Another gear-up this afternoon

[Hank]

I've often heard that the last thing to do before exiting the cockpit after a gear up landing is to move the selector to Down . . . .

Always thought it was a (poor) joke . . . .

[CoffeeCan]

On 5/30/2021 at 5:30 AM, carusoam said:

First one for the spring flying season?

Lets all do a Gumps check...   

 

1) Gas...

2) Under carriage...

3) Mixture...

4) Prop...

5) Switches...

 

Well....   looks like he got the first one right.

Not enough definition to the pic to tell how bent the prop is...

When idle, prop tips usually get bent back...

If generating power, tips grab the ground and pull forwards... bending the forwards.

 

PP thoughts only...

Best regards,

-a-

I know that’s the correct GUMPS checklist, but in my head it’s really:

Gear down

Undercarriage down

Make sure the gear’s down

Positively sure the gear’s down

Spouse reassures me that the gear’s down

[carusoam]

CC,

Great cockpit resource management!

Alway use whoever you have in the cockpit to help out.

Best regards,

-a-

[jlunseth]

3 hours ago, dominikos said:

@carusoam, what is a thumb nail test?

Feel with your thumbnail to determine if the gear down lock block is in place or if it has flipped forward, unlocking the emergency gear deploy system. May prevent the regular system from dropping the gear. Rear seat passengers have been known to stick their feet between the seats and inadvertently disengage the lock block. Should be on your checklist to check before takeoff and before gear deployment in preparation for landing.

[CoffeeCan]

2 hours ago, jlunseth said:

Feel with your thumbnail to determine if the gear down lock block is in place or if it has flipped forward, unlocking the emergency gear deploy system. May prevent the regular system from dropping the gear. Rear seat passengers have been known to stick their feet between the seats and inadvertently disengage the lock block. Should be on your checklist to check before takeoff and before gear deployment in preparation for landing.

I never thought of that, but I will be adding it to my pre-takeoff checklist.  Thanks!

[dominikos]

2 hours ago, jlunseth said:

Feel with your thumbnail to determine if the gear down lock block is in place or if it has flipped forward, unlocking the emergency gear deploy system. May prevent the regular system from dropping the gear. Rear seat passengers have been known to stick their feet between the seats and inadvertently disengage the lock block. Should be on your checklist to check before takeoff and before gear deployment in preparation for landing.

Thank you, adding to my checklist as well. 

[jlunseth]

One of several pre-flight items Bruce Jaeger taught me, credit goes to Bruce. He is the guy who told me to put it on my checklist.

[FlyingDude]

13 hours ago, jlunseth said:

Feel with your thumbnail to determine if the gear down lock block is in place

Would you guys mind posting a picture of the "gear down lock block" for those of us with Johnson bars?  Thanks

[Oldguy]

19 hours ago, PeteMc said:

Can you run this by me one more time?  What am I missing?

Gear handle was DOWN.  The mishap was on TO (takeoff??) but he exited the plane????

If it was on takeoff, I'm guessing you're saying that he lifted off or bounced off the runway and the gear retracted and he settled back down onto the runway?  But I'm still missing the circuit breaker being popped.  So if the there is no power to the motor, how did the gear retract?  Did they swing freely somehow so that they were not still locked in the down position?

Let's do a little hypothetical timeline: gear switch is in the UP position due to whatever. Or not. Taxi out, start your roll, give a light pull, plane starts to lift. If you pull the gear switch up a little early (or if it is already in the UP position), the gear retracts, and plane settles back onto the runway (even just a little and then the prop is no longer making power). And, as @Hank writes just after your original post, you pull the gear lever down before you turn off the master, the CB will pop since - obviously - the gear cannot deploy.

Or, worst case scenario I have seen discussed here, you put the gear switch back down as the plane is settling onto the runway, and the gear partially deploys as the plane grinds to a stop. CB will still pop, and from what I have read, you now get to repair/replace many parts not normally damaged in a normal gear up.

[A64Pilot]

3 hours ago, FlyingDude said:

Would you guys mind posting a picture of the "gear down lock block" for those of us with Johnson bars?  Thanks

See, I thought it was the cap on the Johnson bar they were talking about.

‘I include my Spouse in the gear down check, I’m so paranoid I like to get the gear down prior to getting in the pattern and things get busy, her job is watch the indicator on the floor, I’ve gotten her paranoid to so she pesters me about the gear before I’m ready, but I don’t fuss as I don’t want her to stop.

‘I’ve seen so many good pilot’s mess this up. It’s like ground looping I’ve been told eventually everyone will, I haven’t yet so I guess I worry about that too.

[A64Pilot]

Description:

AIRCRAFT WAS DEPARTING RUNWAY AND LANDING GEAR COLLAPSED AND INCURRED A PROP STRIKE, ALABASTER, AL.

 

Interesting how different people read the same thing and come to different conclusions.

‘I read that and thought he was pulling off the runway after landing, but of course you depart the runway on takeoff too.

Some people I have been told will put the gear switch up prior to take off, cause it looks cool to suck the gear up so soon. My Father tod me that as a little boy when we were watching a Baron depart long ago. For a squat switch airplane a bump in the runway and your sliding, I guess a Mooney could hit the magic AS and slide cause there isn’t quite enough lift to fly or maybe not enough elevator trim or pull?

Not saying that’s what happened, but as a Mooney owner I’d rather it be pilot error as opposed to broken airplane.

Edited June 2, 2021 by A64Pilot

[A64Pilot]

2 hours ago, Oldguy said:

 

Or, worst case scenario I have seen discussed here, you put the gear switch back down as the plane is settling onto the runway, and the gear partially deploys as the plane grinds to a stop. CB will still pop, and from what I have read, you now get to repair/replace many parts not normally damaged in a normal gear up.

1983 or so at Hunter Army Airfield in Savannah.

On a check ride taking off from I believe St. Simons airport, the instructor pulled an engine, the pilot elected to land on remaining runway, but the gear were only partially down on landing.

‘This was a U-21, a Queen Air with King Air engines and as the mains stick out so much on one it’s my understanding that a gear up gets the nose landing doors and props and that’s about it, but land with them half way down and everything gets torn up, I mean really torn up. We spent more than a year repairing that airplane, 025 was its last three of the serial number.

On it’s test flight in a stall it would break hard one direction every time, apparently the wing center section was slightly bent. We took it apart and shipped it off to Corpus Christi where I assume it was parted out.

[carusoam]

14 hours ago, FlyingDude said:

Would you guys mind posting a picture of the "gear down lock block" for those of us with Johnson bars?  Thanks

Dude,

This probably has the latest...

-a-

 

[PeteMc]

On 6/2/2021 at 11:47 AM, Oldguy said:

Let's do a little hypothetical timeline: gear switch is in the UP position due to whatever. Or not.

That was my question reading the update on the incident.  And re-reading it again...  it said the gear handle was down AFTER he exited the plane.  So it is quite possible the handle was Up and he put it back Down.

As others have said, some folks like to live dangerously with the position of the gear switch or how quickly they bring up the gear.  If that's what happened here, he learned why it is REALLY REALLY DUMB to do it.

[Rick Junkin]

My training was to verify two positive indications of a climb (altimeter and VVI) before reaching for the gear handle/switch. You'll see my gear hanging as I accelerate in ground effect and retract after I've pitched up at climb speed. Just sharing the technique that's worked for me.

Cheers,
Rick

[A64Pilot]

I learned from the 210 and it’s goofy slow gear to not retract until I was at a point to where landing on the remaining runway wasn’t possible, I don’t mean fully stopped either.

‘So I have carried that over to the Mooney, there just isn’t any good reason that I can see to get the gear at first indication of positive rate, maybe that’s taught with the theory that everyone eventually ends up in a twin?

 

[kellym]

On 6/1/2021 at 1:49 PM, CoffeeCan said:

I know that’s the correct GUMPS checklist, but in my head it’s really:

Gear down

Undercarriage down

Make sure the gear’s down

Positively sure the gear’s down

Spouse reassures me that the gear’s down

You have the correct Gumps. The other stuff isn't real important unless the gear isn't down and you need to go around. Gas...you shouldn't be so low that it matters. Mixture isn't big issue unless you go around....ditto prop. Seat belts, don't matter unless you have an upset(wake turbulence, etc) or crash. Whatever you do, spouse needs to be comfortable that the gear is down. In manual gear Mooneys it is a yank on the handle downwind, base, final and short final. Manual gear Mooneys all need the down lock block replaced if it is original.....why risk enough slop that handle pops out on a bump? Less than 1/2 AMU to change. Hard to believe it has been 5 yrs since I sold my E model and started flying my fixed gear Mooney (aka RV-10).

[FlyingDude]

@A64Pilotbefore Mooney, I was used to piper arrow and c172rg gear, which take 6-10 seconds to retract/extract. I used to fly out of relatively long runways, so waiting till the end of useable runway was the key. Now flying a mooney with 1-2 second cycle time out of a 2300' runway surrounded by trees and buildings, things are different. I clean the plane relatively fast, first flaps then gear, because, at least in my mooney, climbing at Vy, let alone Vx, overheats the cylinders, and VLE is 100kts whereas VFE is 87kts... I retract the gear as soon as the runway disappears ahead of me, which may be 200/300' AGL... I just want to gain altitude ASAP...

I also practice power off 180s once in a while. I think the 12:1 glide ratio is true when it's clean, but once you drop the gear, the descend/fall rate approximates that of an Arrow. The official power off 180 maneuver calls for gear down when initiating the maneuver, but I think it makes more sense to wait until you're stabilized on final in a Mooney. Even in an arrow, I'd wait till starting my final turn. Of course, I don't redact the FAA pts/ACS, so I teach it per faa rules with a student, but that's my humble 2 cents.

[ilovecornfields]

I did all my power off 180s with the gear down for what that’s worth. You still have several seconds to start the turn and easily make the runway.

I pull the gear up with positive rate not because I think I’m in a twin but because if I lose the engine I’m worried about survival and not the plane. Landing with the gear up is expensive but easily survivable (and has a shorter “rollout”). If the engine quits 30 seconds after I rotate I would expect to be higher if the gear was retracted 15 seconds earlier and have more options. Maybe I’m wrong. I hope never to test my theory. 
 

Only time I’ve had an engine problem on takeoff was in an Arrow and I already had the gear up. I was able to land on an intersecting runway and put the gear down right before touching down. 

[FlyingDude]

3 hours ago, ilovecornfields said:

power off 180s

Yeah, variations on the same theme... I'm Europe p-off 180s can begin anywhere in the pattern. I've had instructors pull the throttle in crosswind. But you're required to put wheels down on the first 1/3 of the runway. Here, you have 200' to touchdown but they pull the throttle abeam of the numbers only. My point is, if you have a plane that drops like a rock with the gear down, you might want to retard the gear deployment as long as it's safe. 

As for gear up after takeoff, I hear your point. 

Nice discussion though. Thanks

[afward]

Personally I raise the gear as soon as positive rate is confirmed (J-bar).  While I recognize that makes landing on the rest of the runway harder, that's such a short window it's not worth optimizing.  I much prefer adding energy as quickly as I can to minimize the length of the "no turnbacks" window.

[Guest]

On 6/4/2021 at 11:26 PM, PeteMc said:

That was my question reading the update on the incident.  And re-reading it again...  it said the gear handle was down AFTER he exited the plane.  So it is quite possible the handle was Up and he put it back Down.

As others have said, some folks like to live dangerously with the position of the gear switch or how quickly they bring up the gear.  If that's what happened here, he learned why it is REALLY REALLY DUMB to do it.

Early gear retraction is a habit I’ve noticed in Mooney pilots.

Clarence

[EricJ]

Keeping the gear down, at least in my J, has a very negative effect on climb rate and acceleration.   Since both speed and altitude help a ton when things go bad, I pull the gear up as soon as positive rate is established, which doesn't take very long.

There have been many cases where somebody puts the gear handle up before the takeoff roll starts so that as soon as the weight comes off the gear starts coming up.    If you're used to doing that (which is a bad practice anyway), and you do that in an airplane with an airspeed switch which trips before the airplane is ready to lift off, you'll have exactly this problem.

Long ago I worked for somebody who was an ex-fighter pilot who said that this happened a lot in F-86s (people put the gear handle up before takeoff roll) and then a bump or something caused the gear to come up too early.   Apparently this is not a new practice. 

[PeteMc]

Knowing nothing about carrier takeoffs, I could see it as a possibility.  I'm *assuming* the catapult has to put some downward force on the plane and I'm also assuming that even in rough seas the planes do not bounce when they launch. 

So when the weight comes off the wheels they're either flying or something happened and they're about to get wet.

[Hank]

I do like my Owners Manual says to do:

This is often around treetop level. But like I learned to do on a go around or missed approach, I also confirm positive rate, then move the fat white knob on the panel. When I use flaps, I raise them when higher than obstacles that I'm concerned about.