? I have a single G5 at the HSI position and took my IR checkride with that configuration. The DPE failed my AI during an LPV approach and I just reverted the G5 to AI function, but after only a short while I decided I liked the HSI better during an approach and switched it back to HSI. The DPE was fine with all of that. But since the HSI doesn't show airspeed or altitude or climb/descent information, inclinometer, turn, etc., I needed all that other stuff there to be able to use the HSI. I think the same is true with the Gi-275, the HSI doesn't show that stuff, so if the PFD/AI gets failed, you pretty much have to revert the other one and do not have the option of using HSI plus everything else. That's probably not a huge deal, but the more I hear about the various failure/reversion modes for glass panels and the Gi-275, the more I think a panel of air instruments plus a TC and two G5s is actually a really good setup. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy95W Posted June 4, 2021 Report Share Posted June 4, 2021 1 hour ago, EricJ said: the more I think a panel of air instruments plus a TC and two G5s is actually a really good setup. Totally agree. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCarlton Posted June 4, 2021 Report Share Posted June 4, 2021 7 minutes ago, Andy95W said: Totally agree. Exactly. Except I'm keeping my DG for a while too, to drive my Brittain Autopilot that still works fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingDude Posted June 4, 2021 Report Share Posted June 4, 2021 2 hours ago, RobertGary1 said: So looking at something to back them up. It is my understanding that when you have a glass cockpit, you need to have back-ups. Steam-gauge airspeed indicator, altimeter and variometer are direct back-ups for those functions on the glass cocpit. The "separately powered" turn coordinator backs up the artificial horizon, and the compass backs up the directional. I think this is how it goes, it was in an article with CFR references, but honestly I don't recall which CFRs they were, so I'm going to leave it as "my humble opinion". Question for the more knowledgeable people here: can you have a single G5 with the magnetometer which you use for AI, airspeed, altimeter, variometer, turn and slip as well as monitoring the heading and track at the top, and then back up this single G5's DG function (shown as the heading) only with the compass? That would exonerate one from having a second G5 or steam gauge DG? Obviously, you keep steam-gauge airspeed indicator, altimeter, variometer, turn-coordinator and the compass. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlunseth Posted June 4, 2021 Report Share Posted June 4, 2021 3 hours ago, RobertGary1 said: The real issue is that things like the g5 and gi-275 are certified to replace all that so there is no partial panel. If they go out it’s no panel. So looking at something to back them up. That's the problem. And Steingar, that Stratus backup is no good. Valid data depends on the sending unit remaining absolutely fixed in place. If you have it laying on your glareshield, on the floor under the seat, attached to the window with a suction cup, etc., and it moves at all, you have nothing. That "backup" system also needs to be calibrated at the beginning of each flight and it then needs to remain powered on for the duration of the flight. Slightly more effective would be a Flightstream, I have the 210 and the 510 is also supposed to provide AHRS data, they are both fixed in place, the 210 by being installed in the avionics and the 510 by being in the 650/750. That also needs to be calibrated at the beginning of each flight. The Stratus is not backup. Especially not in turbulence. I tried ten dozen ways to mount that thing by means other than running screws through the plastic housing and into the aircraft somewhere, and none were 100%. You have 178 seconds to live. So we have been convinced to spend all this money to take out vacuum systems only to find out the replacements are unreliable, and when we took out the vacuum system we took out the partial panel instruments also, so now we have a compass and maybe an altimeter unless we took the altimeter out also. Great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vance Harral Posted June 4, 2021 Report Share Posted June 4, 2021 3 hours ago, RobertGary1 said: The real issue is that things like the g5 and gi-275 are certified to replace all that so there is no partial panel. Nitpick: the G5 is only certified primary for AI, DG, and TC. The fact it happens to display ASI and ALT (and VSI) data as well is ancillary. That data is legally just "backup" for your existing certified ASI/ALT, so you can't remove those legacy instruments when you install, say, dual G5s. The GI-275 has broader certification. But it's unclear to me if a single GI-275 running in an EFIS mode meets the requirements for all of AI/DG/ASI/ALT, or if you have to have multiple GI-275s in various modes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vance Harral Posted June 4, 2021 Report Share Posted June 4, 2021 16 minutes ago, jlunseth said: I tried ten dozen ways to mount that thing by means other than running screws through the plastic housing and into the aircraft somewhere, and none were 100%. The most important part of this sentence is, "I tried ..." Backup instruments that you haven't actually practiced flying with are not useful backups, and should not be relied on or even used at all in an actual instrument failure emergency. There is always a learning curve. Case in point: the GTX-345 in our airplane has a built-in ADAHRS, and you can bring it up on an iPad via Foreflight or other EFB applications. The first time I tried to fly with it in a simulated AI failure state, I found it difficult. Partly that's because the ADAHRS isn't actually very good. Its software equivalent of "pendulous vanes" is laggy, and it's not unusual for it to indicate a few degrees of bank when the aircraft is actually straight and level. That's probably not going to kill you, but the dissonance between attitude and heading change is weird, and I wouldn't want to be dealing with it for the first time ever in an actual instrument failure scenario. The other thing that took some getting used to is that when your AI is backed by a synthetic representation of the world instead of simple blue/brown, objects displayed on the AI move, even when you're holding straight and level. Anyone with a synthetic vision device knows this, but if you've never seen it before it takes some getting used to. In summary: almost any backup can be useful, but don't count on it if you haven't actually practiced with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJBrown Posted June 5, 2021 Report Share Posted June 5, 2021 (edited) What I learned getting my IFR, A turn coordinator is a lifesaver in unusual attitudes. It is a no thought react only indication. If you find yourself upside down and sideways you stomp the ball and pull level slowly. An AI might not save your life. Too much thinking. Especially if tumbled. Early one morning (in the dark)at 12-14,000 over the plains heading east. I must have bumped the auto pilot disconnect. Didn’t feel it going over. All of a sudden I was in an “unusual attitude” Training kicked in. Pull power Stomp the ball to level wings Pull, not hard enough to pull the wings off, but pull smoothly to level. reset the auto pilot and slow the heartbeat. Edited June 5, 2021 by RJBrown 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M20F Posted June 5, 2021 Report Share Posted June 5, 2021 On 6/4/2021 at 10:32 AM, RobertGary1 said: The real issue is that things like the g5 and gi-275 are certified to replace all that so there is no partial panel. If they go out it’s no panel. So looking at something to back them up. This is why I never understand people pulling the vacuum system or steam gauges. Go the G5 route and move the classic stuff to the right side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertGary1 Posted June 5, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2021 17 minutes ago, M20F said: This is why I never understand people pulling the vacuum system or steam gauges. Go the G5 route and move the classic stuff to the right side. 100% agree. I kept my vacuum attitude and had a dual AHRS failure with my gi-275. Why ditch a system that is cheap and light? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted June 5, 2021 Report Share Posted June 5, 2021 3 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said: 100% agree. I kept my vacuum attitude and had a dual AHRS failure with my gi-275. Why ditch a system that is cheap and light? I pulled my vacuum system when I got the dual gi275 but I kept the rest of the 6 pack classic and also I kept my lifesaver electric attitude (just to the right off the picture). Besides smart to keep all the classic backups I think it looks nicer. I think this pic is neat since you see a bit of the terrain below on the svt despite the clouds. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M20F Posted June 5, 2021 Report Share Posted June 5, 2021 (edited) 25 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said: 100% agree. I kept my vacuum attitude and had a dual AHRS failure with my gi-275. Why ditch a system that is cheap and light? I kept my prehistoric standby vacuum system as well which prior to G5 Nirvana actually supported me through some bush league IMC to land one day. Edited June 5, 2021 by M20F 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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