mooneyflyer Posted May 30, 2021 Report Share Posted May 30, 2021 Does anybody know the cost of replacement biscuits/donuts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vance Harral Posted May 30, 2021 Report Share Posted May 30, 2021 About $130 at Aircraft Spruce these days: https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/lgpages/lord-m20-mooney.php If you hunt around a little, you can find slightly cheaper prices, but there's not much variation. These things go up about $10 apiece every year. The first time we replaced ours in the mid-2000s, they were about half what they cost now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammdo Posted May 31, 2021 Report Share Posted May 31, 2021 @Gertwas doing OPP versions: (OPP ->owner produced parts) -Don 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammdo Posted May 31, 2021 Report Share Posted May 31, 2021 https://avunlimited.co/product/mooney-landing-gear-shock-disk/ shipping is a killer from South Africa - I think that is where they're located... -Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevenL757 Posted May 31, 2021 Report Share Posted May 31, 2021 1 hour ago, Vance Harral said: About $130 at Aircraft Spruce these days: https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/lgpages/lord-m20-mooney.php If you hunt around a little, you can find slightly cheaper prices, but there's not much variation. These things go up about $10 apiece every year. The first time we replaced ours in the mid-2000s, they were about half what they cost now. Yeah, they aren’t cheap…never have been. My Spruce cost is $120.67/ea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeeBee Posted May 31, 2021 Report Share Posted May 31, 2021 I just bought 11 of them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted May 31, 2021 Report Share Posted May 31, 2021 11 hours ago, hammdo said: https://avunlimited.co/product/mooney-landing-gear-shock-disk/ shipping is a killer from South Africa - I think that is where they're located... -Don These appear to be labeled as owner produced parts. I’ve little doubt that they’re equal quality to the PMA versions but I am betting that many A&Ps would think twice before installing them given that they’re made in S Africa and advertised for sale on a website. Might be able to make these legally and meet the letter of the regulations but it sure seems to violate the spirit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A64Pilot Posted May 31, 2021 Report Share Posted May 31, 2021 (edited) Be careful, just buying something does not make it an owner produced part. The intent of an owner produced part is for parts that are no longer available and the owner does some research and maybe finds the print for a part that outlines materials and dimensions etc and takes these drawing to a machinist or similar and has the part produced or produces it themselves. However the FAR doesn’t stipulate that the part is no longer available. ‘Merely purchasing the part doesn’t cut the mustard, you would have at least needed to supply the dourometer of the elastomer or dimensions or something. My prediction is that this will get the attention of the FAA unapproved parts program https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/safety/programs/sups/ Edited May 31, 2021 by A64Pilot 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted May 31, 2021 Report Share Posted May 31, 2021 A64, This is getting closer than you think... The tech discussion you mentioned has been going on around here for probably more than a year... With technical samples exchanged... and the SA resource is a rubber parts manufacturer... Dimensions, chemistry, durometer, color... What else does a donut manufacturer need to have to manufacture a functionally identical donut? The conversation started because Mooney Mites had no resource for their donuts at all... none. The price on donuts is beyond ridiculous... how many hands have touched the $5 device to get its price bumped up to $130? Its not like quality has somehow improved through the years... or through the touches... There is something technically un American going on with the price of donuts lately... $10 per year for stagnant rubber technology? This doesn’t deserve commercial protection of any kind... The donuts that were designed for my M20C in 1965... are still in use for my M20R in 2021... they weren’t that good for the M20C... putting hundreds of pounds more on them didn’t make them better at supporting an M20R... The last discussion for increasing UL for late model Mooneys is to possibly add a couple of hundred more pounds on these same donuts... Please outline what would be needed to make the OPP for this better... too many good Mooneys are sitting on old donuts because of price... PP thoughts only, not a rubber chemist... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted May 31, 2021 Report Share Posted May 31, 2021 36 minutes ago, A64Pilot said: Be careful, just buying something does not make it an owner produced part. The intent of an owner produced part is for parts that are no longer available and the owner does some research and maybe finds the print for a part that outlines materials and dimensions etc and takes these drawing to a machinist or similar and has the part produced or produces it themselves. However the FAR doesn’t stipulate that the part is no longer available. ‘Merely purchasing the part doesn’t cut the mustard, you would have at least needed to supply the dourometer of the elastomer or dimensions or something. My prediction is that this will get the attention of the FAA unapproved parts program https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/safety/programs/sups/ I keep saying someone should put firestone airbags in place of the discs. For those times the landing is not quite how we intend. That said Supplying dimensions, description, and a functionally equivilant part number should be enough for OPP. If you call Mooney can you get the part? It's $50 a puck and $80 shipping. https://avunlimited.co/shop/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbridges Posted May 31, 2021 Report Share Posted May 31, 2021 Does anyone know of someone that has used the ones from South Africa? I've seen this kicked around a time or two but never heard of any first hand experience. Even with $80 shipping, it would save you quite a bit if you were replacing just the mains, let alone all 3 wheels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted May 31, 2021 Report Share Posted May 31, 2021 We have at least one person that reported their initial experience... I have no idea how to start searching for that... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted May 31, 2021 Report Share Posted May 31, 2021 Would also want to include this spec on the order. "The rubber compound used in the J-11968-14 Lord disc is an elastomer blend type MX with a deflection of 1.0 inch for 3000lbs for a stack of eight discs. It is a multiple compound product with Natural Rubber and Polybutylene with excellent penetration and adherence to the metal discs. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_elliott Posted May 31, 2021 Report Share Posted May 31, 2021 17 hours ago, mooneyflyer said: Does anybody know the cost of replacement biscuits/donuts? If you decide to attend the Mooney Summit Phil, Parker Lords has donated a set to our silent auction. The cost will be whatever the most generous person to assist downed Mooney Pilot's families bids on them. This could be you.... register HERE 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted May 31, 2021 Report Share Posted May 31, 2021 Looks like they are going for 150 to 175 per disc for the Lord from the traditional aviation sources. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted May 31, 2021 Report Share Posted May 31, 2021 (edited) My guess is the South African Producer made one set for someone using an original part and specs to pattern the owner produced version. I’ve emailed him asking what he would ask for from an owner to meet 4 hours ago, A64Pilot said: Be careful, just buying something does not make it an owner produced part. The intent of an owner produced part is for parts that are no longer available and the owner does some research and maybe finds the print for a part that outlines materials and dimensions etc and takes these drawing to a machinist or similar and has the part produced or produces it themselves. However the FAR doesn’t stipulate that the part is no longer available. ‘Merely purchasing the part doesn’t cut the mustard, you would have at least needed to supply the dourometer of the elastomer or dimensions or something. My prediction is that this will get the attention of the FAA unapproved parts program https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/safety/programs/sups/ The company producing these parts is not eligible for PMA because the FAA does not certify manufactures outside of the US unless there is no burden to the administration in doing so. (23.303(g). Certifying a South African supplier most certainly is a burden to the administration. I don’t think the FAA will be the problem as long as the owner provides the South African company with one of the line items listed in the clarification made by Ass Chief Council of Regulations Donald Byrne in 1993. Meeting the reg requirements isn’t the hard part. Finding an A&P that’s not skittish about installing it is the hard part. The graybeard maintenance professionals of today are different from the graybeards professionals of 20 years ago. Maybe with good reason. I’m only 47 but I can remember a time when low risk items we’re treated as....well, low risk items. This is not to say that people were violating the regs. This is to say that verifying specs or P/N and an ops check were for adequate for installation. Those days are on the way out. Many IAs I know in my age group or younger are unwilling to determine the airworthiness of any part. No tag=not airworthy. A few years back I found a lot of NOS Klixon switches with the part numbers stamped on the side. They were either new or somebody with a lot of time on their hands went to the trouble to recondition them and find factory boxes for them. A friend who is an IA said they were paper weights. I queried 5 more IAs in a group text. Two out of five said the same. All the guys that refused were under 50 all the guys that said all clear with an ops check were over 50 (one of which is a PMI for a Midwestern FSDO). I think that things are going to get more difficult and more expensive unless the FAA starts focusing their efforts on ways to streamline and reduce costs to general aviation operators. Things like lightbulbs and sun visors really don’t need a heavy regulatory hand but here we are....In many cases the current state of affairs is both decreasing safety and increase in costs. Edited May 31, 2021 by Shadrach 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted May 31, 2021 Report Share Posted May 31, 2021 (edited) Just heard back from Gert of AVunlimited in S.Africa. He responded in 2hrs. See exchange below. I’ve attached the form used for OPP. Hello, Can you give me an estimate on transit times to the eastern US? I am interested in Shock Discs for my Mooney. What do you need from me to meet the OPP requirements? Thanks! Ross Hi Ross Approx 5 working days after dispatch it will arrive. Dispatch will be 14 - 20 days after order. If you click on the disc image on the webpage it will open a description page where you will find a downloadable pdf page which needs to be completed and sent to me. This original will serve as the instruction and must be handed to your Maint org. Best Regards Gert Edited May 31, 2021 by Shadrach 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammdo Posted May 31, 2021 Report Share Posted May 31, 2021 That request should make it OPP. I still have my drawings for the up/down lock blocks for OPP part... -Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A64Pilot Posted May 31, 2021 Report Share Posted May 31, 2021 (edited) This explains a owner produced part pretty well.’ https://www.aviationpros.com/home/article/10387511/owner-produced-parts-how-they-affect-maintenance There is no way your making something already manufactured, in serial production and stocked for sale, an owner produced part. An owner produced part is forbidden to be sold, and these clearly are for sale. Maybe you could by taking a standard part or even a different aircraft part and having it modified. ‘You guys can of course do as you please, but I wouldn't try calling this an owner produced part, I’d try something else. Now in my opinion , not that my opinion means anything, but I bet an FAA inspector so long as you didn’t get all know it all on him, would be far more likely to look the other way on the Mite parts. ‘Why? because the factory or any other FAA approved part simply doesn’t exist, you have no other choice, other than trying to cook some donuts up in your kitchen, the safest thing is the South African parts. On the Klixon CB’s that didn’t have certs, I’d use them, I’d call them standard parts as I believe they are. Unless Mooney’s Klixon CB’s we’re built to a different spec than the standard ones,which surely they weren’t, but if they were then that would make them non standard Edited May 31, 2021 by A64Pilot 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will.iam Posted May 31, 2021 Report Share Posted May 31, 2021 Wow this would be really great if AI signs off on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A64Pilot Posted May 31, 2021 Report Share Posted May 31, 2021 12 minutes ago, Will.iam said: Wow this would be really great if AI signs off on it. An IA won’t or wouldn’t get involved except during the Annual, unless the A&P is also an IA. Read the article I linked to, as the owner / producer you need to make that write up in the logbook that is in the article. Again with the opinion, but in my opinion as an A&P with that logbook entry it’s not my job to determine if you really produced the part or not, your signing a legal document that you did, and in my opinion at that point my job is to ensure the airworthiness of the part, not it’s origin. ‘You covered the origin question with the logbook entry. ‘Just don’t come to me with a box of donuts telling me there is no paper work because you made them yourself. I can’t “buy off” the parts that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 1, 2021 Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 2 hours ago, A64Pilot said: This explains a owner produced part pretty well.’ https://www.aviationpros.com/home/article/10387511/owner-produced-parts-how-they-affect-maintenance There is no way your making something already manufactured, in serial production and stocked for sale, an owner produced part. An owner produced part is forbidden to be sold, and these clearly are for sale. Maybe you could by taking a standard part or even a different aircraft part and having it modified. ‘You guys can of course do as you please, but I wouldn't try calling this an owner produced part, I’d try something else. Now in my opinion , not that my opinion means anything, but I bet an FAA inspector so long as you didn’t get all know it all on him, would be far more likely to look the other way on the Mite parts. ‘Why? because the factory or any other FAA approved part simply doesn’t exist, you have no other choice, other than trying to cook some donuts up in your kitchen, the safest thing is the South African parts. On the Klixon CB’s that didn’t have certs, I’d use them, I’d call them standard parts as I believe they are. Unless Mooney’s Klixon CB’s we’re built to a different spec than the standard ones,which surely they weren’t, but if they were then that would make them non standard How does McFarlane Aviation call an engine control cable “owner produced” when they clearly stock them for ready sale? Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Chub Posted June 1, 2021 Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 A64 Pilot quoted this in a previous post. "An owner produced part is forbidden to be sold, and these clearly are for sale." I feel this is a misinterpretation of the regulations. When the regulation speaks of an owner produced part is not for sale it is referring to the owner having had the part made then selling that part to another individual. The owner produced parts are sold and sold to the owner. It would be nice if McFarlane made my OPPs and didn't charge me but they were clearly sold to me and sold as OPP. The issue of having completed parts for sale as OPP is what I believe what A64 Pilot was trying to discuss. I have seen many ways to work around this issue like leaving off the marking of the part and it can sit on the shelf as an uncompleted part. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricJ Posted June 1, 2021 Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 13 minutes ago, M20Doc said: How does McFarlane Aviation call an engine control cable “owner produced” when they clearly stock them for ready sale? Clarence They do exactly as shown above. You sign a drawing (that they supply if you send them a part to copy) confirming that the dimensions shown are what you want and then they send you a cable built to that drawing. Whether they pull one off the shelf that fits the drawing or specially make one to the drawing I don't know, but the result is the same. This conforms to the requirement in AC 20-62E 4.n by providing manufacturing data for production. For nearly any OPP the careful inspection of the part prior to installation in order to assure suitability for installation (e.g., compliance to the supplied data) arguably participates in quality inspection and supervision of production. The above drawing of the gear puck appears to me to fulfill the requirements in the same manner that McFarlane uses. There are also the parts substitution guidelines provided in AC 23-27 regarding parts for vintage aircraft, which applies to Mooneys since the TC came out prior to 1980. These guidelines provide means for substituting parts where original parts are no longer available, with many examples where only a logbook entry is needed as a minor modification. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takair Posted June 1, 2021 Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 Here is a link to the FAA interpretation. There are a couple of areas that may touch on this situation. From my own previous discussions with the FAA, one of the questions with regards to “sale” is really “intent to sell to the certified world”. One question with owner produced parts might be....were they manufactured before the order was placed or only subsequent to the order being placed under the conditions within the letter of interpretation? It seems, if they are stocked...it might be pushing the spirit of the law. Link below from a Cardinal group.... http://www.velocolutions.com/FAA-owner-manufactured-part.pdf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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